1. #17021
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    What a waste!

    If you ignore that the investigation did find that many members of Trumps staff were seeking collusion
    Or that the investigation also found that Russia tampered with the election.
    Or that the investigation also found many abuses of power in the government.
    Or that Barr is a stooge who wont release the report and is known for in the past saying the investigation was worthless.

    TOTAL WASTE. WITCH HUNT. BUZZ WORD BUZZ WORD BUZZ WORD.
    Russian tampering is only related to Trump collusion if anyone actually discovered that it was the case, which was one of the points of the Special Counsel in the first place. Discovering Russian interference without collusion was always the likely outcome, and you ought to be pleased that while Trump is a blowhard and a bad person, he's not a foreign agent.

  2. #17022
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    What does it matter? He's still not getting charged with any crime. And just another opportunity for Trump to spin it and gaslight everyone.
    You don't think it's relevant that the standard of proof of "beyond a reasonable doubt" might not have been met (and again, we don't actually know this because of who barr is and his beliefs about the limits of presidential power), but the standard of "clear and convincing" (or preponderance of the evidence) could be met w/out charges being filed? You don't think your average voter would want to know that? How convincing would the evidence have to be to affect your vote?

    For that matter, how convincing would the evidence have to be for you to support impeachment and conviction? It shouldn't be "beyond a reasonable doubt." The penalty for impeachment and conviction isn't imprisonment. The impeached party would still get another trial after they've been impeached before they serve time. In civil court, the standard of proof isn't "beyond a reasonable doubt" or even "clear and convincing." It's just preponderance of the evidence. I urge you to remember that the process of impeachment is a political process. With bill clinton there was clearly proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" that he committed perjury. Because the perjury was about something so benign as to whether or not he had an affair, he wasn't convicted.

    So I ask again, how strong does the evidence need to be that the president of the united states colluding with foreign states (or committing obstruction of justice that benefits a foreign state) for help to get elected and selling our foreign policy for you to not want that liability as president? This isn't as if it's through carelessness, but by corrupt intent. It's not something minor, like an affair, but the legitimacy of our democracy itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  3. #17023
    Quote Originally Posted by Vatrilian View Post
    "The Special Counsel did not find that the Trump campaign, or anyone associated with it, conspired or coordinated" with Russians who worked on those hacking efforts, according to Barr's letter, "despite multiple offers from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign."
    The fact that his dumbass son, campaign manager, and son in law took that meeting in Trump Tower, based on getting dirt on Hillary Clinton, means that Barr is a Trump knob gobbler.

  4. #17024
    Quote Originally Posted by Vatrilian View Post
    Mueller left it up to the discretion of the attorney general and his deputies. Barr is not a henchmen or hoax, but a well respected attorney general with a distinguished career. That's how these things work. You need an underlying crime for obstruction. There is no crime here. This was a total hoax and I am glad the President is vindicated.
    Yes, he's a henchman. Trump keep replacing his AG until he found one who would be willing to interfere with the investigation. Barr himself said the president is above the law, which pretty much states how things were going to turn out.

  5. #17025
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    Really? Where does it say that? Because he absolutely tried to.
    In the report? Mueller basically didn't draw a conclusion. He didn't find Trump guilty nor did he find innocent.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

    Retired <Dreamstate> Gehennas

  6. #17026
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    Mueller was uncertain on the charge, he did not say Trump obstructed justice, nor did he say he didn't. I'm sure people will argue this to death.

    So anyway Mueller, with all the information presented to him made it clear: Trump did not collude with Russia.
    Mueller didn't make a "standard prosecutorial judgement." We don't know if he was certain trump obstructed justice or not.

    So anyway, barr, with all the information presented to him made it clear: trump is not exonerated in the report.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  7. #17027
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    In the report? Mueller basically didn't draw a conclusion. He didn't find Trump guilty nor did he find innocent.
    You said that without a shadow of a doubt that Trump didn't collude with Russia, then you post this that Mueller didn't draw a conclusion, so which is it?

  8. #17028
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    The fact that his dumbass son, campaign manager, and son in law took that meeting in Trump Tower, based on getting dirt on Hillary Clinton, means that Barr is a Trump knob gobbler.
    That is not illegal. Believe it or not taking a meeting with someone from Russia is not illegal. This report is pretty cut and dry there was no collusion period. There was no dirt transferred in the meeting and was a ruse in order to reverse sanctions on adoptions. This was a giant hoax pushed by the Democrat party and a willing media.

  9. #17029
    Pandaren Monk Sinyc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,928
    Quote Originally Posted by Vatrilian View Post
    Mueller left it up to the discretion of the attorney general and his deputies. Barr is not a henchmen or hoax, but a well respected attorney general with a distinguished career. That's how these things work. You need an underlying crime for obstruction. There is no crime here. This was a total hoax and I am glad the President is vindicated.
    If there was any doubt in Muellers mind, KNOWING that his report will first go to the DOJ and AG Barr, why wouldn't he just recommend charges there? The only possible explanation is there wasn't enough actual evidence to show they willingly and criminally obstructed justice. Unless Mueller is playing 9D chess with us all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    The fact that his dumbass son, campaign manager, and son in law took that meeting in Trump Tower, based on getting dirt on Hillary Clinton, means that Barr is a Trump knob gobbler.
    Just because somone on TV said meeting or interacting with Russians/citizens is literally the worst thing a person could do, doesn't mean it's true.
    If Jr knew this person was a Russian Agent or acting on behalf of the Russian government then he would already be in jail.
    Last edited by Sinyc; 2019-03-24 at 11:02 PM.

  10. #17030
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Mueller didn't make a "standard prosecutorial judgement." We don't know if he was certain trump obstructed justice or not.

    So anyway, barr, with all the information presented to him made it clear: trump is not exonerated in the report.
    "After reviewing the Special Counsel’s final report on these issues… Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and I have concluded that the evidence developed during the Special Counsel’s investigation is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense."

  11. #17031
    Quote Originally Posted by Vatrilian View Post
    That is not illegal. Believe it or not taking a meeting with someone from Russia is not illegal. This report is pretty cut and dry there was no collusion period. There was no dirt transferred in the meeting and was a ruse in order to reverse sanctions on adoptions. This was a giant hoax pushed by the Democrat party and a willing media.
    The barr letter pretty clearly says the report does not exonerate him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  12. #17032
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinyc View Post
    If there was any doubt in Muellers mind, KNOWING that his report will first go to the DOJ and AG Barr, why wouldn't he just recommend charges there? The only possible explanation is there wasn't enough actual evidence to show they willingly and criminally obstructed justice. Unless Mueller is playing 9D chess with us all...
    Mueller doesn't have that power. Mueller was following the rule of law.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  13. #17033
    Quote Originally Posted by Veknazel View Post
    Innocent until proven guilty
    Guilty until proven innocent
    Guilty even after proven innocent! F*ck yeah, these are the true liberal democratic values!
    Hiliary says, "Hello".

    Even after being found innocent many times over the emails it was still used against her in the 2016 elections. As will this be used against Trump in the 2020 election, Karma

  14. #17034
    Quote Originally Posted by Vatrilian View Post
    "After reviewing the Special Counsel’s final report on these issues… Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and I have concluded that the evidence developed during the Special Counsel’s investigation is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense."
    Barr doesn't think a sitting president can commit obstruction of justice period because of his views on the extent of presidential power. He doesn't believe a president can act with "corrupt intent" because of how the constitution empowers him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  15. #17035
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobb View Post
    Hiliary says, "Hello".

    Even after being found innocent many times over the emails it was still used against her in the 2016 elections. As will this be used against Trump in the 2020 election, Karma
    Probably because the emails were real.

  16. #17036
    Quote Originally Posted by Vatrilian View Post
    That is not illegal. Believe it or not taking a meeting with someone from Russia is not illegal. This report is pretty cut and dry there was no collusion period. There was no dirt transferred in the meeting and was a ruse in order to reverse sanctions on adoptions. This was a giant hoax pushed by the Democrat party and a willing media.
    Taking a meeting, based on getting dirt on a political opponent ABSOLUTELY is illegal. And the report doesn't say there was no collusion, Mueller didn't make any recommendation.

    Just because there was no dirt given, doesn't make it not illegal. Let's take your shitty suggestion and say that if someone tries to kill someone else's wife, and misses with the shot, and gives up when he is caught. Does that mean that attempted murder isn't illegal? The fact that they were discussing sanctions alone makes it a Hatch Act violation because they weren't even sworn in as government officials.

  17. #17037
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Barr doesn't think a sitting president can commit obstruction of justice period because of his views on the extent of presidential power. He doesn't believe a president can act with "corrupt intent" because of how the constitution empowers him.
    Again:
    "Our determination was made without regard to, and is not based on, the constitutional considerations that surround the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting president."
    I am so glad this attorney general is so thorough.

  18. #17038
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    In the report? Mueller basically didn't draw a conclusion. He didn't find Trump guilty nor did he find innocent.
    Mm, the specific quote is "while this report does not conclude the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him." Which could be read a couple ways:

    1) Trump didn't do anything against the letter of the law.
    2) Trump didn't do anything, period; you can't exonerate someone who is not a criminal.

    In any case, the Barr letter also suggests that there was no conspiracy, which is one of the primary asks of the special counsel: "In cataloguing the President's actions, many of which took place in public view, the report identifies no actions that, in our judgment, constitute obstructive conduct, had a nexus to a pending or contemplated proceeding, and were done with corrupt intent..."

    In any event, we'll get to see most or all of the report. "As I have previously stated, however, I am mindful of the public interest in this matter. For that reason, my goal and intent is to release as much of the Special Counsel's report as I can consistent with applicable law, regulations, and Departmental policies."

  19. #17039
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobb View Post
    Hiliary says, "Hello".

    Even after being found innocent many times over the emails it was still used against her in the 2016 elections. As will this be used against Trump in the 2020 election, Karma
    Yeah but no one believes this nonsense because it never happened. Hillary actually had a server in her closet ran by some fly by night company in Colorado.
    Socialism is the only economic system that requires billionaires to exist.
    https://i.redditmedia.com/P8UE8DAGeB...c1ef120404fdbd
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    This term isn't far off, though it would need the word "scientific" in front of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    Accessibility, ownership, availability; these are all essentially the same thing.

  20. #17040
    Quote Originally Posted by Vatrilian View Post
    Probably because the emails were real.
    Yet, nothing came of it. But millions wasted in investigations and no indictments. Meanwhile we have several guilty pleas and several indictments that are still going through the courts.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •