1. #17061
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    As a liberal I find the conclusion to all of this and some of the replies in here really embarrassing. Some of you sound like jaded ex-lovers and doing the same exact thing the right was doing by dragging on unnecessary investigations, trying to grasp at any straw possible. I honestly think the Democrats could save some face by releasing a statement thanking everybody, accepting the results but not concede on any core policy issues that matter to their base. Just take your lumps and move on.
    Who's demanding the Mueller investigation be started up again? I have literally not seen that from anyone.

    If you're referring to other investigations, such as those by the SDNY, those don't have anything to do with Mueller's team, and are into matters Mueller wasn't investigating and did not have the mandate to look into, so there's no reason to take issue with them moving forward.

    If you were under the impression that the Mueller investigation was going to put an end to all investigations into Trump and co, then you never really understood what his team was looking into or what the boundaries were on that investigation. Mueller's team wrapping up was never going to be the end of this. It's a first step.

    Yes, I'm sure there is probably some level of corruption here but so what?
    If nothing else, the rest of the world is watching the USA pretty closely, and stuff like this is giving us very little reason to put our faith into a nation that used to be one of our staunchest allies. It's exposing the rot and how deeply it's set. That Trump won't be removed is more evidence towards that.

    Someone squeaky clean being elected won't eliminate the rot that's been exposed; that's just slapping a new coat of paint over it. And if the USA isn't going to burn that rot out and clean their shit up, they can't be trusted as an ally, and need to start being seen as a potential major international threat.

    And this isn't just politics. This rot goes deep. It's a rot in the American people, in the American ideal. You're learning that you really aren't the people you were striving to be, not the leaders of the free world, not the bastion of democracy and freedom that the whole world can see as a shining example of those ideals. That's over. Not ending, it's already done. You've lost that shine. And you did it to yourselves.

  2. #17062
    This is basically you saying that even if there's "clear and convincing" proof the president conspired with a foreign power to undermine our democracy, we shouldn't do anything about it.
    There isnt any proof.

    Muellers report says so.

  3. #17063
    Quote Originally Posted by akris15 View Post
    For something made up there they found a fair amount of corruption and indictments along the way. This is what I don't get why are Trump Supporters in this thread thinking so small by saying "Waste of Time...nothing burger!". Like the talking point is set up not to age well...
    The president's rights as an American citizen were violated when a fraudulent investigation was launched on the false premise that he and his campaign had colluded with Russia off of manufactured evidence.

    Most American politicians and their associates would struggle to come out completely clean in the same circumstance unless they have the last name Clinton and their staff is given immunity before they answer any questions.

  4. #17064
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It would be simpler, alas, if there were fewer investigations. But since possible crimes lurk everywhere there will be as many as there need to be. For myself I have said from way back in the beginning that if Trump were to be brought down it would be for money laundering and it would be a New York state indictment. I haven't changed my mind about that. SDNY will have things to say too. The speculation was that anything Mueller came across that was a serious non-political crime would be shuffled over to that office. Don Jr., Jared, Ivanka...they should all be concerned about both the state AG and SDNY. Trump can try to pardon himself out of anything federal but the NYAG's office is something he can't avoid.
    Agree on all counts. Thanks.

  5. #17065
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Who's demanding the Mueller investigation be started up again? I have literally not seen that from anyone.

    If you're referring to other investigations, such as those by the SDNY, those don't have anything to do with Mueller's team, and are into matters Mueller wasn't investigating and did not have the mandate to look into, so there's no reason to take issue with them moving forward.

    If you were under the impression that the Mueller investigation was going to put an end to all investigations into Trump and co, then you never really understood what his team was looking into or what the boundaries were on that investigation. Mueller's team wrapping up was never going to be the end of this. It's a first step.



    If nothing else, the rest of the world is watching the USA pretty closely, and stuff like this is giving us very little reason to put our faith into a nation that used to be one of our staunchest allies. It's exposing the rot and how deeply it's set. That Trump won't be removed is more evidence towards that.

    Someone squeaky clean being elected won't eliminate the rot that's been exposed; that's just slapping a new coat of paint over it. And if the USA isn't going to burn that rot out and clean their shit up, they can't be trusted as an ally, and need to start being seen as a potential major international threat.

    And this isn't just politics. This rot goes deep. It's a rot in the American people, in the American ideal. You're learning that you really aren't the people you were striving to be, not the leaders of the free world, not the bastion of democracy and freedom that the whole world can see as a shining example of those ideals. That's over. Not ending, it's already done. You've lost that shine. And you did it to yourselves.
    Thank god you are not a moderator anymore good lord.

  6. #17066
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badzerath View Post
    The president's rights as an American citizen were violated when a fraudulent investigation was launched on the false premise that he and his campaign had colluded with Russia off of manufactured evidence.

    Most American politicians and their associates would struggle to come out completely clean in the same circumstance unless they have the last name Clinton and their staff is given immunity before they answer any questions.
    Hillary Clinton's rights as an American Citizen were violated when a fraudulent investigation was launched on the false premise that she maliciously allowed the Benghazi attack to occur.

    See? I can do that shit too.

    There was enough evidence on hand to justify starting an FBI investigation, which means, nothing was violated.

  7. #17067
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Hillary Clinton's rights as an American Citizen were violated when a fraudulent investigation was launched on the false premise that she maliciously allowed the Benghazi attack to occur.

    See? I can do that shit too.

    There was enough evidence on hand to justify starting an FBI investigation, which means, nothing was violated.
    Violated what 10-12 times over even? She survived all of them even. No indictments, no convictions, nothing.

  8. #17068
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Hillary Clinton's rights as an American Citizen were violated when a fraudulent investigation was launched on the false premise that she maliciously allowed the Benghazi attack to occur.

    See? I can do that shit too.

    There was enough evidence on hand to justify starting an FBI investigation, which means, nothing was violated.
    1. That was the house providing oversight which they have the right to do - even if I agree the motivations were malicious. Two things can be true at the same time, but one is a substantial increase in the arms race to abuse power and influence in American politics.

    2. I was referring to her ability to blatantly violate federal statutes in regards to handling classified information, and even being able to dictate how the FBI handled the investigation in regards to what emails they could access, and that her staff was given immunity before answering a single question. If this doesn't bother you even a little bit in comparison to how this was handled when one of these "convictions" propped up as evidence this special counsel was not a waste of time is a guy going to jail for 12 days....you are blatantly biased and not approaching this subject objectively.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MAGAmobile View Post
    Violated what 10-12 times over even? She survived all of them even. No indictments, no convictions, nothing.
    To be clear, there would have been zero indictments from Mueller if he gave everyone he interviewed immunity before having them interviewed.

  9. #17069
    Quote Originally Posted by badzerath View Post
    1. That was the house providing oversight which they have the right to do - even if I agree the motivations were malicious. Two things can be true at the same time, but one is a substantial increase in the arms race to abuse power and influence in American politics.

    2. I was referring to her ability to blatantly violate federal statutes in regards to handling classified information, and even being able to dictate how the FBI handled the investigation in regards to what emails they could access, and that her staff was given immunity before answering a single question. If this doesn't bother you even a little bit in comparison to how this was handled when one of these "convictions" propped up as evidence this special counsel was not a waste of time is a guy going to jail for 12 days....you are blatantly biased and not approaching this subject objectively.
    You mean like Jared and Ivanka using WhatsApp for official government business? GOPers are hypocrites.

  10. #17070
    Quote Originally Posted by badzerath View Post

    To be clear, there would have been zero indictments from Mueller if he gave everyone he interviewed immunity before having them interviewed.
    The government learned a long time ago not to hand out immunities like candy...unless you want another Iran-Cont....oh...

  11. #17071
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    And your point? Money wasted on a useless investigation.
    if they made more money than they spent (ie: it resulted in a net surplus for the federal government and they now have more money than what they started with), how the hell is that money that was wasted?

    Seriously, they have more funds than when they started the investigation, and we really aren't anywhere that we weren't at already (because until we see the full report/it is released to Congress in a form that all of the evidence isn't redacted all we have to go off of are the words of the guy who helped cover up Iran Contra and argued that a President can't obstruct justice, which isn't exactly the most credible person given the circumstances) since people who oppose Trump still think there's something fishy, people who support him think he's completely innocent, and people in the middle have also likely made up their minds (be honest, did this report in any way change your opinion of either side? Be totally honest) so we made money for nothing to really change.

  12. #17072
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellus1986 View Post
    You mean like Jared and Ivanka using WhatsApp for official government business? GOPers are hypocrites.
    So, just to be clear you are asserting that they were communicating blatantly classified information over WhatsApp?

    If that violates the statute they should be prosecuted?

    However, I feel like you are conflating a more vague term like "government business" with "classified". There is a distinction as anyone with a security clearance would know.

    I understand the inherent urge to knee-jerk with a "whataboutism" in regards to "the other side" but I am arguing for consistency. Of which there has been zero since I've been engaged in American politics.

    Edit:

    I feel like it is worth reiterating something that appears to be lost in this news in this thread. Despite what the most tribalistic citizens will claim, the average American citizen now knows that the initial basis for this investigation was fraudulent. The information around the dossier that was published as news (and then that news coverage used as a basis for investigation at the federal level), and how it was compiled is disturbing. The context around how FISA warrants were obtained to essentially spy on an American presidential campaign is disturbing, especially now when we have the benefit of hindsight.

    There was a fantastic segment on "The Next Revolution" on Fox tonight. Despite what opinion you may have about Fox hosts in general or about that show specifically, America is teetering on the edge of an endless abyss of a political arms race to see which "side" can abuse their power and authority against the other more. The average citizen will find a way to extract fairness one way or the other. In this age with public trust in Congress and the Media at an all time low we simultaneously have an event such as this where a narrative that was blatantly and heavily pushed by those two groups (Congress and the Media) is falling apart.

    Every fair minded person should be asking themselves how this narrative became established. Why are former heads of American intelligence on public record being incredibly and demonstrably wrong about this investigation? This is a blunder on a massive scale that I don't put on the shoulders of Mueller. I have a strong feeling he knew this was a pointless endeavor in regards to "collusion/conspiracy" from the get. I do want to hear from Obama DOJ officials. I want to know what got us from a one liner from Hillary Clinton about Trump being a Russian puppet - to March 24, 2019 where a narrative that never really had any supporting evidence is finally confirmed as absurd.

    If we don't get that - then democrats in congress are correct. This is just the beginning. The beginning of the end of a functioning government in the legislative and executive branch. Steve Hilton made a fantastic case on his show tonight on a litany of minor issues that various Democratic candidates have in their past/present that if spun into an extremely dramatic, negative light be "grounds for an investigation". I highly suggest everyone have a long think about if they want government to be a never ending series of endless investigations into political opponents that only ever end in process crimes - or if they want a functioning representative republic.
    Last edited by badzerath; 2019-03-25 at 03:14 AM.

  13. #17073
    Ok, so no treason then? So, basically Trump played fair and y'all got duped. 2020 is your salvation, make it happen. :P
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  14. #17074
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ok, so no treason then? So, basically Trump played fair and y'all got duped. 2020 is your salvation, make it happen. :P
    Explain "duped".

    If you mean our political elite and media establishment class were duped into pushing a narrative about Russian collusion while feigning concern about national security while ALSO dividing the country exactly as Putin wanted - then yes "we" were duped.

  15. #17075
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Someone squeaky clean being elected won't eliminate the rot that's been exposed; that's just slapping a new coat of paint over it. And if the USA isn't going to burn that rot out and clean their shit up, they can't be trusted as an ally, and need to start being seen as a potential major international threat.

    And this isn't just politics. This rot goes deep. It's a rot in the American people, in the American ideal. You're learning that you really aren't the people you were striving to be, not the leaders of the free world, not the bastion of democracy and freedom that the whole world can see as a shining example of those ideals. That's over. Not ending, it's already done. You've lost that shine. And you did it to yourselves.
    I would agree with everythign you said, except for the part that I bolded, and in regards to that, I would ask for more clairification. Can you tell me more what you meant by that?

  16. #17076
    Quote Originally Posted by Merkava View Post
    I would agree with everythign you said, except for the part that I bolded, and in regards to that, I would ask for more clairification. Can you tell me more what you meant by that?
    There is no rational explanation for that quote. Radical leftists grasp at straws for any reason to make veiled threats when someone they don't like is in a position of power.

  17. #17077
    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    Nothing matters until the full report is released.
    I would agree, but also go further and say we need to see the underlying evidence for a lot of the things Mueller did, like the rationale for the subpeonas he issued, etfc.

  18. #17078
    Dreadlord FeedsOnDevTears's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapemask View Post
    Oh god, the right wing spin is going off the rails here. I mean, it would have regardless of what Mueller said, but it's always fun to see it in action. They seem to skip over the fact that Mueller didn't find that collusion didn't occur at all, only that attempts to collude were unsuccessful; it also did not find that obstruction did not occur, just that it wasn't provable beyond a reasonable doubt because, as all obstruction cases tend to go, it's near impossible to prove intent.
    Barr didn't find obstruction of justice because he was trying very hard to avoid finding it. As journalist Marcy Wheeler sums it up:
    They didn’t consider whether Trump obstructed the crime that he appears to have obstructed. They considered whether he obstructed a different crime. And having considered whether Trump obstructed the crime he didn’t commit, rather than considering whether he obstructed the crime he did commit, they decided not to charge him with a crime.
    The whole report needs to be made public.
    Impeach the MF.

  19. #17079
    Quote Originally Posted by MAGAmobile View Post
    Violated what 10-12 times over even? She survived all of them even. No indictments, no convictions, nothing.
    and yet here we are.....10+ investigations later and MagaHeads still want to investigate her and "lock her up".....

    and they are crying cause democrats still want to pursue trump and co.....

    Inc another 10 years of investigations. Republicans set the bar, get used to it.

  20. #17080
    Quote Originally Posted by badzerath View Post
    So, just to be clear you are asserting that they were communicating blatantly classified information over WhatsApp?

    If that violates the statute they should be prosecuted?

    However, I feel like you are conflating a more vague term like "government business" with "classified". There is a distinction as anyone with a security clearance would know.

    I understand the inherent urge to knee-jerk with a "whataboutism" in regards to "the other side" but I am arguing for consistency. Of which there has been zero since I've been engaged in American politics.

    Edit:

    I feel like it is worth reiterating something that appears to be lost in this news in this thread. Despite what the most tribalistic citizens will claim, the average American citizen now knows that the initial basis for this investigation was fraudulent. The information around the dossier that was published as news (and then that news coverage used as a basis for investigation at the federal level), and how it was compiled is disturbing. The context around how FISA warrants were obtained to essentially spy on an American presidential campaign is disturbing, especially now when we have the benefit of hindsight.

    There was a fantastic segment on "The Next Revolution" on Fox tonight. Despite what opinion you may have about Fox hosts in general or about that show specifically, America is teetering on the edge of an endless abyss of a political arms race to see which "side" can abuse their power and authority against the other more. The average citizen will find a way to extract fairness one way or the other. In this age with public trust in Congress and the Media at an all time low we simultaneously have an event such as this where a narrative that was blatantly and heavily pushed by those two groups (Congress and the Media) is falling apart.

    Every fair minded person should be asking themselves how this narrative became established. Why are former heads of American intelligence on public record being incredibly and demonstrably wrong about this investigation? This is a blunder on a massive scale that I don't put on the shoulders of Mueller. I have a strong feeling he knew this was a pointless endeavor in regards to "collusion/conspiracy" from the get. I do want to hear from Obama DOJ officials. I want to know what got us from a one liner from Hillary Clinton about Trump being a Russian puppet - to March 24, 2019 where a narrative that never really had any supporting evidence is finally confirmed as absurd.

    If we don't get that - then democrats in congress are correct. This is just the beginning. The beginning of the end of a functioning government in the legislative and executive branch. Steve Hilton made a fantastic case on his show tonight on a litany of minor issues that various Democratic candidates have in their past/present that if spun into an extremely dramatic, negative light be "grounds for an investigation". I highly suggest everyone have a long think about if they want government to be a never ending series of endless investigations into political opponents that only ever end in process crimes - or if they want a functioning representative republic.
    The only one engaging in whataboutism is you. Also Jared and Ivanka shouldn’t have security clearances, as Trump and his staff were notified the same by career professionals.

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