1. #17161
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    ...Like Trump's obstruction of justice?
    More like obstruction from a witch hunt?

  2. #17162
    The Unstoppable Force Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Anyone else curious why Trump would obstruct justice if he was innocent of collusion?
    Let's pretend, for now, that Barr is not hiding anything and that Trump did not collude with Russia in any way.

    One, this is still pretty damning, because Trump hired Russian agents at the highest level -- Manafort, Flynn, Cohen (Trump Tower Moscow), arguably Sessions, etc -- and had zero idea. This is the best outcome he could have hoped for based on what's happened so far, and it still makes him the clueless idiot in the White House who hired multiple Russian agents.

    Two, it means he could have been trying to protect them. While you could make the argument that donating $70M to a university to get your child in is bad, firing the head of the FBI because they might find out the people you hired at the highest levels of government were Russian agents -- which, again, in this scenario we're pretending Trump did not know -- is worse. Far worse. Like, felony worse. And not even Barr's 4-page summary claims this didn't happen, only that Mueller couldn't prove it.

    Three, it could be about his ego. Nobody wanted to be the guy under Nixon-level investigation because of all that stuff he did. Valid or invalid investigation (btw, this one was valid, as measured by body count) hanging over your head does make you look bad. Problem is, firing Comey because he was making you look bad is arguably even worse than firing Comey because he might find out the people you hired at the highest level were Russian agents.

    And this is what the rabid fanbase are cheering as a victory. Their best case scenario -- which, again, we don't know is true, only that Barr claims Mueller claims he couldn't prove it in a court of law -- is that Trump, who unwittingly hired multiple Russian agents at the highest levels of government, either fired Comey before he found out, or fired Comey for making him look bad. Both of which are still quite damning, above and beyond "Trump hired multiple Russian agents at the highest levels of government".

  3. #17163
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    More like obstruction from a witch hunt?
    Obstructing legal proceedings is obstructing legal proceedings, regardless of what they do or do not end up implying.

    Of course, if that's still beyond what you deem applicable politics, we can start wondering why Trump was so clueless about his own campaign team that he hired multiple people who were guilty (by their own admission) of numerous crimes.


    It's always been a question of whether Trump was knowingly hiring criminals or too stupid to know otherwise. So what is he; scum, or an idiot?

    I mean my take is that he's both, but even republicans have to admit he's one or the other.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2019-03-25 at 12:05 PM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  4. #17164
    Quote Originally Posted by looka View Post
    Hollywood studio son, Made in America.

    You irrelevant Brit.
    That's funny, cos British TV series are usually of higher quality than US series... Must be because their dialogue actually is good. And that British accent you guys dig so much... they gots it. Free of charge, too.
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  5. #17165
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    More like obstruction from a witch hunt?
    34+ indictments. Half a dozen Trump aides facing jail time or other penalties. $50 million+ in seized assets. More than a dozen new investigations opened as a result of evidence found during this one.

    Obviously, there were witches.

    Also, trying to stop an investigation because you believe it to be wrong is still obstruction of justice.

  6. #17166
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    That's funny, cos British TV series are usually of higher quality than US series... Must be because their dialogue actually is good. And that British accent you guys dig so much... they gots it. Free of charge, too.
    Are you really responding to a single post account...

    Frankly, I think this forum would be a better place if people didn't give the time of day to any poster in Gen-OT without at least 400+ posts.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  7. #17167
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    That's funny, cos British TV series are usually of higher quality than US series... Must be because their dialogue actually is good. And that British accent you guys dig so much... they gots it. Free of charge, too.
    A bit off topic, but "British TV is of higher quality" or "US TV is better than anywhere else" are both subjective opinions, so you trying to refute his claim with yours is kind of pointless.

  8. #17168
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Are you really responding to a single post account...

    Frankly, I think this forum would be a better place if people didn't give the time of day to any poster in Gen-OT without at least 400+ posts.
    Oh, get off your high horse. He wasn't trolling nor representing an absurd viewpoint. I don't look at post counts. Neither should you.
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  9. #17169
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    A lot of what exactly? This investigation and all the money spent on it could've been spent on something else. It's also has been Presidents who all have served both terms. I don't care how angry people get at this report, I'm not going to stop stating facts no matter how much you DON'T like them.
    How many were arrested and charged?

    As for cost it cost 35 million. Manaforts seizures alone at 40 million+ pay for the investigation.
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.

  10. #17170
    Dreadlord FeedsOnDevTears's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Anyone else curious why Trump would obstruct justice if he was innocent of collusion?

    The obvious answer is that he is guilty of other things and knows it. My guess is it is related to his tax returns.

    The longer it takes for them to release the report to Congress, the more obvious his guilt is.
    You don't even have to go that far. It seems pretty obvious that Barr is desperately trying to avoid admitting that Trump is objectively of obstruction of justice.

    And that's before getting into how Barr admits the Russians offered Trump assistance to get you elected, and that the Russian provided assistance. Barr's "no collusion" claim is on very shaky ground. It seems to ignore Trump's open solicitation of Russian assistance, and the publicly documented actions he and his campaign team have taken for Russian benefit.
    Impeach the MF.

  11. #17171
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    A bit off topic, but "British TV is of higher quality" or "US TV is better than anywhere else" are both subjective opinions, so you trying to refute his claim with yours is kind of pointless.
    And yet, here we are, discussing subjective opinions... like in the thousands other topics on this forum. Funny how this thing works, social interaction...
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  12. #17172
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    How is that a conspiracy?

    Even his own AG, the ONLY person to read the report, has said he is not exonerated of obstruction.

    I know you guys hate facts and all....
    That's because "obstruction" is way too vague a concept in these circumstances and entirely up to interpretation. Without a specific crime to have been shown to be obstructed it's meaningless and could never be "proven" either way.

    “I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go ... He is a good guy,” COULD be an attempt to block the investigation, or it could just be Trump vouching for his character. He also said he was Trump said he was thinking of “this Russia thing” when he fired him, but Trump also said in the NBC interview and in others that he fired Comey because he was incompetent. Comey was incompetent, weakening the case. For all the Russia interference, Clinton would be President now if it wasn't for Comey. The fact all of this has been in public view and on record makes it even more difficult to say there was malicious genuine intent to obstruct.

    Now that the "Collusion" has been dismissed, the case for obstruction is basically non-existent. Democrats would be very wise to just drop this entire thing now and move on. Now that Muellers investigation has all but exonerated him on Russia, anything they do to keep dragging this out over the next year will just make themselves look bad.
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  13. #17173
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    That's because "obstruction" is way too vague a concept in these circumstances and entirely up to interpretation. Without a specific crime to have been shown to be obstructed it's meaningless and could never be "proven" either way.

    “I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go ... He is a good guy,” COULD be an attempt to block the investigation, or it could just be Trump vouching for his character. He also said he was Trump said he was thinking of “this Russia thing” when he fired him, but Trump also said in the NBC interview and in others that he fired Comey because he was incompetent. Comey was incompetent, weakening the case. For all the Russia interference, Clinton would be President now if it wasn't for Comey. The fact all of this has been in public view and on record makes it even more difficult to say there was malicious genuine intent to obstruct.

    Now that the "Collusion" has been dismissed, the case for obstruction is basically non-existent. Democrats would be very wise to just drop this entire thing now and move on. Now that Muellers investigation has all but exonerated him on Russia, anything they do to keep dragging this out over the next year will just make themselves look bad.
    Very little of what you just said is true.
    Last edited by Bodakane; 2019-03-25 at 12:17 PM.
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  14. #17174
    Quote Originally Posted by looka View Post
    Breaking Bad, Sopranos, Game of Thrones all made by American directors and story tellers. Greatest shows of all time.

    Tell little britain to catch up.

    Sit down your irrelevant german nazi.
    Doctor Who. 'nuff said.
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  15. #17175
    Banned Fahrenheit's Avatar
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    I don't see how this is germane to the topic.

  16. #17176
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    More like obstruction from a witch hunt?
    Paul manafort is a witch? Is Cohen a witch?
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.

  17. #17177
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    And yet, here we are, discussing subjective opinions... like in the thousands other topics on this forum. Funny how this thing works, social interaction...
    Hah, no. At least some people in this thread are trying to back up their claims with objective facts. "My dad is better than your dad!" is just pointless blather, particularly in the context of this thread. Good luck.

  18. #17178
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by looka View Post
    Hollywood studio son, Made in America. Sopranos, Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad tv series made by genius American directors.

    You are a irrelevant Brit.
    And life would not cease to exist if Hollywood didn't. There are film and television companies all over the world. Hell, the best thing you've had on American tv in recent years was a subpar remake of a British comedy.

    You overstate your cultural importance by thinking it holds humanity's survival in the balance. There are plenty of non American cultural influences from Europe and Asia.

  19. #17179
    Dreadlord FeedsOnDevTears's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Saying "there was nothing to the Russia story" is not a fact. It's an opinion that ignores evidence to the contrary. The Trump Tower meetings, the contacts Jr., Manafort and Cohen made, etc. all point to some pretty shady business. There was not, however, ENOUGH evidence to lay "collusion" at the feet of Trump and his campaign. Fair enough, I accept that Mueller did a thorough job in investigating that point even though the major focus of the investigation was meant to be whether or not Trump obstructed justice--which, according to Barr--Mueller is unable to exonerate him of.

    I suspect the reason he is "not exonerated" as opposed to "guilty of" has to do with the fact that there are clear instances of him obstructing justice (witness tampering on Twitter, telling Comey to end the Russia investigation) but these were not deemed "severe" enough to warrant pursuing.
    Nope. Read Barr's letter again. He isn't charging Trump with obstruction, because he only looked into obstruction with regards to Trump obstructing Muller's investigation into the Russian cyberwarfare. Then Barr concludes that since Trump & Co weren't guilty of telling the Russian goverment how to help them win, they aren't guilty of anything.

    What's left unaddressed is that Trump was cutting quid pro quo deals with Russian citizens, and that he did obstruct investigations into that (and other issues).

    To make an analogy, it's like the mods here looking at a reported post, saying "Well, it's not discussing religion, which is a banned topic, so we don't care if it's nation-bashing or trolling."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by badzerath View Post
    That shit you posted reads like mental gymnastics worthy of The Onion....
    "I want to see the whole report" apparently equals "mental gymnastics" to Redhats.


    Maybe Mueller has a really good explanation of how asking for Russian help and receiving Russian help, while secretly conducting business deals with Russia isn't 'conspiracy'. And maybe it has a really good explanation for how repeatedly interfering into the investigation into said Russian contacts isn't obstruction, even though the attorney general previously said it was.
    Last edited by FeedsOnDevTears; 2019-03-25 at 12:48 PM.
    Impeach the MF.

  20. #17180
    The Unstoppable Force Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    Now that the "Collusion" has been dismissed, the case for obstruction is basically non-existent.
    *LOUD ANNOYING BUZZER*

    Sorry, but that's not the case at all. Yes, you can obstruct justice even when innocent of the original crime. We had a President, who was impeached, for doing exactly that. His name was Clinton. There is President for exactly what you're trying to handwave.

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