1. #17241
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    And your point? Money wasted on a useless investigation.
    if they made more money than they spent (ie: it resulted in a net surplus for the federal government and they now have more money than what they started with), how the hell is that money that was wasted?

    Seriously, they have more funds than when they started the investigation, and we really aren't anywhere that we weren't at already (because until we see the full report/it is released to Congress in a form that all of the evidence isn't redacted all we have to go off of are the words of the guy who helped cover up Iran Contra and argued that a President can't obstruct justice, which isn't exactly the most credible person given the circumstances) since people who oppose Trump still think there's something fishy, people who support him think he's completely innocent, and people in the middle have also likely made up their minds (be honest, did this report in any way change your opinion of either side? Be totally honest) so we made money for nothing to really change.

  2. #17242
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellus1986 View Post
    You mean like Jared and Ivanka using WhatsApp for official government business? GOPers are hypocrites.
    So, just to be clear you are asserting that they were communicating blatantly classified information over WhatsApp?

    If that violates the statute they should be prosecuted?

    However, I feel like you are conflating a more vague term like "government business" with "classified". There is a distinction as anyone with a security clearance would know.

    I understand the inherent urge to knee-jerk with a "whataboutism" in regards to "the other side" but I am arguing for consistency. Of which there has been zero since I've been engaged in American politics.

    Edit:

    I feel like it is worth reiterating something that appears to be lost in this news in this thread. Despite what the most tribalistic citizens will claim, the average American citizen now knows that the initial basis for this investigation was fraudulent. The information around the dossier that was published as news (and then that news coverage used as a basis for investigation at the federal level), and how it was compiled is disturbing. The context around how FISA warrants were obtained to essentially spy on an American presidential campaign is disturbing, especially now when we have the benefit of hindsight.

    There was a fantastic segment on "The Next Revolution" on Fox tonight. Despite what opinion you may have about Fox hosts in general or about that show specifically, America is teetering on the edge of an endless abyss of a political arms race to see which "side" can abuse their power and authority against the other more. The average citizen will find a way to extract fairness one way or the other. In this age with public trust in Congress and the Media at an all time low we simultaneously have an event such as this where a narrative that was blatantly and heavily pushed by those two groups (Congress and the Media) is falling apart.

    Every fair minded person should be asking themselves how this narrative became established. Why are former heads of American intelligence on public record being incredibly and demonstrably wrong about this investigation? This is a blunder on a massive scale that I don't put on the shoulders of Mueller. I have a strong feeling he knew this was a pointless endeavor in regards to "collusion/conspiracy" from the get. I do want to hear from Obama DOJ officials. I want to know what got us from a one liner from Hillary Clinton about Trump being a Russian puppet - to March 24, 2019 where a narrative that never really had any supporting evidence is finally confirmed as absurd.

    If we don't get that - then democrats in congress are correct. This is just the beginning. The beginning of the end of a functioning government in the legislative and executive branch. Steve Hilton made a fantastic case on his show tonight on a litany of minor issues that various Democratic candidates have in their past/present that if spun into an extremely dramatic, negative light be "grounds for an investigation". I highly suggest everyone have a long think about if they want government to be a never ending series of endless investigations into political opponents that only ever end in process crimes - or if they want a functioning representative republic.
    Last edited by badzerath; 2019-03-25 at 03:14 AM.

  3. #17243
    Ok, so no treason then? So, basically Trump played fair and y'all got duped. 2020 is your salvation, make it happen. :P
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.

  4. #17244
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ok, so no treason then? So, basically Trump played fair and y'all got duped. 2020 is your salvation, make it happen. :P
    Explain "duped".

    If you mean our political elite and media establishment class were duped into pushing a narrative about Russian collusion while feigning concern about national security while ALSO dividing the country exactly as Putin wanted - then yes "we" were duped.

  5. #17245
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Someone squeaky clean being elected won't eliminate the rot that's been exposed; that's just slapping a new coat of paint over it. And if the USA isn't going to burn that rot out and clean their shit up, they can't be trusted as an ally, and need to start being seen as a potential major international threat.

    And this isn't just politics. This rot goes deep. It's a rot in the American people, in the American ideal. You're learning that you really aren't the people you were striving to be, not the leaders of the free world, not the bastion of democracy and freedom that the whole world can see as a shining example of those ideals. That's over. Not ending, it's already done. You've lost that shine. And you did it to yourselves.
    I would agree with everythign you said, except for the part that I bolded, and in regards to that, I would ask for more clairification. Can you tell me more what you meant by that?

  6. #17246
    Nothing matters until the full report is released.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High View Post
    Fuckin go away Elba, no one likes you.

  7. #17247
    Quote Originally Posted by Merkava View Post
    I would agree with everythign you said, except for the part that I bolded, and in regards to that, I would ask for more clairification. Can you tell me more what you meant by that?
    There is no rational explanation for that quote. Radical leftists grasp at straws for any reason to make veiled threats when someone they don't like is in a position of power.

  8. #17248
    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    Nothing matters until the full report is released.
    I would agree, but also go further and say we need to see the underlying evidence for a lot of the things Mueller did, like the rationale for the subpeonas he issued, etfc.

  9. #17249
    Dreadlord FeedsOnDevTears's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    United States of Azeroth
    Posts
    845
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapemask View Post
    Oh god, the right wing spin is going off the rails here. I mean, it would have regardless of what Mueller said, but it's always fun to see it in action. They seem to skip over the fact that Mueller didn't find that collusion didn't occur at all, only that attempts to collude were unsuccessful; it also did not find that obstruction did not occur, just that it wasn't provable beyond a reasonable doubt because, as all obstruction cases tend to go, it's near impossible to prove intent.
    Barr didn't find obstruction of justice because he was trying very hard to avoid finding it. As journalist Marcy Wheeler sums it up:
    They didn’t consider whether Trump obstructed the crime that he appears to have obstructed. They considered whether he obstructed a different crime. And having considered whether Trump obstructed the crime he didn’t commit, rather than considering whether he obstructed the crime he did commit, they decided not to charge him with a crime.
    The whole report needs to be made public.
    Impeach the MF.

  10. #17250
    Quote Originally Posted by MAGAmobile View Post
    Violated what 10-12 times over even? She survived all of them even. No indictments, no convictions, nothing.
    and yet here we are.....10+ investigations later and MagaHeads still want to investigate her and "lock her up".....

    and they are crying cause democrats still want to pursue trump and co.....

    Inc another 10 years of investigations. Republicans set the bar, get used to it.

  11. #17251
    Quote Originally Posted by badzerath View Post
    So, just to be clear you are asserting that they were communicating blatantly classified information over WhatsApp?

    If that violates the statute they should be prosecuted?

    However, I feel like you are conflating a more vague term like "government business" with "classified". There is a distinction as anyone with a security clearance would know.

    I understand the inherent urge to knee-jerk with a "whataboutism" in regards to "the other side" but I am arguing for consistency. Of which there has been zero since I've been engaged in American politics.

    Edit:

    I feel like it is worth reiterating something that appears to be lost in this news in this thread. Despite what the most tribalistic citizens will claim, the average American citizen now knows that the initial basis for this investigation was fraudulent. The information around the dossier that was published as news (and then that news coverage used as a basis for investigation at the federal level), and how it was compiled is disturbing. The context around how FISA warrants were obtained to essentially spy on an American presidential campaign is disturbing, especially now when we have the benefit of hindsight.

    There was a fantastic segment on "The Next Revolution" on Fox tonight. Despite what opinion you may have about Fox hosts in general or about that show specifically, America is teetering on the edge of an endless abyss of a political arms race to see which "side" can abuse their power and authority against the other more. The average citizen will find a way to extract fairness one way or the other. In this age with public trust in Congress and the Media at an all time low we simultaneously have an event such as this where a narrative that was blatantly and heavily pushed by those two groups (Congress and the Media) is falling apart.

    Every fair minded person should be asking themselves how this narrative became established. Why are former heads of American intelligence on public record being incredibly and demonstrably wrong about this investigation? This is a blunder on a massive scale that I don't put on the shoulders of Mueller. I have a strong feeling he knew this was a pointless endeavor in regards to "collusion/conspiracy" from the get. I do want to hear from Obama DOJ officials. I want to know what got us from a one liner from Hillary Clinton about Trump being a Russian puppet - to March 24, 2019 where a narrative that never really had any supporting evidence is finally confirmed as absurd.

    If we don't get that - then democrats in congress are correct. This is just the beginning. The beginning of the end of a functioning government in the legislative and executive branch. Steve Hilton made a fantastic case on his show tonight on a litany of minor issues that various Democratic candidates have in their past/present that if spun into an extremely dramatic, negative light be "grounds for an investigation". I highly suggest everyone have a long think about if they want government to be a never ending series of endless investigations into political opponents that only ever end in process crimes - or if they want a functioning representative republic.
    The only one engaging in whataboutism is you. Also Jared and Ivanka shouldn’t have security clearances, as Trump and his staff were notified the same by career professionals.

  12. #17252
    Quote Originally Posted by FeedsOnDevTears View Post
    Barr didn't find obstruction of justice because he was trying very hard to avoid finding it. As journalist Marcy Wheeler sums it up:

    The whole report needs to be made public.
    That shit you posted reads like mental gymnastics worthy of The Onion....

  13. #17253
    I agree that the full report needs to go public. If it shows nothing too damaging about Trump and his people then so be it. We can put all of this behind us and move on to other things.

  14. #17254
    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    Nothing matters until the full report is released.
    So you think he investigated for 2 years, got the media calling his office every day to find out if there's something new, got senators and other assorted politicians pestering him about it... and then when he comes out of it, he hands over the least significant teaser... just to build up the suspense? :P

    He got nothing. Look elsewhere, deal with it politically.
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.

  15. #17255
    Quote Originally Posted by Aehl View Post
    If there is evidence...where is it?

    Mueller doesnt seem to have it.
    Evidence is like Cohen testimony, Trump saying why he fired Comey, the checks sent to Cohen, and much more. Again, have to see the report first and not jump to conclusions.

    Dontrike/Shadow Priest/Black Cell Faction Friend Code - 5172-0967-3866

  16. #17256
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellus1986 View Post
    The only one engaging in whataboutism is you. Also Jared and Ivanka shouldn’t have security clearances, as Trump and his staff were notified the same by career professionals.
    Your incoherence is astounding. You are accusing them of committing a crime. Provide some evidence or shut the hell up. I'm not interested is some random nobody's opinion on who "should" have a security clearance.

  17. #17257
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ok, so no treason then? So, basically Trump played fair and y'all got duped. 2020 is your salvation, make it happen. :P
    Anybody who was scrutinizing and paying attention knew this years ago. It was clear sometime around mid-2017 that this wasn't the conspiracy we were worried about, but a politically-motivated attack against a candidate who wasn't supposed to win. A cottage industry rose up that fed people what they wanted to hear: Trump is even worse than you thought. Treasonous, conspiring with foreign agents to rig our elections. The death penalty for some involved could be on the table, some said. This drove clicks, it drove revenue, and it drove the narrative. But anybody who was paying attention realized what this was a long, long time ago.

    You'll still see people clinging to it, because what's the alternative? To say what you just said? Never. This is a political war with no rules of engagement. So the formerly-pristine Mueller, the paragon of professionalism with his own cult following complete with reverent T-shirts suddenly needs to be subpoenaed to find out what he's not telling us. They don't really believe any of that, the people pushing this, but as I said, this is a political war. And it's profitable.

    Not directed at you, exactly, because I don't know how active you were during this whole ordeal, but part of me wants to revel and gloat in the fact that I spent so much time trying to explain all this to people here on this board, to extreme blowback, only to be completely vindicated. But there's no joy here. Trump didn't "collude" with a foreign government to steal the election. Great. I would hope that would be a given. I'm bothered about what @badzerath has talked about: The weaponization of our investigative agencies by the Executive in charge. There's a lot of cleaning house that needs to be done. And if the Obama administration wasn't above reproach, certainly the Trump administration wouldn't be. We should all be concerned about the events that precipitated this entire investigation.

  18. #17258
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    All those millions of $dollars wasted on this investigation.

    Might as well piled all that money up and put a match to it.
    You know it made money, right?

    Dontrike/Shadow Priest/Black Cell Faction Friend Code - 5172-0967-3866

  19. #17259
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ok, so no treason then? So, basically Trump played fair and y'all got duped. 2020 is your salvation, make it happen. :P
    That's not what the letter about the report said, so I'm not really sure why you're saying that. I'll reiterate: the quote from the report says the SCO "did not establish" which is pretty specific wording which means, "beyond a reasonable doubt." That's not the same as the SCO saying they don't have "clear and convincing" evidence, or that the "preponderance of the evidence" doesn't say trump conspired with foreign powers to undermine the legitimacy of the election, both of which, are standards of proof that are also used in the US legal system (and one is used far more commonly than "beyond a reasonable doubt"). There's no jeopardy of prison time for impeachment hearings, so I don't know why people default to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" burden of proof here (by people, I don't mean the SCO, as they were investigating the issues as if they were going to be prosecuted in criminal court... as they were bringing criminal suits).
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  20. #17260
    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    It isnt really trump supporters... you are trying to get people fired up over something most people assume was made up years ago at this point. Sure is neat but its like being told you can dip your banana in yogurt. It isnt exactly a revelation.
    Oh boohoo for the criminal also that were caught. Perhaps they should try less illegal activity if they are so worried about their jobs and livelihoods.
    "
    Won't someone think of the poor rich criminals!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aehl View Post
    There isnt any proof.

    Muellers report says so.
    We literally don't have the report and you're ignoring the "doesn't exonerate" part.

    Dontrike/Shadow Priest/Black Cell Faction Friend Code - 5172-0967-3866

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •