1. #17241
    Quote Originally Posted by MAGAmobile View Post
    Violated what 10-12 times over even? She survived all of them even. No indictments, no convictions, nothing.
    and yet here we are.....10+ investigations later and MagaHeads still want to investigate her and "lock her up".....

    and they are crying cause democrats still want to pursue trump and co.....

    Inc another 10 years of investigations. Republicans set the bar, get used to it.

  2. #17242
    Quote Originally Posted by badzerath View Post
    So, just to be clear you are asserting that they were communicating blatantly classified information over WhatsApp?

    If that violates the statute they should be prosecuted?

    However, I feel like you are conflating a more vague term like "government business" with "classified". There is a distinction as anyone with a security clearance would know.

    I understand the inherent urge to knee-jerk with a "whataboutism" in regards to "the other side" but I am arguing for consistency. Of which there has been zero since I've been engaged in American politics.

    Edit:

    I feel like it is worth reiterating something that appears to be lost in this news in this thread. Despite what the most tribalistic citizens will claim, the average American citizen now knows that the initial basis for this investigation was fraudulent. The information around the dossier that was published as news (and then that news coverage used as a basis for investigation at the federal level), and how it was compiled is disturbing. The context around how FISA warrants were obtained to essentially spy on an American presidential campaign is disturbing, especially now when we have the benefit of hindsight.

    There was a fantastic segment on "The Next Revolution" on Fox tonight. Despite what opinion you may have about Fox hosts in general or about that show specifically, America is teetering on the edge of an endless abyss of a political arms race to see which "side" can abuse their power and authority against the other more. The average citizen will find a way to extract fairness one way or the other. In this age with public trust in Congress and the Media at an all time low we simultaneously have an event such as this where a narrative that was blatantly and heavily pushed by those two groups (Congress and the Media) is falling apart.

    Every fair minded person should be asking themselves how this narrative became established. Why are former heads of American intelligence on public record being incredibly and demonstrably wrong about this investigation? This is a blunder on a massive scale that I don't put on the shoulders of Mueller. I have a strong feeling he knew this was a pointless endeavor in regards to "collusion/conspiracy" from the get. I do want to hear from Obama DOJ officials. I want to know what got us from a one liner from Hillary Clinton about Trump being a Russian puppet - to March 24, 2019 where a narrative that never really had any supporting evidence is finally confirmed as absurd.

    If we don't get that - then democrats in congress are correct. This is just the beginning. The beginning of the end of a functioning government in the legislative and executive branch. Steve Hilton made a fantastic case on his show tonight on a litany of minor issues that various Democratic candidates have in their past/present that if spun into an extremely dramatic, negative light be "grounds for an investigation". I highly suggest everyone have a long think about if they want government to be a never ending series of endless investigations into political opponents that only ever end in process crimes - or if they want a functioning representative republic.
    The only one engaging in whataboutism is you. Also Jared and Ivanka shouldn’t have security clearances, as Trump and his staff were notified the same by career professionals.

  3. #17243
    Quote Originally Posted by FeedsOnDevTears View Post
    Barr didn't find obstruction of justice because he was trying very hard to avoid finding it. As journalist Marcy Wheeler sums it up:

    The whole report needs to be made public.
    That shit you posted reads like mental gymnastics worthy of The Onion....

  4. #17244
    I agree that the full report needs to go public. If it shows nothing too damaging about Trump and his people then so be it. We can put all of this behind us and move on to other things.

  5. #17245
    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    Nothing matters until the full report is released.
    So you think he investigated for 2 years, got the media calling his office every day to find out if there's something new, got senators and other assorted politicians pestering him about it... and then when he comes out of it, he hands over the least significant teaser... just to build up the suspense? :P

    He got nothing. Look elsewhere, deal with it politically.
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  6. #17246
    Quote Originally Posted by Aehl View Post
    If there is evidence...where is it?

    Mueller doesnt seem to have it.
    Evidence is like Cohen testimony, Trump saying why he fired Comey, the checks sent to Cohen, and much more. Again, have to see the report first and not jump to conclusions.

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  7. #17247
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellus1986 View Post
    The only one engaging in whataboutism is you. Also Jared and Ivanka shouldn’t have security clearances, as Trump and his staff were notified the same by career professionals.
    Your incoherence is astounding. You are accusing them of committing a crime. Provide some evidence or shut the hell up. I'm not interested is some random nobody's opinion on who "should" have a security clearance.

  8. #17248
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ok, so no treason then? So, basically Trump played fair and y'all got duped. 2020 is your salvation, make it happen. :P
    Anybody who was scrutinizing and paying attention knew this years ago. It was clear sometime around mid-2017 that this wasn't the conspiracy we were worried about, but a politically-motivated attack against a candidate who wasn't supposed to win. A cottage industry rose up that fed people what they wanted to hear: Trump is even worse than you thought. Treasonous, conspiring with foreign agents to rig our elections. The death penalty for some involved could be on the table, some said. This drove clicks, it drove revenue, and it drove the narrative. But anybody who was paying attention realized what this was a long, long time ago.

    You'll still see people clinging to it, because what's the alternative? To say what you just said? Never. This is a political war with no rules of engagement. So the formerly-pristine Mueller, the paragon of professionalism with his own cult following complete with reverent T-shirts suddenly needs to be subpoenaed to find out what he's not telling us. They don't really believe any of that, the people pushing this, but as I said, this is a political war. And it's profitable.

    Not directed at you, exactly, because I don't know how active you were during this whole ordeal, but part of me wants to revel and gloat in the fact that I spent so much time trying to explain all this to people here on this board, to extreme blowback, only to be completely vindicated. But there's no joy here. Trump didn't "collude" with a foreign government to steal the election. Great. I would hope that would be a given. I'm bothered about what @badzerath has talked about: The weaponization of our investigative agencies by the Executive in charge. There's a lot of cleaning house that needs to be done. And if the Obama administration wasn't above reproach, certainly the Trump administration wouldn't be. We should all be concerned about the events that precipitated this entire investigation.

  9. #17249
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    All those millions of $dollars wasted on this investigation.

    Might as well piled all that money up and put a match to it.
    You know it made money, right?

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  10. #17250
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ok, so no treason then? So, basically Trump played fair and y'all got duped. 2020 is your salvation, make it happen. :P
    That's not what the letter about the report said, so I'm not really sure why you're saying that. I'll reiterate: the quote from the report says the SCO "did not establish" which is pretty specific wording which means, "beyond a reasonable doubt." That's not the same as the SCO saying they don't have "clear and convincing" evidence, or that the "preponderance of the evidence" doesn't say trump conspired with foreign powers to undermine the legitimacy of the election, both of which, are standards of proof that are also used in the US legal system (and one is used far more commonly than "beyond a reasonable doubt"). There's no jeopardy of prison time for impeachment hearings, so I don't know why people default to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" burden of proof here (by people, I don't mean the SCO, as they were investigating the issues as if they were going to be prosecuted in criminal court... as they were bringing criminal suits).
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  11. #17251
    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    It isnt really trump supporters... you are trying to get people fired up over something most people assume was made up years ago at this point. Sure is neat but its like being told you can dip your banana in yogurt. It isnt exactly a revelation.
    Oh boohoo for the criminal also that were caught. Perhaps they should try less illegal activity if they are so worried about their jobs and livelihoods.
    "
    Won't someone think of the poor rich criminals!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aehl View Post
    There isnt any proof.

    Muellers report says so.
    We literally don't have the report and you're ignoring the "doesn't exonerate" part.

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  12. #17252
    Not Working Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merkava View Post
    I would agree with everythign you said, except for the part that I bolded, and in regards to that, I would ask for more clairification. Can you tell me more what you meant by that?
    Pretty much exactly what I said.

    We can't rely on the USA's support. Trump is constantly threatening to withdraw from strategic alliances, he's engaging in economic attacks against allies through tariffs and the like, he's cozying up to dictators and enemies of his supposed allies and treating them more gently than those allies. If that standard can be set with Trump, who I see as merely dangerously incompetent, how much worse could it be with someone truly malicious? There are no checks or balances; if there were, we wouldn't still be discussing Trump in 2019.

    The USA hasn't become our enemy. But they have also shown that they cannot be trusted as a friend, anymore, either.

  13. #17253
    I am Murloc! Saucexorzski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Pretty much exactly what I said.

    We can't rely on the USA's support. Trump is constantly threatening to withdraw from strategic alliances, he's engaging in economic attacks against allies through tariffs and the like, he's cozying up to dictators and enemies of his supposed allies and treating them more gently than those allies. If that standard can be set with Trump, who I see as merely dangerously incompetent, how much worse could it be with someone truly malicious? There are no checks or balances; if there were, we wouldn't still be discussing Trump in 2019.

    The USA hasn't become our enemy. But they have also shown that they cannot be trusted as a friend, anymore, either.
    Oh Endus, with friends like you who needs enemies.
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  14. #17254
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So you think he investigated for 2 years, got the media calling his office every day to find out if there's something new, got senators and other assorted politicians pestering him about it... and then when he comes out of it, he hands over the least significant teaser... just to build up the suspense? :P

    He got nothing. Look elsewhere, deal with it politically.
    Why are against it fully coming out?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Anybody who was scrutinizing and paying attention knew this years ago. It was clear sometime around mid-2017 that this wasn't the conspiracy we were worried about, but a politically-motivated attack against a candidate who wasn't supposed to win. A cottage industry rose up that fed people what they wanted to hear: Trump is even worse than you thought. Treasonous, conspiring with foreign agents to rig our elections. The death penalty for some involved could be on the table, some said. This drove clicks, it drove revenue, and it drove the narrative. But anybody who was paying attention realized what this was a long, long time ago.

    You'll still see people clinging to it, because what's the alternative? To say what you just said? Never. This is a political war with no rules of engagement. So the formerly-pristine Mueller, the paragon of professionalism with his own cult following complete with reverent T-shirts suddenly needs to be subpoenaed to find out what he's not telling us. They don't really believe any of that, the people pushing this, but as I said, this is a political war. And it's profitable.

    Not directed at you, exactly, because I don't know how active you were during this whole ordeal, but part of me wants to revel and gloat in the fact that I spent so much time trying to explain all this to people here on this board, to extreme blowback, only to be completely vindicated. But there's no joy here. Trump didn't "collude" with a foreign government to steal the election. Great. I would hope that would be a given. I'm bothered about what @badzerath has talked about: The weaponization of our investigative agencies by the Executive in charge. There's a lot of cleaning house that needs to be done. And if the Obama administration wasn't above reproach, certainly the Trump administration wouldn't be. We should all be concerned about the events that precipitated this entire investigation.
    I knew you'd come back, but unfortunately you are ignoring the "doesn't exonerate" part. Would you be opposed to the entire report being released?

    Even if Trump is innocent of everything, which is impossible, he's still a shitty president with nothing positive to his name during his entire presidency.

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  15. #17255
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The USA hasn't become our enemy. But they have also shown that they cannot be trusted as a friend, anymore, either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    the USA...need to start being seen as a potential major international threat.
    Ignoring for now the dissonance between those two positions, how would you advise allies of the United States to proceed? How exactly do you treat a nation that you deem to be a "potential major international threat"? What other nations would you classify the same way, as a "potential major international threat"?

  16. #17256
    Quote Originally Posted by Merkava View Post
    I would agree with everythign you said, except for the part that I bolded, and in regards to that, I would ask for more clairification. Can you tell me more what you meant by that?
    Not to speak for Endus, but as a Canadian, if yours is a country that would legitimately elect Donald Trump as president on a platform of protectionism, racism, and pants on head stupid economics, you're filing yourself firmly in the "not to be trusted" category in the eyes of the free world beside president postliterate bestwords' pen pal Kim Jong Un.

    If Donald Trump cheated to steal the presidency through the influence of a foreign power, and despite taking 22 months to investigate you hauled his ass off to prison for the rest of his natural life, expunged all of his co-conspirators, and then promptly returned to relative sanity in governance, then "this was a dark chapter in American history and we know it will take time to rebuild our trust..." seems like a plausible start to mending the alliances that president very stable genius has been splintering for the last 2 years.

  17. #17257
    Quote Originally Posted by DisposableHero View Post
    Not to speak for Endus, but as a Canadian, if yours is a country that would legitimately elect Donald Trump as president on a platform of protectionism, racism, and pants on head stupid economics, you're filing yourself firmly in the "not to be trusted" category in the eyes of the free world beside president postliterate bestwords' pen pal Kim Jong Un.

    If Donald Trump cheated to steal the presidency through the influence of a foreign power, and despite taking 22 months to investigate you hauled his ass off to prison for the rest of his natural life, expunged all of his co-conspirators, and then promptly returned to relative sanity in governance, then "this was a dark chapter in American history and we know it will take time to rebuild our trust..." seems like a plausible start to mending the alliances that president very stable genius has been splintering for the last 2 years.
    Not much to argue about with your first paragraph with the exception of protectionism and ill advised economic policy doesnt exactly equate to not trusting your oldest ally, your second paragraph is, I'm sorry to say, complete drivel. You see, we have a thing called the rule of law. We dont send anyone to prison without a trial. Also I don't know what you mean by "expunge". Are you using it in the legal sense or colloquially. I'm not sure you're using it properly in any sense.

    Edit - Also "cheating" isnt' against the law. If you want to send someone to jail for the rest of their life, it's helpful to cite what law you think they're guilty of.
    Last edited by Merkava; 2019-03-25 at 04:13 AM.

  18. #17258
    Quote Originally Posted by badzerath View Post
    Your incoherence is astounding. You are accusing them of committing a crime. Provide some evidence or shut the hell up. I'm not interested is some random nobody's opinion on who "should" have a security clearance.

    Here's one from NYT about Trump ordering Kushner to be given a security clearance despite concerns from people around him, including John Kelly


    WAPO article of the same

    Here's a story about his use of Whatsapp for government business

    Another one

    I mean, google is your friend. However, judging by your posts so far, you aren't interested in honest debate.. this thread isn't about Hillary so you are engaging in whataboutism to deflect away from Trump.

  19. #17259
    Quote Originally Posted by DisposableHero View Post
    Not to speak for Endus, but as a Canadian, if yours is a country that would legitimately elect Donald Trump as president on a platform of protectionism, racism, and pants on head stupid economics, you're filing yourself firmly in the "not to be trusted" category in the eyes of the free world beside president postliterate bestwords' pen pal Kim Jong Un.

    If Donald Trump cheated to steal the presidency through the influence of a foreign power, and despite taking 22 months to investigate you hauled his ass off to prison for the rest of his natural life, expunged all of his co-conspirators, and then promptly returned to relative sanity in governance, then "this was a dark chapter in American history and we know it will take time to rebuild our trust..." seems like a plausible start to mending the alliances that president very stable genius has been splintering for the last 2 years.
    See, this here is a horrible reason for anyone to celebrate Trump being exonerated. If a piece of trash like Trump got elected fairly, then there's something legit wrong with the people who voted for him. The only "sane" reason people would've voted for him would be to watch the world burn.

    Trump is not a good businessman, let alone a good person. He has zero idea how to actually be a president, that much has been made clear by his time in office. He misuses the military, negatively affects the US's relationship with other countries due to his personality alone, not counting all the shitty acts he's pulled off by acting buddy-buddy with goddamn dictators like the leader of NK and least of all, he is a threat to national security due to his irresponsibility by using his personal, old and non-secure cell phone for political calls.

    This ignores all the nepotism with his daughter doing political work that she has no experience or reason to be a part of, plus she and her husband getting security clearance without being cleared.

    Oh, and for some reason, most people have no problem with Trump actively making money via his businesses being used by people both in the government and other countries trying to curry his favor for political gain.

  20. #17260
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    and then when he comes out of it, he hands over the least significant teaser... just to build up the suspense? :P
    You appear to be slightly confused about what is happening.

    Mueller has not said anything publicly, nor handed out anything to the public. He submitted his entire report to the AG (William Barr). Said report has not been publicly released.

    What we have publicly available is a supposed summary (written without consulting Mueller) of that report produced by the AG, who has been involved in Republican crimes (e.g. Iran-Contra) going back to Reagan and H.W. Bush and who doesn't even think it's possible for the president to obstruct justice.

    I don't know about you, but I don't regard such a man as being particularly credible.
    Last edited by Masark; 2019-03-25 at 04:56 AM.

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