Mega-Thread: Mueller investigation

[Ripster42]

Seek professional help for your assaholism

Also, No means no Ripster.Suddenly, it doesn't seem that ironic your handle is slang for rapist.

So you got so mad when I pointed out reality that this is your response. Grats dude. Sorry that you've got rage issues.

Grand Jury is still active because their are still on going cases. Again, Roger Stone is an example. While the case is active, releasing the entire report could jeopardize any case in trial or pre-trial. The grand jury will remain until the affairs of Muellers investigation are in their disposition phase. Cases handed off to state prosecutors are separate from any federal investigation. States are capable of empaneling their own grand jury's.

It's certainly probable and likely quite a few leaks came from the white house. I have yet to see where that has been confirmed. I'm not talking about those, I'm talking about pre-empitive leaks to the media that shaped the coverage of the investigation the last 2 years and resulted in that video. I'm talking about leaks no one else would know about besides Muellers inner circle or their staff.

A judge certainly could. He/She would have to weigh doing long standing damage to the investigatory bodies, intel community, sources, methods, pave the way for an appeal and re-trial for any active case being tried by the grand jury, open up the grand jurors to harassment and media scrutiny, while simultaneously potentially releasing exculpatory evidence vs waiting 2-3 weeks for the report to be redacted and then at that time weighing the public interest against what hasn't been released. If these are GOP talking points, then they are logical and rational ones. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I agree with you the Trump tower meeting is suspicious to say the least. However, the statute for conspiracy is very clear, broad, and has an extremely low threshold.

Telling my tax accountant I'm not going to pay taxes is an example of how low this threshold is

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371

Despite what we know about the meeting 19 lawyers who were assisted by a team of approximately 40 FBI agents, intelligence analysts, forensic accountants, and other professional staff didn't find evidence that surpassed that threshold by a reasonable doubt despite the Special Counsel issuing more than 2,800 subpoenas, executing nearly 500 search warrants, obtaining more than 230 orders for communication records, issuing almost 50 orders authorizing use of pen registers, making 13 requests to foreign governments for evidence, and interviewing approximately 500 witnesses in conjunction with any potential evidence acquired during the counter intelligence investigation prior to SC Muellers appointment.

Tell me, what's your threshold for tolerable, active, intentional threats to national security? Mine is well below "beyond a reasonable doubt." Impeachment isn't sending trump to jail.

That being said, mueller's report didn't say no collusion. Mueller's investigation won't be over until all reasonable cases are tried (until at least stone's verdict is in, as he could reach a cooperation plea deal). If a grand jury is still ongoing, either they're still obtaining evidence from it, or they expect more indictments to come.

Releasing an unredacted report on whether or not the president is compromised, when we have ample public evidence he is, seems like it would be overwhelmingly in the public interest. Denying that is not "logical and rational." If they release excuplatory evidence, that's not an inherently bad thing. Grand jurors names would be essentially the only thing withheld. The retrials/appeals due to releasing grand jury info is laughable, as they already do voir dire. When the leadership of one of the branches of gov't is suspected of committing serious crimes, I'd say it's worth the "long standing damage" to have the report in the open (let alone in congress' hands).

Again, sorry about your rage issues, and no one buying your false flag.

[Mighty Tim]

"Totally made up and false."

Multiple indictments and guilty pleas. Russians and Russian meetings among multiple figures of Trump's campaign and the GOP. A mountain of evidence and Barr's own report says Trump is not exonerated. Assuming the Barr report is the truth, then Mueller couldn't get enough to criminally indict Trump himself, but that doesn't mean the whole thing was "totally made up and false." There's plenty of shit in his campaign, and not only that, there's 17 other investigations on going.

Right but there are no charges related to it and the drama fo the past what 3 years now hasn't been about tax fraud. People are just poking fun at people who hitched their cart to this nonsense.

[Ripster42]

Right but there are no charges related to it and the drama fo the past what 3 years now hasn't been about tax fraud. People are just poking fun at people who hitched their cart to this nonsense.

Weird how we found out about manafort coordinating with russians huh? His own lawyers messing up redactions.

[Mighty Tim]

Weird how we found out about manafort coordinating with russians huh? His own lawyers messing up redactions.

Alright? Isn't gonna change the current climate of people laughing at those with egg on their face.

[cubby]

Schiff, while talking about the Mueller subpoena -- oh, right, the HJC voted to subpoena the report if Barr doesn't hand it over of his own free will -- also said Mueller's testimony is mandatory.



Schiff was quite clear: Mueller found evidence of Russia attacking the election. There were indictments and everything. Mueller's report is a counterintelligence report. Congress needs to see it. End of story.

Agreed. And Trump is now backing away from the full report being released (if he was ever serious about it in the first place). I bet Barr finally found enough puppets to act out the main points so Trump would understand that he is fucked if the full, unedited report is released.

I expect some legal battles in having it released to Congress unedited. Something I'm not certain about is whether Mueller still has it in a form that he could release if requested. I know he answers to the Dept of Justice, and I also know he himself can be subpoenaed, but I don't know if someone like Schiff can subpoena the report from Mueller directly.

[Ripster42]

Alright? Isn't gonna change the current climate of people laughing at those with egg on their face.

Egg on their face? Again, we already know his campaign colluded, because manafort's lawyers messed up. How does that match up with what you're saying? It makes you look like you've got no idea what you're talking about.

[cubby]

Right but there are no charges related to it and the drama fo the past what 3 years now hasn't been about tax fraud. People are just poking fun at people who hitched their cart to this nonsense.

Wow? Really? You think the conclusions that you haven't read or seen or heard are nonsense. You think the multiple prison sentences and still sealed indictments are nonsense.

I can tell you from here it looks like most of your "thoughts" on this are nonsense. Let us know when you're ready to face reality and we'll talk.

[Daelak]

Another conspiracy theory? Check. The new FIXER!! OMG!

They said no collusion in the 4 page memo. But you want to see the report right? Well Mueller is helping with the redactions. You'll see it soon enough. If what William Barr said was wrong don't you think Mueller would come out and set the record straight? I mean this is the god king that you guys worshiped for two years and now you're turning on him. The spin is out of control.

Trust me - You'll find nothing in the report that says collusion or obstruction. What we will find is a bunch of other stories that the media will run with and help you on your quest to hate Trump more. It's kind of like Trump said in his tweet:

"There is no amount of testimony or document production that can satisfy Jerry Nadler or Shifty Adam Schiff."

He should change that tweet to:

"There is no amount of testimony or document production that can satisfy Jerry Nadler, Shifty Adam Schiff, or the Politics section of MMO-Champion.com's General Off Topic forum."

Mueller is subordinate to Barr. He cannot release nor comment on an investigation. Congress, via subpoena, since the AG is now explicitly stonewalling to ensure that the WH can get enough talking points disseminated before the HJC gets to see the unredacted report.

For anyone to accept a four page memo at face value from an AG who on his own volition wrote a 19 page memo regarding how Trump cannot be indicted, and who has successfully shielded a prior WH administration, is insane.

Barr is the quintessential party loyalist for over four decades. The entire segway from Sessions resignation, to Rosenstein's delayed resignation, to Barr's confirmation and consequential written Mueller summary should be under investigation for obstruction of justice itself. From an investigators POV, that entire series of events should warrant a whole host of ethical and obstruction investigations.

[Hobb]

Alright? Isn't gonna change the current climate of people laughing at those with egg on their face.

How is it egg on their face?

Even the report summary confirms Russia interfered with the 2016 election. Barr's summary however leaves out how much interference it caused.

[Thepersona]

I think it will in the long run. The greatest thing it has done is energize the base. That wins elections. It has become which side can energize their base more.

wtf?
it seems that the 2018 election (you know, the most recent one) dindn't happen for you... the polls there were mostly accurate, and there was a massive blue wave

[Sky High]

wtf?
it seems that the 2018 election (you know, the most recent one) dindn't happen for you... the polls there were mostly accurate, and there was a massive blue wave

well, to be fair the 30-35% of the voter population that makes up Trumps base and just so happens to think Obama is (to this day) a Kenyan Manchurian candidate must feel pretty good that their daddy was cleared up. all this really did was make people like Rachel Madow look insane, everyone else already knows or at least feels like Trump is crook.

[Thepersona]

well, to be fair the 30-35% of the voter population that makes up Trumps base and just so happens to think Obama is (to this day) a Kenyan Manchurian candidate must feel pretty good that their daddy was cleared up. all this really did was make people like Rachel Madow look insane, everyone else already knows or at least feels like Trump is crook.

I still wait for the Full release of the report though. I wont trust Barr on his word, in this case.
Like really, if the report clears the president (and in that case, makes his 2020 bid much more feasible), then why the hell he doesnt want to release it ASAP?

[Gigantique]

I mean, while I don’t think Barr would outright lie in his memo, he IS a lawyer, and twisting words is pretty much in their nature. I don’t need the Mueller report to condemn Trump to know he’s a person exhibiting traits I loathe, politician or private person. But trusting someone who had written beforehand that he was pretty much in camp-Trump? Naw, I want the hard proof or at least have it be vetted by someone who isn’t painfully leaning on one side over the other.

Just like I wouldn’t trust the word of someone who had a precedent for being heavily into camp-Obama saying the birther thing is bogus and «bro trust me». Even though I laugh at the entire birther concept, that persons’ word is inherently biased and shouldn’t be taken for granted without something to back it up.

Release the full report to Congress, redact it to fit the public, then release that. Will someone just stand up and stand for the principles already, jeeez.

[Breccia]

I mean, while I don’t think Barr would outright lie in his memo, he IS a lawyer

*cough cough Cohen cough covfefe*

Oh, sorry.

Yes, Barr would be foolish to outright lie. Which is why he said things like "we're not going forward" (truth) rather than "there is no evidence" about obstruction. He went on the record saying Trump did not personally collude with Russia -- which, incidentally, if his staff and family did by his instruction isn't even a defense -- and little to nothing else.

I agree: Congress needs the full, unredacted report (at least, people in Intelligence, Oversight and Judiciary at least) and the longer it takes, the worse it looks. If Team Trump is 100% squeaky clean, we'd have it posted on every Wal-Mart by now.

[Mighty Tim]

How is it egg on their face?

Even the report summary confirms Russia interfered with the 2016 election. Barr's summary however leaves out how much interference it caused.

It would require me to explain the effects of public perception and knowing these forums that would end in pointless tailspin of whataboutism.

[Endus]

I still wait for the Full release of the report though. I wont trust Barr on his word, in this case.
Like really, if the report clears the president (and in that case, makes his 2020 bid much more feasible), then why the hell he doesnt want to release it ASAP?

I mean, even in Barr's summary, he had to say that the report did not exonerate the President.

This is like admitting that no, the "not guilty" verdict on OJ Simpson was not an exoneration; the evidence just didn't pass beyond a reasonable doubt, for the jury. Which is why Simpson lost the wrongful death civil suit, since civil suits are only held to the standard of "the preponderance of the evidence". "Yeah, he probably killed her, but he might not have", basically.

Same could easily be true, here. "Yeah, Trump probably was deliberately colluding with Russia against America's interests, but he might just be a complete fucking moron."

I'd assume Barr doesn't want it coming out, precisely because I imagine the evidence probably amounts to that "preponderance of the evidence" standard.

[cubby]

*cough cough Cohen cough covfefe*

Oh, sorry.

Yes, Barr would be foolish to outright lie. Which is why he said things like "we're not going forward" (truth) rather than "there is no evidence" about obstruction. He went on the record saying Trump did not personally collude with Russia -- which, incidentally, if his staff and family did by his instruction isn't even a defense -- and little to nothing else.

I agree: Congress needs the full, unredacted report (at least, people in Intelligence, Oversight and Judiciary at least) and the longer it takes, the worse it looks. If Team Trump is 100% squeaky clean, we'd have it posted on every Wal-Mart by now.

Precisely. The fact that Team Shitstain is already pivoting away from this "victory [Gin?]" and into more complete incompetence tells us a LOT about what the report actually says. And they are all avoiding the full release, which tells us a LOT.

- - - Updated - - -

It would require me to explain the effects of public perception and knowing these forums that would end in pointless tailspin of whataboutism.

Try again? It would require you to actually be intellectually honest, something you have yet to achieve in these hallowed forums.

Seriously though, if you want to actually engage in debate, do so. Answer why the full report isn't being immediately released to Congress (who holds the necessary clearances to view even the most Top Secret sources/methods)? If the report exonerates Trump, show us.

[Dacien]

You don't have to remind me about the genesis of any investigations. I've been talking about the Genesis of the FISA warrants, which were based on nothing, and the media's coverage of Trump's "Russian collusion" which is also based on nothing. By "nothing" I mean, there is literally no evidence of Trump-Russian collusion. So if there is not now, and has never been evidence of Trump colluding with Russia, then all the talk from all the pundits and the 2 year investigation of "Trump-Russian collusion" have all been based on nothing.

I really hope more digging can be done into the FISA abuse scandal. Then-Deputy Director of the FBI Andrew McCabe flatly stated that without the Steele Dossier, there would have been no FISA warrant. Information used to obtain a FISA warrant to spy on an American citizen requires verification, and James Comey stated that the dossier was never verified at any time.

The only reason we know as much about it as we do is because of the work of Devin Nunes. His detractors said he was running interference for a guilty president, and his proponents were exclaiming that he was uncovering abuse. We can sort of see which was which now.

Anyway, there's a scandal there, but I don't know if the American populace has the appetite for it.

[Ripster42]

I'd assume Barr doesn't want it coming out, precisely because I imagine the evidence probably amounts to that "preponderance of the evidence" standard.

The public evidence is already at the "preponderance of the evidence" standard. I'm guessing it probably reaches the "clear and convincing" standard, as they're still redacting stuff about the campaign literally coordinating with russians, just not provably official govt russians.

[cubby]

Anybody who was scrutinizing and paying attention knew this years ago. It was clear sometime around mid-2017 that this wasn't the conspiracy we were worried about, but a politically-motivated attack against a candidate who wasn't supposed to win. A cottage industry rose up that fed people what they wanted to hear: Trump is even worse than you thought. Treasonous, conspiring with foreign agents to rig our elections. The death penalty for some involved could be on the table, some said. This drove clicks, it drove revenue, and it drove the narrative. But anybody who was paying attention realized what this was a long, long time ago.

You'll still see people clinging to it, because what's the alternative? To say what you just said? Never. This is a political war with no rules of engagement. So the formerly-pristine Mueller, the paragon of professionalism with his own cult following complete with reverent T-shirts suddenly needs to be subpoenaed to find out what he's not telling us. They don't really believe any of that, the people pushing this, but as I said, this is a political war. And it's profitable.

Why do you still believe the lies you were objectively proven wrong about?

Remind us again who appointed Mueller? So not a political attack.
Remind us again who's read the full report? So no one vindicated at all.

What is really sad is that people like you still cling to being right, when we've known for almost years now that Trump is a felon - both before, during, and post election. There is plenty of evidence supporting the objective claims that Trump is a felon, just not convicted yet.