Mega-Thread: Mueller investigation

[Benggaul]

People act like Trump was exonerated because Mueller didn't charge him, so obviously if impeachment failed it would mean he is innocent of everything ever and actually is the chosen one.

I believe that's the perceived fear, yes.

HELL, look how many of the same people on MMO that were going "Mueller never charged him so nothing else about the report matters! FULL EXONERATION!!!" are now claiming the reason that impeachment hasnt started is proof that its not warranted.

There is something to be said for not giving Trump and his screeching band the abilty to say "the impeachment didnt convict, FULL EXONERATION!!!!" cause thats what theyll do the moment the GOP block votes no

Exactly. Having the high moral ground is nice, but as we've seen the past two years it means absolutely nothing in politics anymore. Particularly when the GOP just plain don't have to care about whether they're right or wrong because they have the majority in the Senate. For now.

[Breccia]

House subpoena's Porter.

“Rob Porter was prominently featured in the Special Counsel’s description of President Trump’s efforts to obstruct justice by directing then-White House Counsel Don McGahn to fire the Special Counsel, and then ordering him to lie about it," Nadler said in a statement.

According to former special counsel Robert Mueller's report, the president ordered Porter to ask then-White House counsel Don McGahn to create a misleading record that claimed Trump never asked McGahn to remove Mueller, who was investigating Russian interference and possible obstruction.

Trump directed McGahn to have Mueller removed, according to the report, but McGhan refused to follow through with the order, instead drafting a resignation letter that he ultimately did not submit. Trump then reportedly attempted to change the narrative by ordering Porter to create a record refuting McGahn's account.

“The President told Porter that the article was ‘bullshit’ and he had not sought to terminate the Special Counsel. The President said that McGahn leaked to the media to make himself look good," according to the 448-page report.

"The President then directed Porter to tell McGahn to create a record to make clear that the President never directed McGahn to fire the Special Counsel. Porter thought the matter should be handled by the White House communications office, but the President said he wanted McGahn to write a letter to the file ‘for our records’ and wanted something beyond a press statement to demonstrate that the reporting was inaccurate."

I hope Porter thinks this was all worth it for his $130,000

[cubby]

HELL, look how many of the same people on MMO that were going "Mueller never charged him so nothing else about the report matters! FULL EXONERATION!!!" are now claiming the reason that impeachment hasnt started is proof that its not warranted.

There is something to be said for not giving Trump and his screeching band the abilty to say "the impeachment didnt convict, FULL EXONERATION!!!!" cause thats what theyll do the moment the GOP block votes no

I agree with the sentiment you're conveying, and I've historically been on the fence regarding Articles for Trump. My thoughts on this are that the Trumpsters aren't going to change their mind "all of a sudden" with new evidence, or even if it were possible for a Senate conviction after the House Impeachment vote. They would hand-wave and excuse and swallow whatever Trump feeds them.

So their viewpoint should really be ignored (and you'll see me saying this [hopefully] in the coming years). Because their viewpoint is objectively ignorant.

Therefore, the only question should be what the thinking portion of society will do. The right thing? The moral thing? How will it impact the 2020 election? Will an Impeachment vote (and subsequent Senate failure) affect the outcome? Who knows. Because we don't know, in this case, doing the right thing is the right thing. A straightforward Articles and vote doesn't actually take that long, and if Pelosi plays it right, it can carry the correct significance and then be done.

[Felya]

Impeachment vote or not, this is what I feel the next election comes down to. The results will tell us how America is to be viewed by the rest of the world. A course correction and most of our allies can laugh it off in a few years as "that time America got wasted". A continuation? That means the status quo of normalized morality, abject lying, obvious corruption, and a leader that insults all that America used to hold dear. I fear the latter more than anything right now. The adults need to step up next year like they did for the mid-terms.

A correction won't fix our underlying issues, but at least average Americans don't have to see the total lack of morals on TV or on twitter by their leader. They can send the 2016 trolls back to lurking on news comments sections and 4chan.

That’s not really fair. The average, which I consider to be the majority, doesn’t support nor voted for Trump. What if Trump loses the popular vote, by an even wider margin. While winning electoral by a narrower? I think this would be an issue for America to deal with, but the re-election wouldn’t speak against American people for our choice. The majority of US didn’t vote Trump and more of us voted for his opponent, in the first place.

[zmp]

So when is this Mueller guy - whoever he is - going to remove Trump? Liberals are losing faith already :'(

[rda]

People act like Trump was exonerated because Mueller didn't charge him, so obviously if impeachment failed it would mean he is innocent of everything ever and actually is the chosen one.

Mueller didn't charge him because he had little to charge with.

I know it is popular to refer to the DOJ policy and imply that Mueller didn't charge only because of that policy and that if only that policy didn't exist or Trump wouldn't be president, then Mueller would have definitely charged, but Mueller himself said a number of times that this is not the case. He tried to instill that idea by his rhetoric but every time he was asked directly about it he backed down and said that no, this would be an incorrect interpretation.

So, yeah. Mueller didn't charge Trump because there was nothing worth charging him with.

And nobody else was charged on Russian conspiracy either. Except those Russian officers who of course can be charged with whatever you want, these charges won't ever be applied anyway.

[Ripster42]

Most of us who want to see impeachment proceedings know it's gonna fail in the Senate. We're not suggesting the Democrats in the House spend any real political capital to get it through. Just punch it through the House, make the Senate vote on it, and get every representative's vote on the public record on the matter.

It's that last bit that we're hoping to get out of all this, not an actual removal of Trump from the role of POTUS.

Eh, once an impeachment inquiry starts, there's literally no basis for withholding the counterintel report from the judiciary committee, which mueller said he left out of the report.

I fear we won’t get to a Senate vote before the election at this point.

Congress has been in their summer recess.

[DarkTZeratul]

Right. And with all the recesses they take it’ll be next year before it even hits the Senate, let alone gets through the process during an election year.

McConnell cannot legally block it the way he has so much legislation. Once it goes through the House, the Senate is constitutionally required to take it up immediately. Of course, he's also promised to rush through the trial as quickly as possible so every Republican can vote no without having to bother with things like facts or evidence, but that's a whole other matter.

[cubby]

Impeachment vote or not, this is what I feel the next election comes down to. The results will tell us how America is to be viewed by the rest of the world. A course correction and most of our allies can laugh it off in a few years as "that time America got wasted". A continuation? That means the status quo of normalized morality, abject lying, obvious corruption, and a leader that insults all that America used to hold dear. I fear the latter more than anything right now. The adults need to step up next year like they did for the mid-terms.

A correction won't fix our underlying issues, but at least average Americans don't have to see the total lack of morals on TV or on twitter by their leader. They can send the 2016 trolls back to lurking on news comments sections and 4chan.

I couldn't agree more. The 2020 election is an indictment on our country as a whole. Are we going to realize our mistake and get him out or do we "double down" and dive further towards The Handmaid's Tale.

Honestly - if we give Trump four more years, I don't see us recovering for decades (if ever).

[Felya]

And, honestly, it doesn't matter if the majority don't support him. We still have to deal with him. That's democracy.

That’s what I meant by being an American problem. That’s something to be handled internally, not justified in external criticism.

- - - Updated - - -

I couldn't agree more. The 2020 election is an indictment on our country as a whole. Are we going to realize our mistake and get him out or do we "double down" and dive further towards The Handmaid's Tale.

Honestly - if we give Trump four more years, I don't see us recovering for decades (if ever).

Giving Trump 4 more years, also makes him reap what he has sowed for the previous 4. At this point, when the recession hits, it’s already going to be blamed on who ever is next. Everything from loss of soft power to the deficit to the corporate hand outs, will be blamed on the next guy. You already can see the building blocks in the echoes of corporatist democrats...

I want him gone regardless of who gets the blame. But, we should already know the next act... we’ve seen this play before.

[Breccia]

Deutsche Bank said in a court filing Tuesday that it has tax returns relevant to House Democrats' subpoenas for financial records of President Trump, his family and his businesses, but the bank didn't publicly identify whose returns it had.

Innnnnnnnnnteresting. They've been slow to provide anything, including names on the returns. But they're publicly saying they have some of relevance.

Also, where's NYState? I thought they were ready to hand over Trump's returns by now.

[cubby]

Deutsche Bank said in a court filing Tuesday that it has tax returns relevant to House Democrats' subpoenas for financial records of President Trump, his family and his businesses, but the bank didn't publicly identify whose returns it had.

Innnnnnnnnnteresting. They've been slow to provide anything, including names on the returns. But they're publicly saying they have some of relevance.

Also, where's NYState? I thought they were ready to hand over Trump's returns by now.

Those tax records are going to come out, the NYState ones sooner than the federal, but we will see them - eventually. I cannot wait to see what Trump was so afraid of.

I think Trump/Sue-Machine has filed suit to prevent those records from being released. Should be a short process.

[swiftowner]

Those tax records are going to come out, the NYState ones sooner than the federal, but we will see them - eventually. I cannot wait to see what Trump was so afraid of.

I think Trump/Sue-Machine has filed suit to prevent those records from being released. Should be a short process.

From the shitshow thread... this might be something he was trying to hide...

Lawrence O'Donnell reporting that a source close to Deutsche Bank has said that Trump's loans from the bank, when nobody else would loan to him, have Russian oligarchs as co-signers. He's stipulating that this hasn't been confirmed by any other sources, but this could be a real (and entirely expected) bombshell if true.

Compromised much?

[Breccia]

Compromised much?

As I said on that thread, let's wait for more evidence. One guy tweeting is alarming, but we don't have proof yet. Deutsche Bank does, and they're complying with subpoenas. If this is true, we'll know about it soon enough.

[Gestopft]

As I said on that thread, let's wait for more evidence. One guy tweeting is alarming, but we don't have proof yet. Deutsche Bank does, and they're complying with subpoenas. If this is true, we'll know about it soon enough.

Pretty much. It's why I didn't start a thread with just that nugget. If the actual documents come out and confirm it, there'll be a new thread where the usual suspects can "BuT HILLAREEEEEEEEEEEE" as hard as they have ever "BUT HILLAREEEEEEE'd"

[mvaliz]

As I said on that thread, let's wait for more evidence. One guy tweeting is alarming, but we don't have proof yet. Deutsche Bank does, and they're complying with subpoenas. If this is true, we'll know about it soon enough.

Agreed...

...but, oh man, that would explain a WHOLE lot if true!

[zenkai]

Putting down 10 to 1 odds that Trump will not be impeached, anyone want to take my offer?

[Ghostpanther]

Putting down 10 to 1 odds that Trump will not be impeached, anyone want to take my offer?

Lol! Really going out on a limb. I think you are a safe winner. But it is possible the Democrats will impeach ( strictly for political reasons ), but it will never be approved by the Senate.

[Dontrike]

Putting down 10 to 1 odds that Trump will not be impeached, anyone want to take my offer?

Wow, you mean Republicans won't turn on Trump? No way! Who could have seen that amazing prediction coming?

[Daelak]

Lol! Really going out on a limb. I think you are a safe winner. But it is possible the Democrats will impeach ( strictly for political reasons ), but it will never be approved by the Senate.

How would an impeachment not be a political reason? You still have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.