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  1. #1

    Protection Gearing for Antorus

    Hello friends!

    Anyone have a bis list they've started? Figured I'd ask before I reinvented the wheel. Mostly of raid drops, obviously higher roll M+ items etc. might overwrite good items in Antorus.

    Also, how are we looking for overall stat budget. With higher items, are we still going over 30% haste, should we stack mastery/vers after that?

    Is 4 piece worth it this tier? If so, which 4 pieces are people looking at.

    I haven't had as much time to really dig into it and with thanksgiving in the way I figured I'd see what's out there before I waste time on it if someone already did all the fun math.

    Thanks!

    Chew~

  2. #2
    you go 4p t20 and 2p t21 no matter the ilvl (unless they nerf t20)
    Legendaries:
    1.The Walls Fell
    2. Belt or Bracers

    with that setup you will get absurd amount of rage and ST dps and also very very reduced CD on defensive abilities

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal View Post
    you go 4p t20 and 2p t21 no matter the ilvl (unless they nerf t20)
    which they will if everyone keeps using it

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    which they will if everyone keeps using it
    I hope to god. It sucks not to be able to use any leggos that share a tier spot.

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire Llarold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal View Post
    you go 4p t20 and 2p t21 no matter the ilvl (unless they nerf t20)
    Legendaries:
    1.The Walls Fell
    2. Belt or Bracers

    with that setup you will get absurd amount of rage and ST dps and also very very reduced CD on defensive abilities
    Marok made a good post about this a few weeks back. While it makes perfect sense now, I definitely don't expect T20 bonuses to actually get into Antorus un-nerfed.

    If T20 gets nerfed into oblivion, the standard gear setup in Antorus will probably be the same as it was in ToS: 4p tier, Gloves, and Bracers/Belt depending on fight.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Llarold View Post
    Marok made a good post about this a few weeks back. While it makes perfect sense now, I definitely don't expect T20 bonuses to actually get into Antorus un-nerfed.

    If T20 gets nerfed into oblivion, the standard gear setup in Antorus will probably be the same as it was in ToS: 4p tier, Gloves, and Bracers/Belt depending on fight.
    Yes I'm expecting this to happen too. But we can at least have one week of glory

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal View Post
    you go 4p t20 and 2p t21 no matter the ilvl
    Quote Originally Posted by Llarold View Post
    Marok made a good post about this a few weeks back. While it makes perfect sense now, I definitely don't expect T20 bonuses to actually get into Antorus un-nerfed.
    I want to point out that some combination of 2p+4p will technically be best for almost every class/spec, because why wouldn't it? It's free extra set bonus for "nothing".
    It's the availability of competitive item level of "old" tier that pushes it out eventually.


    Now, more specifically: Marok's post is great, it identifies all/most of the relevant gearing options and outlines the thought process to calculate the value of different options to choose the best one.

    Unfortunately there are some calculation mistakes in the post, most importantly the way he adds up cooldown reduction effects is incorrect.

    For example:
    Quote Originally Posted by Marok
    With moderate damage intake, Battle Cry has a ~25 second cooldown with Anger Management. With that extra 55 rage, that's an additional 55 / 10 = 5.5 seconds off Battle Cry's cooldown. That's 60 / 19.5 * 55 = ~169 extra rage every minute.
    When the correct way to calculate this is:
    BC has ~25s cooldown. Extra 55 rage per BC reduces the base CD further by 5.5s -> 5.5 * 25/60 (AM reduction) = 2.3s reduction, for a new BC cooldown of 22.7s
    That's 60/22.7 * 55 = 145 extra rage per minute.
    It's slightly un-intuitive (which is why Marok made the mistake in the first place) and I don't want to go into details here, PM me or ask on warrior discord, if you want an explanation. We already discussed it on discord and I talked to Marok as well and we agreed on this, but Marok is busy and presumably doesn't have time to redo all the math and rewrite his blog post.

    This much is a general consensus of the theorycrafters as far as can tell.

    From now on, it's just my take on things FWIW.

    Now, as far as the tier bonuses go, Marok's results were as follows:
    Quote Originally Posted by Marok
    Laying it all out (in extra absorb per minute):

    Tier 20 2 set - 1,968,532
    Tier 20 4 set - 1,563,787
    Tier 21 2 set - 4,967,325 (actually more because we are not considering other increases to IP)
    Tier 21 4 set - 1,760,000 (more in better situations)

    t21 4p
    IP has ~ 50 % up-time, but it's important to note that the IP is being depleted by the incoming hit.
    Which means it is more often up right before an attack and down right after.
    So with "only" 50 % up-time, you still have it active for way more than 50 % of incoming attacks. (I will use a 60 % estimate later.)

    Another thing is that there is no reason to even consider tanking up-time. You can think about it in this way, but then you have to do the same for everything. How good is passive armor from gear and DMC? Well it's only 50 % of its perceived value, because half the time we are not taking any physical damage etc.
    Since we do not do this for armor (or anything else really), there is no point to single out t21 4p in this way. We should just assume we are tanking damage. It's not like we are going to die from not taking damage because 4p didn't activate in those times...

    With these considerations, we are looking at 0.6 * 6,600,000 extra absorb per minute, or ~4m.
    That is way more competitive with t20 4p value. Marok's proposed value of this 4p is 1.56m, but with the extra Shield Slams from t21 2p, the cooldown of Berserker's Rage is reduced a bit more and I think it's closer to 22s, making the value of t20 4p around 2m.

    t20 also generates rage rather than pure IP, providing additional benefit through AM.
    So, the absorbs from our set bonuses are closer to:
    t20 2p - 2m
    t20 4p - 2m
    t21 2p - ? (I didn't redo all the math, but I agree with Marok that it's easily the best bonus anyway.)
    t21 4p - 4m (but it's direct IP, no rage)
    Some other things that need to be taken into account when gearing up:
    • t20 generally has lower item level, even if you have some nice TF, very few people have 4 pieces of 950 to keep a full 4set at competitive item level
    • combination of 2+4 set will force worse itemization (as an easy example, I think that both tier helms have huge amount of crit and you will have to equip one of them to get all bonuses)
    • how good are legendary gloves? Are they better than belt/ring in a vacuum, making them partially off-set the lost value from another set bonus?

    It is my opinion that Marok underestimates t21 4p bonus and I know for a fact that any rage gain bonuses are overestimated quite a bit because of the mistake in CDR calculations (making both t20 bonuses seem a lot stronger than they really are).

    Now, this sentence is not backed by any numbers as to the CDR value of t20 because I did not redo all the math either, but it is my tentative guess that for most people t21 4p will outperform t20 4p because of the item level difference.


    TL;DR: t20 4p + t21 2p might be the best setup depending on many factors, but it's not conclusive at this point and certainly not best by as high margin as Marok's post suggests.
    Last edited by Meiffert; 2017-11-14 at 09:03 AM.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Llarold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meiffert View Post
    TL;DR: t20 4p + t21 2p might be the best setup depending on many factors, but it's not conclusive at this point and certainly not best by as high margin as Marok's post suggests.
    This is a great post. Without wanting to continue beating the long-deceased "I Expect Nerfs" horse, I sincerely expect that by the time Mythic Antorus is live, Kakushan's will outperform T20 bonuses (and T21 + Ring) in terms of Rage generation.

    The counterpoint to Marok's original post about the much higher relative value of T21 4p is reassuring. I was very certain based on my own math and PTR testing that the 4p, despite not generating Rage (which *is* a real drawback) is worth a significant amount of damage reduction. I'm glad to see my prior reasoning wasn't just totally wrong.

  9. #9
    if we assume a 50% nerf to t20 set bonusses, is 4set t20 still the way to go?

  10. #10
    Hmmm, what 4 pieces of current tier are ideal? Having them at 920-935 enough or do we just start to drop them for 4 piece T21 once we hit over the 945ish threshold?

    Is Marok's post on here, or warrior discord somewhere? I should probably join that.

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire KrotosTheTank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewtoy View Post
    Hmmm, what 4 pieces of current tier are ideal? Having them at 920-935 enough or do we just start to drop them for 4 piece T21 once we hit over the 945ish threshold?

    Is Marok's post on here, or warrior discord somewhere? I should probably join that.
    It's on the warrior discord and his post is on his website, here.

    https://bastionofdefense.com/tier21/ the link to the discord is on top of his site

    that said, to answer your question, you want to lose the least w/ your T20, meaning to go for large pieces (chest/helm/legs) w/ T21.

  12. #12
    So something like:
    Iron - Decimator Crankshaft - Kin'gorath - bastion
    Blood - Cruor of the Avenger - Argus - armor
    Fire - Pyretic Bronze Clasp - Aggramar - armor or Tormentor's Brand - Varimathras - IP

    Tier 20 4, Tier 21 2p
    Helm - Tier 21 Helm Crit/Vers - Aggramar
    Neck - Riveted Choker of Delirium - Varimathras
    Shoulders - Tier 20 - Haste/Vers
    Back - Tier 20 Crit/Mast
    Chest - Tier 21 - Eonar Haste/Mast
    Bracers - legendary, Off - Vambraces of Life's Assurance Eonar
    Gloves - Tier 20 crit/vers
    Belt - Flamelicked Girdle - Haste/Vers or Grond-father Girdle - Aggramar haste/mastery
    Legs - T20 - Vers/Mast
    Feet - Burning Coven Sabatons - Coven haste/mast
    Ring 1 - legendary or Seal of the Portalmaster - PKH hast/vers
    Ring 2 - Loop of the Lifebinder - Eonar haste/mast

    Trinket - Are we using Aman'thul, probably to help raid get bonus yes and stat stick?
    Trinket 2 - DMC? does eye of f'harg beat it out?
    Apocalypse drive for the haste?
    Aggramars? vers proc
    Diima for things like Eonar?
    Smoldering Titanguard?


    And if T21 4 piece overtakes it and/or T20 nerf
    Helm - Off - Helmet of the Hidden Sanctuary - Eonar
    Neck - Riveted Choker of Delirium - Varimathras
    Shoulders - Tier 20 - Haste/Vers - Tier 21 Crit/mast - Coven, Off - For Haste - Pauldrons of the Eternal Offense - Antoran High Command or Shoulderguards of Indomitable Purpose - Imonar vers/mast
    Back - Tier 21 cloak - Haste/Vers - ATC
    Chest - Tier 21 - Eonar Haste/Mast
    Bracers - legendary, Off - Vambraces of Life's Assurance Eonar
    Gloves - Tier 21 - Haste/Mastery - Kin'garoth
    Belt - Flamelicked Girdle - Haste/Vers or Grond-father Girdle - Aggramar haste/mastery
    Legs - T 21 - Crit/vers Imonar
    Feet - Burning Coven Sabatons - Coven haste/mast
    Ring 1 - legendary or Seal of the Portalmaster - PKH hast/vers
    Ring 2 - Loop of the Lifebinder - Eonar haste/mast

    That look about right?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Chewtoy View Post
    That look about right?
    How much haste do both sets have? That's certainly more crit than I would prefer wearing.

    I'm personally not bothering with 4pT20. I'll try to wear 2p as long as possible but I have two small luxuries many don't have: My Heroic Shoulders have a socket, my Heroic Pants are 940.

  14. #14
    For now mixing T20 4p and T21 2p is the way to go. If the T20 bonuses get nerfed (which I expect to happen once Mythic is cleared) I'm not even sure we will use the T21 4p. The bonus just doesn't seem very useful to me, especially on progression where IP gets squashed very fast.

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