Beta Key Giveaway Week 3: Winners have been selected!

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  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans Niwes's Avatar
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    shadow will suck again. why? i look back at 13 years of wow (praise the lord not 13 years as a spriest). i NOWHERE see either a top dps class, nor an aoe viable class. besides some really short moments, mostly of false game design (S2M 7.0 says hello) i see „fine spriest“ in history of wow. ofc, long ago spriest was a good mana battery. yeah. but, seriously: NO.

    or in short: you had never been and will never be a competitive class to rogues/locks/mages nor you will ever not suck in aoe. 13 year wow history tell you why.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    This is never the answer, tho. That shouldn’t be the case. Every spec should be viable.
    What is your definition of viability?

    Also does viable = competitive?

    Because I'm positive there are folks out there doing +15 with an Spriest in their group, but they aren't doing so competitively.

  3. #23
    Dont roll shadow if you want to be in higher end PvE content.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    What is your definition of viability?

    Also does viable = competitive?

    Because I'm positive there are folks out there doing +15 with an Spriest in their group, but they aren't doing so competitively.
    I never even mentioned the word competitive, so that’s not what I mean. And no, viability does not = competitive. Viable means just that - viable. Able to be played and contribute. Competitive is something else entirely.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicymemer View Post
    Dont roll shadow if you want to be in higher end PvE content.
    That’s just simply not true. If we’re talking classic-WoD, then yes. But in Legion with the right leggos Spriest can dominate mythic raiding. Certainly viable.

  5. #25
    Would be nice if Blizzard baselined Shadow Crash, and replaces it with a new talent.

    Legacy of the Void ought to be a Tier 1 talent as well... can't imagine levelling a shadow priest without it, the pain...

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    That’s just simply not true. If we’re talking classic-WoD, then yes. But in Legion with the right leggos Spriest can dominate mythic raiding. Certainly viable.
    If thats your experience, its a unique one.
    Shadow is not a highly valuable spec, it doesnt provide anything uniquely powerful.
    Boomkins are just as good at multi target and they provide innervate and battle res.
    Warlocks are just as good multi target, execute and provide better raid support with healthstones and portals.
    Mages, Rogues and hunters Provide soaks.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Spicymemer View Post
    If thats your experience, its a unique one.
    Shadow is not a highly valuable spec, it doesnt provide anything uniquely powerful.
    Boomkins are just as good at multi target and they provide innervate and battle res.
    Warlocks are just as good multi target, execute and provide better raid support with healthstones and portals.
    Mages, Rogues and hunters Provide soaks.
    You need to understand the difference between mythic raiding and competitive mythic raiding. Not every mythic raiding guild is US top 100 fighting for world firsts. There's a very distinct line between competitive and viable, like I've already explained two posts above.

    Therefore, Spriests can be completely viable in mythic raiding scenarios.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    You need to understand the difference between mythic raiding and competitive mythic raiding. Not every mythic raiding guild is US top 100 fighting for world firsts. There's a very distinct line between competitive and viable, like I've already explained two posts above.

    Therefore, Spriests can be completely viable in mythic raiding scenarios.
    Just ignore that guy, he's pretty much just an idiot, shadowpriests were used on a lot of top end kills much better than just top 100(Also one thing that always bothers me, why say top 100 US, why not just top 100, if anything saying top 100 US just makes your argument a lot worse as you'd have to go to some guilds that while decent can hardly be considered top guilds before you find number 100 there).
    Last edited by Fleckens; 2017-11-19 at 02:58 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleckens View Post
    Just ignore that guy, he's pretty much just an idiot, shadowpriests were used on a lot of top end kills much better than just top 100(Also one thing that always bothers me, why say top 100 US, why not just top 100, if anything saying top 100 US just makes your argument a lot worse as you'd have to go to some guilds that while decent can hardly be considered top guilds before you find number 100 there).
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the world first mythic KJ kill also featured a Shadow Priest.
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  10. #30
    Only because the raid leader was their shadow priest, Method said they wished he was a mage instead.

  11. #31
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    I'm pretty sure that even the raid leaders got good quality alts so thats not the only reason to bring Shadow priest into a progress.

    Shadow priest is strong mythic raid progress spec. When gears gets high and things star to die faster, shadow becomes shit. In 2 min farm fights, there is no time to catch up with other classes burst dps and even the execute phase is not long enough on those kills to make it even. Adds dies faster so you don't benefit alot AS and ToF procs from them too.

    But this thread was about dungeons right. Long ramp up on voidform is the biggest problem imo. Multidotting is already pretty strong aoe but the peak of dot dmg happens at 40-60 seconds inside Voidform. When we get rid of Mass Hysteria and if they tune baseline Voidform to last like max 30 sec insted of 60 sec, we would already be in much better place. Also baseline Shadow Crash or buff in Mind Sear would be good and simple solutions. So I really think Shadow can be good as any other spec in next expansion.
    Elistan of the Nightfall - Human priest
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by jobbly View Post
    Only because the raid leader was their shadow priest, Method said they wished he was a mage instead.
    Scripe has plenty of alts, they do like 4 splits and raid like 18 hours a day during progression. They're a serious raiding guild actively fighting for world first, he wouldn't have played a spec that gimped his raid team. He played a shadow priest because shadow is really good on KJ. The execute phase on progression was extremely long and being able to DoT the Erupting Reflections brings shadow from just about the worst spec on normal/heroic KJ to just about the best spec on mythic.
    Last edited by colinberan; 2017-11-19 at 10:59 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by colinberan View Post
    Scripe has plenty of alts, they do like 4 splits and raid like 18 hours a day during progression. They're a serious raiding guild actively fighting for world first, he wouldn't have played a spec that gimped his raid team. He played a shadow priest because shadow is really good on KJ. The execute phase on progression was extremely long and being able to DoT the Erupting Reflections brings shadow from just about the worst spec on normal/heroic KJ to just about the best spec on mythic.
    Yeah we really aren't too bad on mythic KJ, perhaps slightly worse now where the fight is shorter but when I was progressing even phase 1 was quite long and the adds lived long enough for us to do good damage, and of course last phase we do very well, on our kill I was quite a bit ahead of the 2nd on dps. And of course on avatar we were really damn solid as well.

    The main issue shadow has is that we scale with how well the rest of our group is doing, this is especially apparent in mythic+. Since my guild disbanded after killing KJ a lot of the people I used to play with have quit/play a lot less and so I usually just pug my weekly mythic+ and since the dps in those pugs are usually a lot worse than the players I normally ran with stuff lives a lot longer and I get to absolutely trash the dps meters.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Spicymemer View Post
    If thats your experience, its a unique one.
    Shadow is not a highly valuable spec, it doesnt provide anything uniquely powerful.
    Boomkins are just as good at multi target and they provide innervate and battle res.
    Warlocks are just as good multi target, execute and provide better raid support with healthstones and portals.
    Mages, Rogues and hunters Provide soaks.
    Not sure where to start... Do you know how silly it sounds ? Your argument would be viable ONLY if you were in a top 1 guild. Otherwise it's pointless. I don't care about the others teams. I don't even know who is the world 2nd team who finished that mythic raiding simply because it's pointless. Sorry son, that's how the world works.

    Boomkins have brez sure, but if you're serious about mythic raiding, you'd already have gotten a druid or two. Same for warlocks. Concerning warlock : If you're using portals a lot, I'll automatically assume your raid is lazy. Sure it saves a lot of travel time and whatnot, but the point is, your raid isn't supposed to use it if they want to rush the world first.
    Anyway, it's not like you don't have a warlock in your raid either.

    I just don't understand why you won't aknowledge what the word "viable" is. Are they last in the DPS meter ? No. Are they totally useless when it comes to passive mitigation ? No. Are they... Whatever you can think of, I'm pretty sure the answer is "no".

    You're too nitpicky. I'm not sure you realize how silly it sounds. It's pointless to bring this argument, you're not even in the top 1 world first (unless you are). Why does it matter ? Take a break dude, drink some water, go out, meet some friends and come back 1 year later. You'll soon realize how much wasted time you've spent in this game. The primary focus of this game is to have fun. Not to talk about how you should've brought a warlock or a boomkin instead of a spriest because you're in the top100 guild. Hell, I'd be surprised if my teamate even know the top 10 world first mythics raids (hint : they don't).

    Peace.

  15. #35
    Why do people in this thread not understand that my arguments arent for the top 100 or whatever.

    Lets say you're progressing through tomb, which fights do you go out of your way say 'regardless of our current raid composition, it would be beneficial to have a shadow priest'.

    Fallen Avatar is probably the only fight where this statement could be applied.

    Yeah shadow can provide some niche benefits during DI, Deso, Mistress, but 2 of those fights are a joke and the last one is all about the execution.

    No mythic guild has 20 members, theres always subs and if you're pushing for progress, shadow priest isnt near the top of that list.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And its not like this is just tomb of soaks either.
    Nighthold was mostly the same
    ToV was S2M and Mass dispel
    EN was S2M.
    Has mythic+ become easier of the entire expansion? no, they've just lowered the requirement from +3 chest to 'just push the key 1 level for maximum loot'.
    See a single shadow priest at the MDI? nope

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spicymemer View Post
    Why do people in this thread not understand that my arguments arent for the top 100 or whatever.

    Lets say you're progressing through tomb, which fights do you go out of your way say 'regardless of our current raid composition, it would be beneficial to have a shadow priest'.

    Fallen Avatar is probably the only fight where this statement could be applied.

    Yeah shadow can provide some niche benefits during DI, Deso, Mistress, but 2 of those fights are a joke and the last one is all about the execution.
    I understand whats your point but I still slightly disagree some things.

    First of all, honest question. If shadow is fine in, lets say top 100, what makes it bad otherwise. Are differences in tactis so huge that Shadows are not allowed to play on it full potential, or are kills times too fast already so burst dps specs get better already.

    About this: "regardless of our current raid composition, it would be beneficial to have a shadow priest". How many specs actually fits into this? Pretty few imo. One is definately sub rogue because good dps and ability go soak everything pretty often. Warlock for healtstones and battle ress. 1 herois/bloodlust shaman OR mage OR hunter. And maybe 1 more instant battle ress DK or druid OR hunter. Only 4 things and some of them are given by tanks and healers also.

    Last note. SP is great on Harjatan too. AS and SW insanity generation from adds, ToF uptime, Sephuz procs and low movement. Thats 5 fights already. And on Goroth and Sisters Shadow is atleast middle of pack dps.

    About the MDI I totally agreed. No SP there. Lack if burst aoe and so on. But MDI was 935 ilvl for lv 17 dungeons. They were high speed runs, and on bigger keys and slower speed, shadow is getting slightly better already.

    After all: By far not the worst spec to play especially in raids, but not close to any FotM specs either.
    Elistan of the Nightfall - Human priest
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    WP M+ Score: 2430

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Spicymemer View Post
    No mythic guild has 20 members, theres always subs and if you're pushing for progress, shadow priest isnt near the top of that list.
    I think you're the one misunderstanding what people are saying. Top 100 or top 10000, progression is progression. The fights are arguably at the longest they'll ever be with your group during progression. That's where shadow priests shine. There are only two fights in Tomb of Sargeras that I would say are bad for shadow priest: Goroth and Maiden, strictly speaking as an average. Even at that, it's all level of skill.

    Same goes for M+, it's all reliant on the affixes and the level of the key. If you feel useless it's because the things you're fighting are dying way too quickly. Simple solution: do higher leveled keys. High level keys on Fortified are a shadow priest's wet dream depending on the other affixes. Once you're doing like, 16-17+ leveled keys, you'll see how useful you are when both the mobs and the bosses last long enough for you to do your thing.

    As far as the MDI goes, you can say the same for most specs. Hell, priest was really good that it even featured two of its three specs. You're not pushing keys at a competitive level so who cares what is at the MDI? Yes, Shadow Priest is not an ideal DPS spec to play during competitive M+ racing. Not entirely because of its DPS, but its lack of utility. Shadow doesn't have any immunities, it doesn't have burst AoE for pulling 3-4 groups at once, and it doesn't have any particularly good disruption. (Mind Bomb sure, but where are you getting with a 45 second CD interrupt?) But you're not racing anyone but the clock, and the clock isn't particularly competitive.

    In the end, you're not competitively pushing anything at all so what's the point in complaining? Your M+ score shouldn't matter because who the fuck wants to pug high level keys, and you're not gonna be sitting on bosses unless you're bad at the mechanics.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by colinberan View Post
    Same goes for M+, it's all reliant on the affixes and the level of the key. If you feel useless it's because the things you're fighting are dying way too quickly. Simple solution: do higher leveled keys. High level keys on Fortified are a shadow priest's wet dream depending on the other affixes. Once you're doing like, 16-17+ leveled keys, you'll see how useful you are when both the mobs and the bosses last long enough for you to do your thing.
    That's the problem though. It takes high keys with a specific suffix to make shadows viable (as in: similar performance as other dps specs), whereas you basically rely on others to carry you for anything else.

    So looking at the question in the title, the answer is pretty much: Unless they dramatically change how shadow works, rolling one with regard to M+ isn't worth it at all. If we're talking about play style or lore, it is an entirely different matter of course.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    shadow will suck again. why? i look back at 13 years of wow (praise the lord not 13 years as a spriest). i NOWHERE see either a top dps class, nor an aoe viable class. besides some really short moments, mostly of false game design (S2M 7.0 says hello) i see „fine spriest“ in history of wow. ofc, long ago spriest was a good mana battery. yeah. but, seriously: NO.

    or in short: you had never been and will never be a competitive class to rogues/locks/mages nor you will ever not suck in aoe. 13 year wow history tell you why.
    Shadow was highly completely during t7 content during WotLK. Then they were dogshit in t8 and t9 (because of zero scaling with secondary stats), but after Blizz allowed SP DoTs to scale with Haste right before the launch of ICC, Shadow was once again perfectly fine in ICC. Sure, they were never top Dps, but a good SP could easily destroy a mediocre "anything else" during those times.

    After the buff Shadow got like 1-2 months into Cata, it was the overall best caster in the game for the rest of the expansiuon. 1# Caster on any fight in t11 and t12. 1# Dps in the game on any fight with more than 1 target in t11 and t12. Still highly competitive in t13, even though we got outscaled by Fire Mages, Arms Warrs and Legendary Rogues, aswell as SV Hunters getting buffed through the roof for no apparent reason.

    Worst Dps spec throughout all of MoP, I'll give you that, but MoP is legendary for being our lowest point, the worst of the worst.

    As for WoD, we were strong during early HM, then weak after the other classes got major buffs, but then became highly competitive again, once we got the gear to play AS in BRF.

    Shadow AoE was really strong during WotLK, when Mind Sear was an "I win" button. It later got nerfed/buffed multiple times each expansion. It's true that Shadow has never been the best mass AoE spec in the game, but with a few exceptions (mostly at the start of each expansion), Shadow AoE has been perfectly viable ever since Mind Sear was first introduced at WotLK launch.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicymemer View Post
    Why do people in this thread not understand that my arguments arent for the top 100 or whatever.

    Lets say you're progressing through tomb, which fights do you go out of your way say 'regardless of our current raid composition, it would be beneficial to have a shadow priest'.

    Fallen Avatar is probably the only fight where this statement could be applied.

    Yeah shadow can provide some niche benefits during DI, Deso, Mistress, but 2 of those fights are a joke and the last one is all about the execution.

    No mythic guild has 20 members, theres always subs and if you're pushing for progress, shadow priest isnt near the top of that list.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And its not like this is just tomb of soaks either.
    Nighthold was mostly the same
    ToV was S2M and Mass dispel
    EN was S2M.
    Has mythic+ become easier of the entire expansion? no, they've just lowered the requirement from +3 chest to 'just push the key 1 level for maximum loot'.
    See a single shadow priest at the MDI? nope
    First of all. Once you get to guilds ranked lower than like top20, it doesn't matter. Raid comp is completely irrelevant. Once you go down in the guild rankings, the differences in player skill between the various ppl in the guild, becomes bigger and bigger. At top 100, the difference is enormous. For ANY "normal" Mythic raiding guild, anything outside of the absolutely cutting edge, player skill is so much more important than class or spec, that it's not even funny.

    If your guild wants to bring in some scrub Rogue, instead of good Shadow Priest, the issue is that the GM/RL is retarded, not that Shadow is weak.


    Not sure what you are on about when talking about NH either. Shadow was considered the best caster during NH progress. If you were still progressing at the point where Frost Mages and Aff Locks became kings, class balance no longer mattered. Again, once the hardcore cutting edge guilds are done progressing, raid comp is completely irrelevant for any of the regular raiding guilds. For the vast majority of guilds, a good player playing a weak class, will always be more desired than a weak player playing a strong class.


    Don't missunderstand me though. I'm well aware of our current issues, and hoping for a solid rework for BfA, but your post is just wrong on so many levels.
    Last edited by ThrashMetalFtw; 2017-11-21 at 04:33 PM.
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