Paranoia, Purists and Pragmatists

[Deleted]

It seems that there is a great deal of confusion as to which group of players wants what out of classic.

This has to be cleared up as it is causing a divide in the group of players who do have a love and have a vested interest in classic.

There's been numerous accusations that pragmatists who seek changes to vanilla are actually retail players who either want a retail experience with vanilla content or even are even undertaking an inside job to thwart classic from becoming a success.

Warning: This is not the case, This group who I like to call The "you asked for vanilla, now choke on it" crew, are actually masquerading as purists. They have a mild interest at vanilla at best as a side quest to their retail experience and a disdain for it at worst. Their rhetoric is easy to spot and is basically a copy and paste of this: "In all honesty, everyone clamoring for classic/vanilla WoW should just get the last patch of vanilla and be happy with it. People that have begged, asked, and demanded for it talk about how great it is/was. Suddenly they want "improvements." No. That's not the classic WoW that people kept saying is amazing and people will flock to."

These people have no interest in the success of classic. These are retail players of course who see classic becoming a success as a threat to the state of retail wow, They are correct but they fail to see the potential of classic being a superior product for both groups of players than vanilla or retail.

[Deleted]

There's been numerous accusations that pragmatists who seek changes to vanilla are actually retail players who either want a retail experience with vanilla content or even are even undertaking an inside job to thwart classic from becoming a success.

Yes

Warning: This is not the case, This group who I like to call The "you asked for vanilla, now choke on it" crew, are actually masquerading as purists.

No

People who want to see Classic fail are the ones asking for changes. Insane changes like class balance that would change the entire game in both PvE and PvP.
We are at a critical point where we will either get Vanilla or get a completely different game.
We need to be vocal or else we will get "Vanilla Remastered Super Turbo Remix"

I would agree to "some changes" but when do we stop after one QoL change? Where is the limit?
Because its so hard to find a limit, i just agree to no changes.

[Deleted]

Yes



No

People who want to see Classic fail are the ones asking for changes. Insane changes like class balance that would change the entire game in both PvE and PvP.
We are at a critical point where we will either get Vanilla or get a completely different game.

Unfortunately there is also the group that you belong to. This group does belong here and is part of the larger group who want classic to succeed. Unfortunately right now this group are hindering discussion because they are the ones who are confusing those who want changes as those who want to see classic fail. The only group who want to see classic fail are the group i identified and these are the group who are proving toxic to discussion. The real discussion is only between those who want classic to succeed changes or no changes

[Akka]

There's been numerous accusations that pragmatists who seek changes to vanilla are actually retail players who either want a retail experience with vanilla content or even are even undertaking an inside job to thwart classic from becoming a success.

Warning: This is not the case.

I've participated quite a bit in Vanilla "debates" these past years. And I see the exact same posters who were shitting on Vanilla back then, now spamming here about how Vanilla will be shit if Blizzard don't change something, while I see the exact same posters who fought for Vanilla now posting "keep it as it were".

So yeah, there is a number of "keep Vanilla as is, so they see how shitty it was", but these are just honest idiots who can't wrap their mind around the fact that people DO like Vanilla as it was (despite years of private servers overflowing with players) and they freely admit they aren't interested in playing Classic servers.
The trolls who try to pass for people interested in playing but with the game needing to become Legion 2.0, are for the most part, well, trolls.

[Slashnox]

Sure there are 2 groups of people, the purists who have been fighting for vanilla for quite some time now who want it completely unchanged. And the newer crowd who have joined in on the disucssion since they announced it and have decided they might play it and would like to see it improved.

And you can't convince one or the other that no changes are better or that changes are better. In the end we will just have to trust Blizzard. They will either deliver as promised a Classic WoW experience for those who've been asking for it, completelty unchanged. Or they will spoil it catering to the other side wanting to change it to make it a better experience for retail players.

[Deleted]

Unfortunately there is also the group that you belong to. This group does belong here and is part of the larger group who want classic to succeed.Unfortunately right now this group are hindering discussion because they are the ones who are confusing those who want changes as those who want to see classic fail. The only group who want to see classic fail are the group i identified.

But ofcourse i see them as people who want it to fail.

There are 2 groups of potential customers here.
-People who want to play Vanilla as it was.
-People who don't want to play Vanilla but they will think about it if it has QoL changes

Which group do you think its beter to cater to?

Not to speak of the fact that this project was made to preserve history (ive read this in an interview). It has historical value.
Nothing is historical about "Vanilla Remastered Turbo Remix"

[Deleted]

Sure there are 2 groups of people, the purists who have been fighting for vanilla for quite some time now who want it completely unchanged. And the newer crowd who have joined in on the disucssion since they announced it and have decided they might play it and would like to see it improved.

And you can't convince one or the other that no changes are better or that changes are better. In the end we will just have to trust Blizzard. They will either deliver as promised a Classic WoW experience for those who've been asking for it, completelty unchanged. Or they will spoil it catering to the other side wanting to change it to make it a better experience for retail players.

Retail players are not the ones asking for these changes as stated in my post. You are ignoring a large group who have been fighting for vanilla who want non game-breaking changes to vanilla to make classic the best experience possible. This is a recently emerging group as it only became a possibility since blizzcon, they are the same people who fought for vanilla.

[Deleted]

Retail players are not the ones asking for these changes as stated in my post. You are ignoring a large group who have been fighting for vanilla who want non game-breaking changes to vanilla to make classic the best experience possible. This is a recently emerging group as it only became a possibility since blizzcon, they are the same people who fought for vanilla.

Could you tell us what are this "non game-breaking changes" they want?

But all of this is a mess, if they start changing things, there is not stopping. There needs to be a limit. And who is the mastermind to dictate this"limit"?

[Deleted]

Sure there are 2 groups of people, the purists who have been fighting for vanilla for quite some time now who want it completely unchanged. And the newer crowd who have joined in on the disucssion since they announced it and have decided they might play it and would like to see it improved.

And you can't convince one or the other that no changes are better or that changes are better. In the end we will just have to trust Blizzard. They will either deliver as promised a Classic WoW experience for those who've been asking for it, completelty unchanged. Or they will spoil it catering to the other side wanting to change it to make it a better experience for retail players.

Retail players are not the ones asking for these changes as stated in my post, retail players simply want 100% vanilla as they want it to fail and they believe 100% vanilla won't be as successful as with changes. You are ignoring a large group who have been fighting for vanilla who want non game-breaking changes to vanilla to make classic the best experience possible. This is a recently emerging group as it only became a possibility since blizzcon, they are the same people who fought for vanilla.

[GennGreymane]

I would be okay with class fixes so some specs are not untouchable. But it’s what ever

[jstnw89]

Retail players are not the ones asking for these changes as stated in my post, retail players simply want 100% vanilla as they want it to fail and they believe 100% vanilla won't be as successful as with changes. You are ignoring a large group who have been fighting for vanilla who want non game-breaking changes to vanilla to make classic the best experience possible. This is a recently emerging group as it only became a possibility since blizzcon, they are the same people who fought for vanilla.

So the QOLists didn't fight for Vanilla because they didn't think it was possible and now that it's happening.. they're going to jump on the bandwagon and keep asking for changes?

[Deleted]

Yes



No

People who want to see Classic fail are the ones asking for changes. Insane changes like class balance that would change the entire game in both PvE and PvP.
We are at a critical point where we will either get Vanilla or get a completely different game.
We need to be vocal or else we will get "Vanilla Remastered Super Turbo Remix"

I would agree to "some changes" but when do we stop after one QoL change? Where is the limit?
Because its so hard to find a limit, i just agree to no changes.

Class balance would in no way "change the entire game" Vanilla was vanilla for 3 reasons, Community, difficulty and exploration. LFG and crossrealm killed the first, catering to casuals changed the second and streamlining questing killed the third.

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So the QOLists didn't fight for Vanilla because they didn't think it was possible and now that it's happening.. they're going to jump on the bandwagon and keep asking for changes?

The people who want changes DID fight for vanilla and now that changes to vanilla are a possibility are fighting for improved vanilla.

[jstnw89]

The people who want changes DID fight for vanilla and now that changes to vanilla are a possibility are fighting for improved vanilla.

Your writing kind of sucks.. so pardon me

[Swalload]

Class balance would in no way "change the entire game" Vanilla was vanilla for 3 reasons, Community, difficulty and exploration. LFG and crossrealm killed the first, catering to casuals changed the second and streamlining questing killed the third.

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The people who want changes DID fight for vanilla and now that changes to vanilla are a possibility are fighting for improved vanilla.

The community includes people talking about classes and sharing information. If you change the data of classes, you change the community. The community is also based around the activities in the game, PvP, raids, dungeons, etc. These things are done with compositions of classes, if you change the selection of classes, you change the game.

Ret paladins and arcane mages did not exist in vanilla, period. If you make them exist, you change the game, if you change the game, it's not what people asked for in the first place.

[pinelakias]

I am a retail player. And as one, I can say with confidence that me and guild members that will keep playing current progress have said "Let Blizzard decide, I don't really care" although I do believe that the players that are honestly asking for the vanilla, will enjoy it like it was then but with the bugs/crashes/glitches fixes. Anyway, as I said I'm not planning on playing again the vanilla game so I will say this. No matter what, I hope you are pleased with the end result and enjoy the game.

[Niffo]

People who want to see Classic fail are the ones asking for changes.

No mate, I want classic as much as you but I think there need to be some changes, obvious. It's a 12 year old game. Hardware, software has changed, therefore things like debuff limit has no place in current classic. Stop being so biased and accept that Vanilla wasn't great because it was harder.Most specs and classes are gonna be full with dust because right now we know what class will shine and what classes will be deserted. Vanilla was great because of the immense world, things to do and the RPG elements. The AoE loot where some people already get mad about weren't even possible back then. Most boss encounters were just mere DPS tests. I will play Vanilla, e.g. Why not make that Vanilla experience even better than it was back then? I don't see the problem. As long as they keep the core gameplay the same we got nothing to worry about ye?

[Florena]

Yes



No

People who want to see Classic fail are the ones asking for changes. Insane changes like class balance that would change the entire game in both PvE and PvP.
We are at a critical point where we will either get Vanilla or get a completely different game.
We need to be vocal or else we will get "Vanilla Remastered Super Turbo Remix"

I would agree to "some changes" but when do we stop after one QoL change? Where is the limit?
Because its so hard to find a limit, i just agree to no changes.

I would disagree with this. The ones that think classic will bomb don't want any changes because they don't believe in classic and think classic with changes would do BETTER than the pure experience. I've seen several people saying just that: saying they want classic with no changes so people see vanilla with all the warts included because they think very few people will actually play it.

People requesting changes I think are more people somewhat interested in classic but don't want to give up all the QoL stuff that's come out since or deal with the way certain classes were treated at endgame etc.

[Soulwind]

People who want a vanilla experience with upgrades are trolls who want Classic to fail and none of their arguments should be listened to, "purists" say.

People who want pure vanilla today without changes are trolls who want Classic to fail and none of their arguments should be listened to, "pragmatists" say.

We need to have conversations and study all feedback in order to provide the best experience we can with Classic, Blizzard says.

I hope when they start asking more specific questions you guys are more open to dialogue, because right now, you're justifying every fear and doubt that Blizzard had about spending money on the "legacy community".

[Xummy]

Vanilla was a game full of patches with changes to many thing
Saying that you want Vanilla without any changes goes against what Vanilla was
Below is a list of patches in Vanilla.

The ones in bold are class changes

1.1.0 · 1.1.1 · 1.1.2 – 1.2.0 · 1.2.1 · 1.2.2 · 1.2.3 · 1.2.4 – 1.3.0 · 1.3.1 · 1.3.2 – 1.4.0 · 1.4.1 · 1.4.2 – 1.5.0 · 1.5.1 – 1.6.0 · 1.6.1 – 1.7.0 · 1.7.1 – 1.8.0 · 1.8.1 · 1.8.2 · 1.8.3 · 1.8.4 – 1.9.0 · 1.9.1 · 1.9.2 · 1.9.3 · 1.9.4 – 1.10.0 · 1.10.1 · 1.10.2 – 1.11.0 · 1.11.1 · 1.11.2 – 1.12.0 · 1.12.1 · 1.12.2

[Deleted]

I would disagree with this. The ones that think classic will bomb don't want any changes because they don't believe in classic and think classic with changes would do BETTER than the pure experience. I've seen several people saying just that: saying they want classic with no changes so people see vanilla with all the warts included because they think very few people will actually play it.

People requesting changes I think are more people somewhat interested in classic but don't want to give up all the QoL stuff that's come out since or deal with the way certain classes were treated at endgame etc.

This person! This person gets it! Yessssssss

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People who want a vanilla experience with upgrades are trolls who want Classic to fail and none of their arguments should be listened to, "purists" say.

People who want pure vanilla today without changes are trolls who want Classic to fail and none of their arguments should be listened to, "pragmatists" say.

We need to have conversations and study all feedback in order to provide the best experience we can with Classic, Blizzard says.

Purists think that trolls are masquerading as pragmatists, they are wrong.
Pragmatists do not think that all purists are trolls, they think trolls are masquerading as purists. They are correct.

The trolls are retail focused players who believe that classic success will harm their retail experience.


The real discussion is between the purists and the pragmatists, the trolls are confusing matters and must be identified and asked to leave.

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I am a retail player. And as one, I can say with confidence that me and guild members that will keep playing current progress have said "Let Blizzard decide, I don't really care" although I do believe that the players that are honestly asking for the vanilla, will enjoy it like it was then but with the bugs/crashes/glitches fixes. Anyway, as I said I'm not planning on playing again the vanilla game so I will say this. No matter what, I hope you are pleased with the end result and enjoy the game.

I appreciate this and realise that not all retail players are against the success of classic. Choice is a good thing.