Worried about Rogue in T21

[Mamercus]

Over a 5 minute fight, fury warriors would do an extra 150 million damage or so compared to a sub rogue. Not likely it stays exactly like this, but that's funny.

[shaunika123]

Over a 5 minute fight, fury warriors would do an extra 150 million damage or so compared to a sub rogue. Not likely it stays exactly like this, but that's funny.

but at least we wont die :P

[Swalload]

Looking at these sims, all 3 specs seem to have dropped considerably. Every other class in the game has atleast one spec that performs better than ALL 3 of the rogue spec, with Fury doing around 35% more than outlaw and 25% more than our highest dps spec (sub). I assume there will be balance changes during heroic, but I can't say I'm not worried about the class in the next tier.

Those are just sims, the most inaccurate way of checking performance.

[RobertoCarlos]

every rogue buff this expac has just been number tuning on our damage aura. Our stats scale terribly so they just tune our damage by 3-6% at a time.

[Deleted]

Were simcraft profiles ever ment to accurately compare damage between classes?
I feel like people used to say they were more for comparing gear within the same spec than between classes or even specs.
Maybe thats changed over the years if that was the case?

[NtflxnChill]

Rogues are utter poop in T21, only tuning that's gonna happen is to bump outlaws dmg aura by couple % on hc weeks tuning, ohh and bring Fury down to 2.8M from the current 3M sim profile.

[shaunika123]

Those are just sims, the most inaccurate way of checking performance.

actually it's the second most accurate way behind checking logs :P unless you think feelcraft is a more accurate way.

[ymirsson]

Were simcraft profiles ever ment to accurately compare damage between classes?

No. But that never stopped noone.

[dcc626]

Those sims are pretty irrelevant considering we haven't gotten the balance patch for Antorus yet aka 7.3.5. Also, that list seems a little shady since its completely missing Enhance shamans

7.3.5 wont be the balance patch. they have stated that any numbers changes will come via hotfix during mythic week.

wont see 7.3.5 til early in the new year, likely february.

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Rogues are utter poop in T21, only tuning that's gonna happen is to bump outlaws dmg aura by couple % on hc weeks tuning, ohh and bring Fury down to 2.8M from the current 3M sim profile.

also, no soaking. so probably less rogues overall.

[Djanco]

i checked the actual log on those sims and i found they are using gloomblade, wearing insignia of ravenholdt and soul of the shadowblade and 2p t20 and 4p t21. i doubt any of that is accurate

[Varolyn]

i checked the actual log on those sims and i found they are using gloomblade, wearing insignia of ravenholdt and soul of the shadowblade and 2p t20 and 4p t21. i doubt any of that is accurate

Maybe some of the kinks are still being worked out, but the guys on the ravenholdt discord have gloomblade being the best talent on that tier. Only main difference is the leggos, as according to that sim, insignia and belt are simming the highest with 2 piece t20/ 4 piece t21.

[Deleted]

T21 Sims are INNACURATE right now because we don't had the balance hotfix (Ion said there will be one "shortly after Antorus release")

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"The last class balance was for 7.2.5 and since we take maybe 30 iLvls. The scaling of rogue is weird, so we have to wait until the new class balance next month to set the record straight."

[Shoeboots]

Even if nothing changed (which it will), the sims will be misleading when you account for the mechanics of any given fight. In fact, I'd wager that Assassination will outrank Sub on Antorus logs, just because the Sub rotation is much more difficult to execute perfectly, which is what these numbers reflect.

One great example of this is Afflication Warlocks. SimulationCraft has them as one of the worst specs in the game this tier. Warcraft Logs has them as the clear frontrunner of the entire game.

[Critical92]

Subs rotation is not harder to execute, but it relies on a good dfa hit inside the sod window with guaranteed crits when vanish is ready.
Assa rogue needs procs on top of procs to go real high.
On fights with heavy movement and soak shit like avatar for example, assa can outdps sub.
I say, in Antorus, Sub and Assa will be almost equal with Outlaw hanging behind.

[Djanco]

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Subs rotation is not harder to execute, but it relies on a good dfa hit inside the sod window with guaranteed crits when vanish is ready.
Assa rogue needs procs on top of procs to go real high.
On fights with heavy movement and soak shit like avatar for example, assa can outdps sub.
I say, in Antorus, Sub and Assa will be almost equal with Outlaw hanging behind.

i've seen a lot of rogues who can't do the dfa rotation. i know when i started playing it it took some practice to learn.
im pretty sure a while back they mentioned they wanted to remove poison bomb before antorus. we'll see if they actually do..
and i doubt blizzard will let the t20 set bonus to stay that good. i forsee nerfs.

[omeomorfismo]

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i've seen a lot of rogues who can't do the dfa rotation. i know when i started playing it it took some practice to learn.
im pretty sure a while back they mentioned they wanted to remove poison bomb before antorus. we'll see if they actually do..
and i doubt blizzard will let the t20 set bonus to stay that good. i forsee nerfs.

they never stated anything like this. they stated that maybe they will change the proc formula from"perfect" random to like one of the resto druid abilities (if im not mistaking class) where there is a "deck" of event and you "draw" from that deck every time there is the chance, then when that deck is empty repeat.
btw pb isnt anymore a "problem" until at least >98%.
you can have orange logs even with pb as 6° damage source with TB talent.

[shaunika123]

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i've seen a lot of rogues who can't do the dfa rotation. i know when i started playing it it took some practice to learn.
im pretty sure a while back they mentioned they wanted to remove poison bomb before antorus. we'll see if they actually do..
and i doubt blizzard will let the t20 set bonus to stay that good. i forsee nerfs.

but why do people that cant do the rotation properly matter? they wont balance around them(at least I hope not)


they said the same thing of assa and sub being equal in ToS too, the only fight where that was true is avatar on the first few weeks of progress, until people figured out that running vigor ring with sub actually alleviates its problems on that fight.

they're also not gonna touch poison bomb most likely

all they're going to do is toss us another few % dmg on our auras and that's it.

[Geckoo]

All i'm worried about is where to get the mythic skin for tier boots.

Edit to elaborate: i don't look at generic sims to know how my spec is doing. Specs can be better or worse on a fight to fight basis and many times utility wins over pure damage.

Raiding is about the team and we might not be the class with the highest DPS, but we certainly are one of the best ones when it comes to indirect utility. Including the ability to ignore some mechanics that usually force players to stop dealing damage, the ability to avoid damage that translates into more healing and mana aviable for other players or just the fact that we usually are great soaking stuff, allowing better use of raid resources such as allowing others to just keep up with their DPS.

[RobertoCarlos]

Raiding is about the team and we might not be the class with the highest DPS, but we certainly are one of the best ones when it comes to indirect utility. Including the ability to ignore some mechanics that usually force players to stop dealing damage, the ability to avoid damage that translates into more healing and mana aviable for other players or just the fact that we usually are great soaking stuff, allowing better use of raid resources such as allowing others to just keep up with their DPS.

A mage with prydaz can do this just as well. Give us damage, we are pure dps, we dont have a heal or tank spec to fall back on.

That said I don't buy into early sims at all so dont confuse me being worried about rogues dps, its too early to tell.

Im just going on last tier with sub nerfs and outlaw/assassin being garbage, and haste being about as useful as early sims we need a tuning bump no doubt

[Deleted]

Personally I'm more worried about 2p/4p being the top sim for us. I don't want to hunt high Ilvl ToS gear for the entirety of T21