Raid balance: worse since 20 Mythic static size

[Arcanines]

Did Control+F warlods/Wod and got 0 hits, what a fucking joke post.

WoD was the most balanced shit we've had in ages IMO, what th actuel are you crying about.

EN: IMO was fine, but for the hardercorer raiders indeed too easy.

ToV: Perfect for what it was

NH: Cry me a river, ''ap requirement'' I played my alt like 4 hours a week and I had 48 traits, whilst leveling feral, resto, guardian and balance so I could do raids.

ToS: Fuck ava, and fuck Kj but not numbers, just the soaks that got fixed.

[david0925]

"I think Blizzard can't balance 20man raids so they should just say screw it to all sorts of balancing and do flex mythic raids"

You don't burn down an entire forest just because you can't put out a small fire in it.

[Deleted]

I wish mythic raid was fixed 10 man and I wish they would make personal loot the one and only loot option.

-> no more split farm non-sense = no more need for artificial gear check bosses
-> smaller raid size, easier to balance, less class stacking

I know 10 man failed but that was because they tried to have 10 man and 25 man co-exist and equally difficult.

[Cracked]

The current problem is that you don't really need any one specific class or spec for raids performance. So you take those who either bring raw throughput, or raw utility (or both). Why would you have a monk in your raid if guardian is a better tank, any healer is a better healer and any melee dps is a better dps, while monk also has no gamebreaking utlity?

I have a feeling that Blizzard is trying to change this by having class specific buffs in BfA, so that you have to bring every single class into mythic. And I'm not opposed to that idea, the only thing is that when you need a shaman, you will likely get a resto shaman and dps shamans will still be fucked (but ultimately, they have to be, as we have 36 specs in the game and only 20 raid spots).

[Deleted]

I wish mythic raid was fixed 10 man and I wish they would make personal loot the one and only loot option.

-> no more split farm non-sense = no more need for artificial gear check bosses
-> smaller raid size, easier to balance, less class stacking

I know 10 man failed but that was because they tried to have 10 man and 25 man co-exist and equally difficult.

Only the top end wordl first race guilds to top 50 or so do that most guilds dont do it all and limiting loot options to total rng no control just cause top end guild do something shouldnt ruin loot for all other guilds, and if they have do it do it just for first week or 2 of raid but after not at all.

[Deleted]

Sound like someone who just wants 10 man back, give it a rest

i actually enjoyed 10man more than current model. I still like current model, i think its most balanced one. But 10 man just felt way more compact.

[Deleted]

2. Class stacking has never been this extreme.

Vanilla says hello.

[Gaidax]

Vanilla says hello.

OMG how dare you vanilla was perfection, clearly Legion is where this stacking ever happened, class stacking never seen in WoW evurrr!


Honestly, every expansion we have these people come out of woodwork and claim some BS claims out of blue and every time you have a bunch of bads rush in and nod in agreement. Nothing new here.

[Hotsforyou]

10 Man needs to come back. 20 man fixed is a failure IMO. I am cancelling my sub for the first time ever after Antorus is cleared. If they brought back 10M Mythic raiding, i would stay subbed. I just cant do it anymore.

[D3athsting]

10 Man needs to come back. 20 man fixed is a failure IMO. I am cancelling my sub for the first time ever after Antorus is cleared. If they brought back 10M Mythic raiding, i would stay subbed. I just cant do it anymore.

20man is shit when you have 14-15 ppl who have the gear/skill for mythic but you simply can't do M because of numbers and don't want to go into drama inducing merges
Not to mention technical issues that are 100% more frequent in 20 man, tank crashed -> wipe, healer dc'ed--> wipe, dps got lag spike and died etc...

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Did this dude really just say Class Stacking has never been this extreme? I don't understand why people need to make shit up in order to make a point. You can have this discussion with embarrassing yourself ya know?

- - - Updated - - -

10 Man needs to come back. 20 man fixed is a failure IMO. I am cancelling my sub for the first time ever after Antorus is cleared. If they brought back 10M Mythic raiding, i would stay subbed. I just cant do it anymore.

If you feel that way you should quit for sure. Adding 10 more players should do nothing to effect your interest in raiding and if you were only doing 10 man through old expansions you were essentially a casual. Not quite that bad, but it should be obvious that the game has always valued large group raiding.

[Beet]

Wait OP you claim Blizz wanted mythic so class diversity was brought in. But I'm pretty damn sure they said the opposite. I remember them saying they wanted a static raid size so they could assume you had one of every class when designing encounters. They even used Razuvious as an example and said encounters like him which require a Priest for Mind Control. So I don't see the complaining about needing certain classes. Specs sure, but not classes.

[Hotsforyou]

Did this dude really just say Class Stacking has never been this extreme? I don't understand why people need to make shit up in order to make a point. You can have this discussion with embarrassing yourself ya know?

- - - Updated - - -



If you feel that way you should quit for sure. Adding 10 more players should do nothing to effect your interest in raiding and if you were only doing 10 man through old expansions you were essentially a casual. Not quite that bad, but it should be obvious that the game has always valued large group raiding.

Except for when it didn't value large over small in MoP. 10M Heroic was just as hard as 25M Heroic. It was a better, more personal format.

[Deleted]

EN Mythic
1. Too easy : Elrethe, Xavius
2. All the rest was tuned well, they required decent amounts of coordination and good play.

ToV Mythic
1. Too easy : Odyn
2. All the rest was tuned well, Helya wasn't a very fun fight, but it was a step into the right direction in terms of balancing.

NH Mythic

1. Too easy : Trilliax, Tichondrius*, Botanist, Elisande*
2. All the rest was tuned well, not any problematic bosses.
* Tichondrius was too easy with the cheese strategy which resolved around rogues tanking the swarm
* Elisande was too easy when gear became better, it removed the hard portion of the fight, entirely.
* Gul'dan was tuned well, but the fight was just too long and not really enjoyable.

ToS Mythic

1. Too easy : Desolate host, Maiden*
2. All the rest was tuned well with the exception of both Avatar and KJ.
* Maiden's healing and dps requirements were too low for her position in the raid.
* Avatar, overtuned at first, too much emphasis on soaking, good tuning after first set of nerfs.
* KJ, overtuned at first, too much empahsis on soaking, good tuning after the first set of nerfs.


To me the majority of the concerns are when bosses resolve around very specific requirements, ie soaking. Tuning of bosses isn't always going to be perfect, especially when you have many classes that can nullify certain mechanics and take a lot of pressure off the dps and healers in general, something they should also consider when they design bosses.

- - - Updated - - -

Except for when it didn't value large over small in MoP. 10M Heroic was just as hard as 25M Heroic. It was a better, more personal format.

It wasn't. There were 2 hard bosses in mop 10HC that was Animus 10HC and Garrosh 10HC.

I mean we plowed through 10HC on our alt runs with significantly less gear than our 25hc mains.

[david0925]

I think Maiden would have been a LOT harder if solo soaking wasn't possible. The amount of coordination required would offset the low dps requirement for the fight, and hps requirement would be significantly higher to keep the party completely topped off before each hammer.

[Hotsforyou]

EN Mythic
1. Too easy : Elrethe, Xavius
2. All the rest was tuned well, they required decent amounts of coordination and good play.

ToV Mythic
1. Too easy : Odyn
2. All the rest was tuned well, Helya wasn't a very fun fight, but it was a step into the right direction in terms of balancing.

NH Mythic

1. Too easy : Trilliax, Tichondrius*, Botanist, Elisande*
2. All the rest was tuned well, not any problematic bosses.
* Tichondrius was too easy with the cheese strategy which resolved around rogues tanking the swarm
* Elisande was too easy when gear became better, it removed the hard portion of the fight, entirely.
* Gul'dan was tuned well, but the fight was just too long and not really enjoyable.

ToS Mythic

1. Too easy : Desolate host, Maiden*
2. All the rest was tuned well with the exception of both Avatar and KJ.
* Maiden's healing and dps requirements were too low for her position in the raid.
* Avatar, overtuned at first, too much emphasis on soaking, good tuning after first set of nerfs.
* KJ, overtuned at first, too much empahsis on soaking, good tuning after the first set of nerfs.


To me the majority of the concerns are when bosses resolve around very specific requirements, ie soaking. Tuning of bosses isn't always going to be perfect, especially when you have many classes that can nullify certain mechanics and take a lot of pressure off the dps and healers in general, something they should also consider when they design bosses.

- - - Updated - - -



It wasn't. There were 2 hard bosses in mop 10HC that was Animus 10HC and Garrosh 10HC.

I mean we plowed through 10HC on our alt runs with significantly less gear than our 25hc mains.

Because you already knew the fights. Not because "easier".

[Eon Drache]

NH Mythic

1. Too easy : Trilliax, Tichondrius*, Botanist, Elisande*
2. All the rest was tuned well, not any problematic bosses.
* Tichondrius was too easy with the cheese strategy which resolved around rogues tanking the swarm
* Elisande was too easy when gear became better, it removed the hard portion of the fight, entirely.
* Gul'dan was tuned well, but the fight was just too long and not really enjoyable.

I want to argue the Gul'dan part. The fight was undertuned from a melee pov. Usually fights are pretty bad for melee because it really didn't matter if you had them or not as everything a melee could do ranged did easier. But Gul'dan was just melee had nothing to do the entire fight other than not stand in shit that sometimes spawned.

[Saybel]

It wasn't. There were 2 hard bosses in mop 10HC that was Animus 10HC and Garrosh 10HC.

I mean we plowed through 10HC on our alt runs with significantly less gear than our 25hc mains.

Because you already knew what to do and it's possible to stack your best 25m raiders into a 10m raid that they've already progressed. 80% of progression is mechanics.

I'm pretty sure this exact subject was done to death in cata-mop

[D3athsting]

melee had nothing to do the entire fight other than not stand in shit that sometimes spawned.

This applies to aluriel with ranged having to deal with shitty mark of frost, trilliax with cakes, krosus with adds, elisande with orbs...nh has been really punishing for ranged

[Jastall]

I think Maiden would have been a LOT harder if solo soaking wasn't possible. The amount of coordination required would offset the low dps requirement for the fight, and hps requirement would be significantly higher to keep the party completely topped off before each hammer.

True, but even then the raid doesn't take too much damage in between hammers. So while it would certainly have made the fight harder, I feel a tighter DPS check would also have worked well. Also let's note that many guilds killed Maiden with a weakaura that made ph2 far easier.

Anyway, the OP obviously hasn't followed the raiding scene for very long if they think class stacking is anything new. The examples have been provided already. Plus it has nothing to do with 20 man and everything to do with the fight's mechanics; you would have had to class stack in 10 man too had there been too many soaks there, except the situation is even worse as you have far fewer DPS slots.