My Only Concern for BfA: Lack of class changes

[MagusHenosis]

Wish they had decided to not make sweeping changes after MoP instead of now. I actually liked pretty much any class I played back then and now its like something is just missing all the time. They went a little too hard on removing abilities across the board in the last couple of expansions. These days though? Please make sweeping changes on the off chance I don't hate some of your classes

Of course something is missing lol....how absurd.

What is missing is the depth, complexity, and challenge now.

You know why they are missing now???

Since Blizzard took them away yo, that’s why....

[Darktbs]

feral is in a perfect spot right now, not too complicated that it feels like a chore, but not too simple that it feels like you're playing BM hunter.

it's literally the perfect balance after a rework.

having to put up rip after you use tiger's fury isnt exactly rocket science.

I also don't think outlaw is in a need of a complete overhaul just some tweaks, RTB in theory is a much much more dynamic and fun mechanic than bandit's guile ever was. it's main problem is that the top end of the spec spikes way too high which results in the median underperforming. if they fixed good rolling streaks and smoothed out the effects of RTB it'd be a pretty good spec.


the two classes that are in a very dire need of a rework are havoc DH and BM hunter, both of which literally just spam 2-3 buttons without any strategic insight, planning, or thought.

I somewhat agree with you(the feral part i can't say, i don't play a druid yet)

I believe RTB needs someway that you can influence the results, the theme is a pirate, Pirates aren't know for playing fair or based in luck, they cheat, thats what the spec needs.

I wouldn't say Havoc needs a rework like BM, maybe one or two spells that interact with what we have.
Same with Demon Warlocks, the theme is cool and they are going in the right direction, but after a while it gets really repetitive and there isn't something interesting to expect.Maybe a spell that sacrifice all your pets to summon a Pitlord that gets stronger with every minion you summoned.


Bm and Aff need a serious rework.

Bm is not interesting to play, it doesn't have cool animations, it feels like you aren't doing anything, you don't have anything to look up to since the rotation doesn't change at any moment neither you have a special spell to press at any moment.

Aff is ok in damage, but gameplay is really boring, put dots and wait while using drain Soul, got shards and the buff, use your 3th dot and repeat.

[Coldfrostzero]

That's the majority of players. A majority of them never played Retribution back then. Retribution has been worse playing wise than it has since Wrath.

I've been playing Ret since BC, and while I miss the seal twisting (not the garbage WoD version), I would say Ret is in a good place. I do wish they would up our DPS slightly outside of Crusade so I don't drop from 2nd to 7th on the DPS and shoot back up again once its up, but I usually end every fight in 2nd or 3rd place and I am about ~10 ilvls lower than the rest of my raid due to switching back and forth between Protection and Ret (also about 5-7 traits behind everyone too).

[Eon Drache]

I've been playing Ret since BC, and while I miss the seal twisting (not the garbage WoD version), I would say Ret is in a good place. I do wish they would up our DPS slightly outside of Crusade so I don't drop from 2nd to 7th on the DPS and shoot back up again once its up, but I usually end every fight in 2nd or 3rd place and I am about ~10 ilvls lower than the rest of my raid due to switching back and forth between Protection and Ret (also about 5-7 traits behind everyone too).

Sounds more like the rest of your raid is really bad or you pad. But I'm honestly not talking about numbers. The numbers are easy to tweak if Blizzard wanted to. I'm talking the playstyle. The start of Legion Retribution felt more like a chore with no reward because of the rework and Blizzard's lack of knowledge on what to do. And a lot of specs felt that way after they were changed. The Haste given during Crusade makes the rotation feel great, but once Crusade is gone most felt like a snail with how often hitting a button changed. I know I don't like going from 130% haste to 20% haste immediately and having that affect the entire rotation.

[Micromadsen]

Didn't they specifically say there were no BIG changes coming? Which means there WILL be changes but not major overhauls like Survival/Outlaw.

It will be the usual consolidating changes going from one expansion to another like Pre-Legion expansions. Like incorporating Artifact abilities and Passives into the baseline spec. Throwing away stuff that didn't work and putting in a few new ideas. Changing up some talents, switching them around, changing their effects. It's really just the usual stuff that happened in older expansions.

Hell like it's been discussed in another thread reintroducing stuff like Single Minded Fury and 2h Frost can also be considered changes on the smaller side as it doesn't necessarily change a whole lot.


Edit: I'd also like to point out that there were probably very minimal changes in the Blizzcon demo. We are still a long time away from a release so there's plenty of time for changes to be made.

[RigidCannibal]

There are definitely a few classes that need to be fixed, but overall I'm relieved because the class changes are always a huge downside to expansions for me.

[McFuu]

Do you see how that cuts both ways, though?

I like Blood DK and Vengeance DH in Legion.

If they made big changes to either, they might well end up making them un-fun/rubbish.

So if they changed them for the sake of changing them, I'd be pretty pissed-off.

I have a question for everyone though:

What specs, exactly, do YOU think need serious re-works/go-overs for BfA?

Personally I would say it seems to be:

All three specs of Hunter, but SV and MM most of all
Outlaw Rogue
Ret Pally

Anything else?

I play Outlaw rogue and I really see no problems with it. The issues around RtB were largely alleviated with the change a couple of months back. Biggest issue the class has is the too much energy or not enough energy nature.
SV and MM Hunter are a bit boring though, Ret Pally too (don't have a max level Pally, but from what I've seen there are 3 buttons to press with no rotation to them).

[Jaigar]

They've said in the past one of the biggest reasons why people leave the game is because of massive changes to their main character's class. I suspect they are at least happy internally with how each spec is and the goal going forward is to just tweak them slightly, maybe bake a few good abilities in we get from the expansion-specific progression like artifact traits.

However, that's bad news for people if this latest iteration of your class is your least favorite. For me I always liked hunters and rogues, but their design in Legion is total garbage imo. Guess that means I'm done with them for now?

I wonder where they pulled this info from for why people quit.

I can guess this is pulled from the mini-survey they offer up when you cancel your subscription. There's not many options in there, and I fear people generally unhappy with class balance get lumped into this category.

[jivagon]

What specs, exactly, do YOU think need serious re-works/go-overs for BfA?

Just fix every class they changed on Legion, those being: Warrior Fury, Outlaw Rogue, hunter Survival, Ret Paladins, Havoc Demon Hunter.

And please please, try to rework some specs to work as ranged DPS, Legion raids in med-high end showed how melee DPS are useless if you have no Execute or some retarded CD that can make you soak every mechanic

[Hashcrypt]

I didn't mean to imply that a huge rework is on order. But not adding at least a new core spell or another row of talents to add a wrinkle to now classes work seems very uninspired to me.

Im still keeping an open mind because obviously we're only at the very beginning of the development process.

[Ineluki]

I wish they had decided that before the cluster fuck that was class changes in Legion.

[dcc626]

BfA so far just looks like DLC bigger patch not expansion, lack of class changes is the biggest mistake as currently legion has one of the most boring designs together with classic and wod

lack of class redisigns =/= no class changes.

[docterfreeze]

For the last 3 years the class design team has lost their minds. I felt the same disappointment as most posters here when they said there would be no big changes and that they liked the number of rotational abilities most classes had.

WoW is the only MMO I've played that has sweeping class changes every expansion, and from every perspective it's retarded. You risk losing the current players for a slight chance that a new player will come along and like the new design.

As someone who only PvP's, MoP was the best iteration of class design. Each class had 25+ unique buttons, with most having multiple ways to use them. Complexity abound. The skill gap between a 2200 and rank one player was crystal clear. Players who mastered their class could take on multiple players at a time and win.

Aside from removing abilities, removing playstyles is also really fucking dumb. I'm looking at you, SMF warrior, 2h fDK, glad warriors, and ranged survival hunters.

[MasterHamster]

If they don't unfuck Demonology I'm gonna be so pissed. Not only is the redesign godawful and clunky, it was done purely to say "Oh sorry for taking Metamorphosis but the game TOTALLY needed another leather dps with a focus-ish resource class!"

[Schmilblick]

I have exactly the same problem, class changes are the most important thing in every expack, BFA lacking this is a HUGH letdown.

[Coldfrostzero]

Sounds more like the rest of your raid is really bad or you pad. But I'm honestly not talking about numbers. The numbers are easy to tweak if Blizzard wanted to. I'm talking the playstyle. The start of Legion Retribution felt more like a chore with no reward because of the rework and Blizzard's lack of knowledge on what to do. And a lot of specs felt that way after they were changed. The Haste given during Crusade makes the rotation feel great, but once Crusade is gone most felt like a snail with how often hitting a button changed. I know I don't like going from 130% haste to 20% haste immediately and having that affect the entire rotation.

With the current tier bonus, the spec feels a lot more fluid than it did in Nighthold and Emerald Nightmare. I have two Ret paladins, both blood elves and having Arcane Torrent also helps smooth out the rotation when it is up. Having Soul of the Highlord and Divine Purpose makes for some fun game play. It feels bad to hit Crusader Strike, that is about my biggest problem with the spec right now. Even with Fires of Justice, it feels like a waste of a global. If they brought back seals and seal twisting (seal of blood into seal of command) I would be fine with that, even if the RNG of it makes a lot of people upset. I'm not worried about my DPS being the top, as I am no longer in a mythic guild that is pushing progression, as long as it isn't a negative to bring a ret paladin along like so many people thought in BC (which I proved many top guilds on my server at the time wrong) I'm fine with that.

[Eon Drache]

With the current tier bonus, the spec feels a lot more fluid than it did in Nighthold and Emerald Nightmare. I have two Ret paladins, both blood elves and having Arcane Torrent also helps smooth out the rotation when it is up. Having Soul of the Highlord and Divine Purpose makes for some fun game play. It feels bad to hit Crusader Strike, that is about my biggest problem with the spec right now. Even with Fires of Justice, it feels like a waste of a global. If they brought back seals and seal twisting (seal of blood into seal of command) I would be fine with that, even if the RNG of it makes a lot of people upset. I'm not worried about my DPS being the top, as I am no longer in a mythic guild that is pushing progression, as long as it isn't a negative to bring a ret paladin along like so many people thought in BC (which I proved many top guilds on my server at the time wrong) I'm fine with that.

The rotation feels great right now, yeah. I love it. I have 4 piece. I have SotH. It's pretty fun. But what happens when we switch to T21 that basically gives a crappy version of TFoJ. Which, atm, doesn't even work with SotH? I don't want to turn this into a discussion about Retribution because the Paladin forum has threads for that but when you have to rely on a temporary tier set bonus and legendary for your gameplay to feel complete that is a problem to me. Without those the spec feels broken and maybe they should consider making some things that feel baseline... baseline...

[bewbew]

And they've said they'll look at incorporating some of those spells and effects in to the toolkits for classes where it makes sense. Ya'll are just so insanely quick to jump the gun.

Adding "some" isn't enough. Add EVERYTHING.

The way had it in the Blizzcon demo was awful. A few artifact abilities were made into talents (meaning you had to sacrifice one of your talents you have right now in order to get em), and on top of it, it was the most basic, non-trait modified version of the Artifact abilities.

That means Wake of Ashes not giving Holy Power, for example.

[FurryRedVixen]

I wonder if in BFA will BMs lose Hati o.o

[Eurhetemec]

I play Outlaw rogue and I really see no problems with it. The issues around RtB were largely alleviated with the change a couple of months back. Biggest issue the class has is the too much energy or not enough energy nature.

Fair enough, I haven't played it for a while.

Havoc DH's design is a fucking mess.

Oh yeah, good call, I'd forgotten that. It's effective but feels like shit despite conceptually cool abilities, at least to me.

IMO the ones saying this or that spec was great at this or that time usually played a spec/class that did very well during that time in terms of healing/dps/tanking. (Ie topping the meters) Wich i Think is ridiculous. Ofc there is Always the exceptions but more often then not when i speak to people why they dont like their class anymore it pretty mcuh Always comes down to "im not at the top anymore"

Yeah, that seems to 95% of it. You ask "What were you playing back then?" and you will almost certainly get an answer that is a class that was top 1-2 tanking or healing specs for most content or in the top 6-8 DPS specs.

I mean, people talk all this big-dick talk about how Blizzard are "lazy designers" and "most specs are dull" or "most specs need re-working", and you ask "Okay, but which specs really need a full-on re-work?" and suddenly people STFU or say "I can't be bothered to list them!" and the only ones they ever seem to actually name in Legion are the Hunter specs, Outlaw, Ret, and Havoc DH (which I had forgotten). That's 6 specs out of 36. That's a lot less than needed real re-works than any other expansion!

I do admit a lot of DPS specs could do with a little more "spice", but I'm unconvinced that needs to be new/returning rotational abilities in most cases. Utility abilities and sharpening up existing rotations and/or looking at how the class resources work could fix most of that.