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  1. #301
    The Lightbringer Perkunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Then what I wrote does not apply to you. Other, more rabid, commenters have already confirmed having played mage/rogue/warrior back then:
    Or, perhaps they know what the game was too? Look, you don't have to like what it was. I'm not sitting here saying that some of the changes weren't great that happened in BC. I actually think Burning Crusade was my favorite version of the game, but that's not what Classic is. Making an "authentic experience" and then changing things drastically because the masses don't understand what that means is a terrible idea. You'd have less of an argument from people if you simply advocated for a "Remastered WoW" server and not attempt to lobby something that you obviously don't like or want into something you do. This isn't what the Nost team or community wanted. This isn't what we signed the petition for. This isn't what tons of old members of the WoW community pleaded for. They asked for Pre-BC and that's what Ion has assured is coming.
    Stains on the carpet and stains on the memory
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    When we both of us knew how the end always is...

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Yes, I understand that's how it was. I just don't find it reason enough to keep it.
    That design fundamentally determined the nature of the game. If we change that we're looking for WoW 2, not WoW Classic.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Reading comprehension being a challenge for you does not entitle you to creatively re-interpret my comments. I wrote what I wrote. You are the one who fails to understand those comments written in plain English and takes offence when called out on strawmanning.
    Yeah, I dunno. Me hard read. However, ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Because I want to play the original world with the original content, before they ruined it with Cataclysm, "level flow" railroading and shitty quest chains.
    ...looks a lot like ... strawmanning to me ... ah!?
    There is nothing to interpret. You want caverns of time with the original world, no WoW classic. And you work hard to bring the modern WoW concepts into the game. It's as simple as that.

  4. #304
    The Lightbringer Perkunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post


    Yes, I understand that's how it was. I just don't find it reason enough to keep it.
    So now we've moved from changing some balance to changing entire design goals. How is that in any way authentic?
    Stains on the carpet and stains on the memory
    Songs about happiness murmured in dreams
    When we both of us knew how the end always is...

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    I defer to you on Guild Wars. I only ever played it to discover the world and steered clear of PvP. Then I abandoned it once all the things it had over WoW had begun popping up in Azeroth.
    I spent a depressing amount of hours on that game T.T.

    Best PvP of any MMO I've ever played though. That's the sort of thing I doubt I'll ever see again. GW2 didn't quite capture the magic of its forebearer. Better PvE though.

    Anyway I'll leave you to it, you're fighting 15 fronts at once. Good luck!

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Perkunas View Post
    So now we've moved from changing some balance to changing entire design goals. How is that in any way authentic?
    I doubt that people advocating for "balancing classes" (usually so they could raid in their favorite spec and the rest of the game can be damned), QoL or whatever changes, are interested in authenticity. If you read comments, many treat the idea of Classic WoW as sort of a caverns of time dungeon not an independent from the current WoW game.

  7. #307
    The thread title is false and misleading, a community manager simply spoke of his opinion. Wheres the optometrist at?

  8. #308
    The Lightbringer Flarelaine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perkunas View Post
    Or, perhaps they know what the game was too? Look, you don't have to like what it was. I'm not sitting here saying that some of the changes weren't great that happened in BC. I actually think Burning Crusade was my favorite version of the game, but that's not what Classic is. Making an "authentic experience" and then changing things drastically because the masses don't understand what that means is a terrible idea. You'd have less of an argument from people if you simply advocated for a "Remastered WoW" server and not attempt to lobby something that you obviously don't like or want into something you do. This isn't what the Nost team or community wanted. This isn't what we signed the petition for. This isn't what tons of old members of the WoW community pleaded for. They asked for Pre-BC and that's what Ion has assured is coming.
    Oh, I perfectly liked what it was back then. But what I liked about it (and some of that only came into focus when they changed them) was the slow pace. Quest chains sending you back and forth in the world, not railroading you through zones conveniently placed next to each other. Dungeons that you cleared pack by pack, not "gogogo" chainpulling everything. Attunements, even. Drawing admiring whispers when my gnome mage rode a Nightsaber. None of my "authentic Vanilla experience" is tied to actual class choices or class mechanics. And therefore I find it hard to understand why people stick to an admittedly broken balance. I could understand wanting to make sure your preferred spec works - but not wanting to make sure others don't.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Oh, I perfectly liked what it was back then. But what I liked about it (and some of that only came into focus when they changed them) was the slow pace. Quest chains sending you back and forth in the world, not railroading you through zones conveniently placed next to each other. Dungeons that you cleared pack by pack, not "gogogo" chainpulling everything. Attunements, even. Drawing admiring whispers when my gnome mage rode a Nightsaber. None of my "authentic Vanilla experience" is tied to actual class choices or class mechanics. And therefore I find it hard to understand why people stick to an admittedly broken balance. I could understand wanting to make sure your preferred spec works - but not wanting to make sure others don't.
    For me, it's a desire to experience the raids exactly as they were back then, so as to have an accurate comparison with what people went through back then. That's why I'd prefer the patches to roll out, just as they did back then.

  10. #310
    The Lightbringer Flarelaine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Because I want to play the original world with the original content, before they ruined it with Cataclysm, "level flow" railroading and shitty quest chains.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiedzemir View Post
    ...looks a lot like ... strawmanning to me ... ah!?
    There is nothing to interpret. You want caverns of time with the original world, no WoW classic. And you work hard to bring the modern WoW concepts into the game. It's as simple as that.
    Oh, I get it now. You don't actually know what strawmanning means! Well, let me explain. It is when I state something, then you claim I stated something else and go on to answer that arbitrarily made-up claim.

    Such as what you did right above.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Perkunas View Post
    So now we've moved from changing some balance to changing entire design goals. How is that in any way authentic?
    I have already outlined how authenticity lies elsewhere for me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RapBreon View Post
    I spent a depressing amount of hours on that game T.T.

    Best PvP of any MMO I've ever played though. That's the sort of thing I doubt I'll ever see again. GW2 didn't quite capture the magic of its forebearer. Better PvE though.

    Anyway I'll leave you to it, you're fighting 15 fronts at once. Good luck!
    Thank you!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    For me, it's a desire to experience the raids exactly as they were back then, so as to have an accurate comparison with what people went through back then. That's why I'd prefer the patches to roll out, just as they did back then.
    Now on that we are in agreement. I'm definitely against starting with the 1.12 bundle and believe we should progress through the raids with a staggered release.

    Admittedly, I have few memories of actual Vanilla raiding - my guild was too small for 40 so we only did the 20-man raids - but what I still remember is exhilarating joy on a first kill. And that still takes challenge, so I'm not advocating for trivialised raid encounters, just a slight leveling of the playing field. I don't even want equal dps output for hybrids, just one where player input can make the difference.

  11. #311
    The Lightbringer Perkunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Oh, I perfectly liked what it was back then. But what I liked about it (and some of that only came into focus when they changed them) was the slow pace. Quest chains sending you back and forth in the world, not railroading you through zones conveniently placed next to each other. Dungeons that you cleared pack by pack, not "gogogo" chainpulling everything. Attunements, even. Drawing admiring whispers when my gnome mage rode a Nightsaber. None of my "authentic Vanilla experience" is tied to actual class choices or class mechanics. And therefore I find it hard to understand why people stick to an admittedly broken balance. I could understand wanting to make sure your preferred spec works - but not wanting to make sure others don't.
    Because specs worked. Raiding was not the way in which you judged a spec. Raiding was just a niche activity for the hardcore. Balance druids worked fine in 5-mans/PVP/farming/leveling. Shadow worked amazing in PVP and leveling etc. This is a non-problem.
    Stains on the carpet and stains on the memory
    Songs about happiness murmured in dreams
    When we both of us knew how the end always is...

  12. #312
    Those who are worried about Blizzard maybe trying to balance classes and other things - you can stop worrying about it.

    From what Blizzard said about their new plan to do classic servers, it looks like they are going to try doing them by using the unmodified old server in a virtualized environment that makes the server think it is talking to the old back-end / old clients. Everything they said points to that - them for a long time not knowing how to deliver classic and then suddenly knowing (someone got the idea to do it the way above), them hiring a new team (that is only possible when the new team doesn't have to dig into the old code and can only interact with it to the spec, a dead giveaway), etc. With things done that way they just won't be able to change much, even if they wanted to.

    Whether this will make classic a failure or a success is a different matter, but they almost certainly won't balance anything.

    A couple of blue posts cited in the beginning of the thread mulling about maybe balancing something are from CMs. CMs know nothing, they are completely ignorable.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosotti View Post
    Ion Hazzikostas said "vanilla is vanilla". Ion Hazzikostas >>>>>>>> Random community manager.
    Whoever doubted that vanilla is vanilla? We didn't need that confirmation. They aren't doing vanilla though. And I doubt Ion is even invloved with WoW Classic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosotti View Post
    I think the level of paranoia is ridiculous. Blizzard doesn't want to create a new WoW with a huge team that spends all day trying to balance it
    That's why they will release it already balanced.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2017 - that's two-zero-one-seven, as in the 21st Century - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Whoever doubted that vanilla is vanilla? We didn't need that confirmation. They aren't doing vanilla though. And I doubt Ion is even invloved with WoW Classic.
    He's not involved with Classic, but be sure that he's involved with more important people than the random CM. Be sure that he knows better.

    And who doubted that vanilla is vanilla? All the fucking paranoid idiots on these forum and Blizzard forum and the whole universe in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    That's why they will release it already balanced.
    Yeah, keep dreaming of paladin tanks and other wet dreams

    They will probably fix some retarded bugs and MAYBE they will try to do something about having many people at once in the same place at the start. Anyone hoping for major changes is delusional.

  15. #315
    Stood in the Fire Melrael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    For me, it's a desire to experience the raids exactly as they were back then, so as to have an accurate comparison with what people went through back then. That's why I'd prefer the patches to roll out, just as they did back then.
    You will not have that experience no matter how you try, things were different in many ways back then. There were less sources of information, no wowheads or the like, not really the kind of buss guides you have now. Simply knowing some of the things alters the landscape enough to make it vastly different experience to how it was when people like myself did the content years ago.

    Trying to capture it is just a dream that will not really come to pass. People have tried it, there are just too many tools outside of the game itself that alter things. I do not know a single genuine vanilla player who enjoyed the state of class balance over how things progressed over time. The class balance wasn't exactly the main appeal of vanilla. It was having less convenience, making it so that if you wanted to do things you couldn't just be utterly lazy. You also needed to make friends and contacts, you had to be social to accomplish things. Also leveling offering a form of challenge and tutorial when playing new classes was enjoyable for many.

    Things that people I played with and know, missed the social aspects, the feeling of the world without flying mounts and quick access to places. If you wanted to get somewhere fast, you'd think on the route you wanted to take etc.

    Balancing the classes and making the really weak and undesired classes more at par and more enjoyable to play wouldn't change anything but the PVP heroes dreams of just running about smashing things simply cause they happened to level the right class to 60. Those kind of people aren't exactly looking for an authentic experience, they are simply looking to exploit things that they've learned from people that played before, to have fun at expense of others. Most of them who played at the time, would've been the ones getting their asses handed to them.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Melrael View Post
    Balancing the classes and making the really weak and undesired classes more at par and more enjoyable to play wouldn't change ...
    It looks like they won't be able to do it because of the way they are implementing classic. (See #313.)

  17. #317
    Scarab Lord OneWay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perkunas View Post
    Because you don't seem to understand the massive changes that would spawn from class tinkering. It's like dominoes.
    I think you mistake me. I do understand, I am rather curious into what will actually turn. That's my experience with Blizzard. I'm not really sure if it's really about "revert to vanilla-patch revision number xx.x.x..x.x and be done with it" and some vanilla people do think or want exactly that. I surely don't want that.
    "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man loses his nerves"

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Perkunas View Post
    The best thing is the people here who said Legacy is going to fail and then said if they change anything it's not Legacy will still proclaim the death of legacy when the Frankenstein servers die. Basically they've already claimed checkmate when we're playing fucking Clue.
    that jumbled clusterfuck of words made far less sense than you think it did. try again, and proofread this time.

  19. #319
    Thank god they will balance specs. We might lose a dozen trolls that only want vanilla for mage 1 shot crap and other full retard vanilla balance.
    Sitting on 3 broken specs because the rest are garbage = highlight of vanilla for some severely stupid people.
    “Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Whoever doubted that vanilla is vanilla? We didn't need that confirmation. They aren't doing vanilla though. And I doubt Ion is even invloved with WoW Classic.

    That's why they will release it already balanced.
    I can only say how elated I am that Ion is not involved in Classic. He is one of the primary reasons WoW is so screwed now.

    They will not balance classes for Classic. It will truly be a vanilla experience flaws and all.

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