Vry'Kul Tiras - Human Allied Race

[Luckx]

Vrykuls were enemies of Alliance and Horde during WOTLK, during WOTLK they also was treating Alliance and Horde in very racistic way. That was strange how some of them end up neutrals in Legion instead of being villians they was for whole WOTLK.

[Magnagarde]

Your argument makes no sense, you lived that happening in game when the worgen eace was implemented, and same could be true of this Vry'kul tiras

... he wants to change a whole normally-looking human race into a half-giant human race into an instant. Suggesting this or not realizing how flawed the idea sounds is what doesn't make sense. There is no lore that supports the possibility of an entire human kingdom becoming half-giants overnight.

Worgen were well established in lore a long time before Cataclysm and Gilneas. How would you - through lore - explain how a whole nation of humans who looked normal throughout the RTS games and throughout WoW all of a sudden became half-giants? You have Kul Tiras marines even in Legion, in Azsuna, who look like normal humans

[Khaza-R]

They already created a new race of giant humans native to Kul Tiras. They are called the Drust and evidently hinted Kul Tirans are mixed with them. Although the original Drust population was killed by humans, it appears they survived in the shadowlands. They are Druidic and shamanistic culture and it’s inferred the witches in Drustvar use their death magic.

I think they would make a much better compliment as an Allied race as they could be both druids and shaman

[Futhark]

In no situation has a race which has descended from another race, bred with it's predecessor and created a hybrid

Explain Rexxar.

Also, there's no evidence Vrykul gave birth directly to modern Humans (the only baby we see is only described as small and weak) and it would be silly to assume they did.

- - - Updated - - -

survived in the shadowlands

This is an oxymoron. When mortals die their souls go to the shadowlands. If they find a Val'kyr/Spirit Healer there, they can be returned to life.

Drust are obviously an extinct Vrykul tribe, and as cool as they are, having Vrykul as an Allied Race would be way better and makes way more sense.

[zlygork]

... he wants to change a whole normally-looking human race into a half-giant human race into an instant. Suggesting this or not realizing how flawed the idea sounds is what doesn't make sense. There is no lore that supports the possibility of an entire human kingdom becoming half-giants overnight.

Worgen were well established in lore a long time before Cataclysm and Gilneas. How would you - through lore - explain how a whole nation of humans who looked normal throughout the RTS games and throughout WoW all of a sudden became half-giants? You have Kul Tiras marines even in Legion, in Azsuna, who look like normal humans

I mean, they were already changed into being significantly bigger than your average human, adding an explanation ( a more "logical" one anyway) would hardly be a bigger stretch of lore.

[Khaza-R]

This is an oxymoron. When mortals die their souls go to the shadowlands. If they find a Val'kyr/Spirit Healer there, they can be returned to life.

Drust are obviously an extinct Vrykul tribe, and as cool as they are, having Vrykul as an Allied Race would be way better and makes way more sense.

Obviously they have a special relationship with it via their death magic. That’s why the story of Drustvar involves them trying to return from the shadowlands.

I also doubt they were a Vykrul tribe but likely something between humans and Vykrul. I’m sure we’ll know more once more of Kul Tiras is revealed in beta

[Fyersing]

Early tribes did not refer to them as "mutant Vrykul."

King Ymiron motions for silence.
King Ymiron yells: Vrykul, your king implores you to listen!
King Ymiron yells: The gods have abandoned us!
The crowd gasps in horror.
King Ymiron yells: Even now, in our darkest hour, they mock us!
King Ymiron yells: Where are the titans in our time of greatest need? Our women birth abberations - disfigured runts unable to even stand on their own! Weak and ugly... Useless...
King Ymiron yells: Ymiron has toiled. Long have I sat upon my throne and thought hard of our plight. There is only one answer... one reason...
King Ymiron yells: For who but the titans themselves could bestow such a curse? What could have such power?
King Ymiron yells: And the answer is nothing... For it is the titans that have cursed us!
The crowd clamours.
King Ymiron yells: On this day all Vrykul will shed their old beliefs! We denounce our old gods! All Vrykul will pledge their allegiance to Ymiron! Ymiron will protect our noble race!
The crowd cheers.
King Ymiron yells: And now my first decree upon the Vrykul! All malformed infants born of Vrykul mother and father are to be destroyed upon birth! Our blood must remain pure always! Those found in violation of Ymiron's decree will be taken to Gjalerbron for execution!
Ancient Citizen of Nifflevar says: Show the abberations no mercy, Ymiron!
Ancient Citizen of Nifflevar says: Show the abberations no mercy, Ymiron!
Ancient Citizen of Nifflevar says: All hail our glorious king, Ymiron!
Ancient Citizen of Nifflevar says: All hail our glorious king, Ymiron!

I've emphasized the relevant quips, but otherwise, you're just playing a game of semantic gymnastics. They were physiologically distinct from the norm, at the time, what word you use to describe that state is entirely irrelevant.

Vrykul parents gave birth to a Human - When they did, they fled because they did not want to be killed. Because it was so very obviously NOT a Vrykul, it couldn't be hidden. They fled, and others who gave birth to the same fled with them - This community of Vrykul continued to pass down Human children. Those Vrykul eventually died off, leaving only Humans. That is the origin of Humans on Azeroth.

This isn't ever articulated as fact, either in-game or in the Warcraft Chronicle.

These malformed babies were certainly weaker and more fragile, but it's never been outright stated anywhere that "these are humans". Instead, it's always explained that these are the predecessors of modern humanity -- which, as you say later in your post, is a huge difference.

Edit: It is worth noting that the final turn-in for the quest implies that the questgiver believes that the infant we see (which you can see in one of the images I linked) is a human -- meaning there was no evolution. The problem is without there being evolution, almost all of the Northrend Campaign doesn't really make sense.

In the first volume of the Warcraft Chronicle, it's mentioned that many Vrykul who gave birth of small or malformed children journeyed to Tirisfal, left their children there with the Vrykul clans that lived there, and then returned to Northrend. If the curse wasn't just a series of random mutations, and instead just turned Vrykul directly into Humans, there wouldn't be Vrykul in Northrend thousands of years after this -- they'd all be human. This is the line that follows the paragraph that describes the aftermath of the "infant genocide" by King Ymiron:

"In the ages that followed, the afflicted children and their offspring would continue degenerating into mortal beings called humans."

This isn't a case of "There were several hundreds of thousands of minor changes over the course of millennia." There were Vrykul, who were not abnormal in any noticable way, shape, or form - they gave birth to a Human. There's no in between. This is literally what is revealed to us in Northrend through the quest which links Humans to Vrykul.

I would posit that you need to reassess your understanding of the word "literally", because it doesn't "literally" say anything of the sort -- least of all in any of the quests found in the Northrend Campaign. The questline you're referring to, for example, is comprised of these three quests:

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=11333/i...rld-of-spirits
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=11343/the-echo-of-ymiron
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=11344/anguish-of-nifflevar

The first quest doesn't actually provide any details about anything, rather it simply posits there is some sort of connection between Human and Vrykul.
This is the entirety of the encounter for the second quest.
This is the first part of the encounter for the third quest.
This is the second part of the encounter for the third quest.

As you can see, the only thing it "literally" says is that some Vrykul were born malformed (weak, fragile). What you infer and what actually happened are likely to be two very different things, in this case.

And if it were magic, it's more likely a curse - Meaning they likely could ONLY bear Human children. Further suggesting that Vrykul with this phenomena could not have a hybrid child.

If it is the Curse of Flesh, then we know from at least four other races how it works.

Which only FURTHER suggests that you can't have a half-Vrykul, half-Human. In no situation has a race which has descended from another race, bred with it's predecessor and created a hybrid - Because if one descended from the other, the genes WOULD be either dominant or recessive towards one another, and other genes would progress as most useful to survival - one would eventually dominate the other while the other fades to nonexistance.

If you'll go back and look at what I wrote, for a moment ignoring the original post, you'll notice that I didn't posit the word "hybrid" into the discussion at all. Instead, I suggested that it's fairly common for species that are genetically similar enough to procreate but geographically separated enough to have bottlenecked evolution (in the form of isolated mutation/evolution) to form a genetic continuum.

The fact that we're talking about two groups who a part of the same evolutionary clade doesn't really matter. If you coupled a German Shepherd with an Arctic Wolf, you're correct that the resultant offspring isn't a "hybrid", but it's equally untrue to say it's "a German Shepherd" or "an Arctic Wolf". Instead, the infant pup would be considered a part of the a continuum that connects the two established types (Dog, Wolf) -- the same is entirely possible and, really, quite likely with Vrykul and Humans.

[Magnagarde]

I mean, they were already changed into being significantly bigger than your average human, adding an explanation ( a more "logical" one anyway) would hardly be a bigger stretch of lore.

They added some and in sporadic cases too, but the thread implies that all the inhabitants of Kul Tiras should be half-giants, which is absurd really.

I am presenting the suggestion that instead, the inhabitants of Kul Tiras are actually between Vrykul and Human in the evolutionary chain

Yeah, Blizzard have gone in the lore direction that approves of the existence of "bigger" humans in Kul Tiras, but OP talks about wanting to see the whole nation be some type of robust half-giant nation. This would mean that they've been like that all along. Some "monster-hunters" here and there are a lot different than a whole kingdom of them, with absolutely no mention or indication of any such people existing in the past.

[Urti]

Correct. He is in fact a 1/4 orc, 1/4 draenei and 1/2 human, humanoid creature.

He's actually 1/8 Howitzer on his father's brother's cousin's side.

Family reunions are a blast.

[Futhark]

They added some and in sporadic cases too, but the thread implies that all the inhabitants of Kul Tiras should be half-giants, which is absurd really.

Point taken.

Having a subset of the population as Half-Vrykul would explain why there are still regular sized Tirasians in the screenshots and why Jaina never forced Snuu Snuu on Arthas.

If Blizzard went that route, they'd lose the marketing power of "Allied Race: Kul Tiras" to call them something else. I guess if be fine with that.

[ArkantosChampion]

Damn, Human + tauren = Vrykul, it will be insane

[Splenda]

I'd rather play as a full on legit Vrykul, but I love variety and I'm all for it.

[Kastore Arcannet]

Does it matter more or less vrykul's blood Kul'Turas strudies have? They as more common subtype of humans are vrykuls descendants. And it is logically to said that some of them are more lile vrykuls and another not.

The main point of this duscussion is that community will have "playable vrykuls".

And the next interesting question is - what "full" races can the Alliance have in the future.

[WhiteEagle888]

Yes. Half-vrykul an Half-Ogre additions all the way.

[Ulthane]

At the OP

Love you for this post. I really want to play a vrykul paladin

[Kithelle]

Well, in them olden times, humans were chosen as partners because they had the biggest dicks in comparison to other primates... Gorillas don't got bigger junk than humans, they're smaller, perhaps it's the same with vrykul? Who knows?

How would you know, been researching that humans have the bigger tools?

But on a more serious note, we aren't comparing Humans to apes...we're comparing Humans to giants...Humans began as a mutation from Vrykul...Humans are basically mini Vrykul...I don't know if you noticed the size difference...lets just say I don't see a male Vrykul using two fingers to beat his business like it owed him money. If you get what I'm saying...

I'm not against Vrykul, I just feel this specific way of getting them is rather silly.

[vertigo12]

I rather go on the analogy that Human as a race is a devolutional mutatation of a former more supreme lineage of Vrykuls.

[Techno-Druid]

Blizzard has explicitly stated Med'an is not canon.

This is untrue, they simply said that Med'an is not the new Guardian.

Certain fiction exists outside the World of Warcraft that we love, but is it necessarily what we would consider canon? So Med'an as Guardian, isn't considered canon in Warcraft lore, which is why in the last five years you haven't seen a reference to him. Um, so, that doesn't mean that there can't be a story for Med'an, it's just not like it was laid out in the comics.

OT: I wouldn't mind Tirasian broad humans or monster hunters or whatever they're called, but I would prefer vrykul. They were a major part of both the Northrend and Broken Isles campaign and they're a pretty popular race.

With Sylvanas attempting to enslave Eyir in Stormheim and the very fact that the prophecy which foretells Sigryn's ascension mentions humans, the Alliance might have some favoritism with the God-Queen. Even with vrykul being somewhat xenophobic (but then again, so are all elf races and trolls) with a dislike for humans, I could see them entering the Alliance for protection, especially with the Highmountain tauren and Nightborne joining the Horde.

[Worgster]

I say we find some lore way of giving horde Kul'tiras humans and we'll take vrykul, deal?

[Garfurion]

I say we find some lore way of giving horde Kul'tiras humans and we'll take vrykul, deal?

Horde gets Vulpera when Alliance gets Kul'Tirans