Beta Key Giveaway Week 3: Winners have been selected!

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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    I just want demo to be repositioned into a master of harnessing the energies of the Twisting Nether. If Gul'dan could develop demonic features, why can't a warlock? So did Kil'jaeden.

    It doesn't need to be a metamorphosis like demonhunter's. It can also just be a visual as our energy system increases and we gain empowerments with demonic attunements.

    I think they can do a lot with the concept of shadowflame and demonic empowerments where we summon an aspect of a demon that empowers our spell in one way or another.
    Honestly feels like locks are on the cusp of a retcon after DH's were introduced into the game since so much of what we were was wrapped up in that fantasy.

    We're just in such an awkward place because of all that. There's so much push pull between us wanting to actually get and be all the things that people messing with fel and shadow magics are while trying to strongly differentiate from demon hunters or spriests.
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2017-11-25 at 08:18 PM.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  2. #82
    Especially with the shadow revamp I'm pretty sure they're going to push us out of peering into the void magics and find some nebulous explanation for our use of shadow magics.

    It's an identity crisis because so much of a warlock was tied to this dread Legion that hung back in the background, and now that it's been simplified and dealt with they'll have to find a way to expand demon and fel lore beyond Sargera's Legion. And it's a shame because I still feel even at the end of this xpac the concept of the fel has been very poorly explained and Sargeras is being rather conveniently shooed away for some later reappearance in some xpac.

    Even if Legion's demo was a disaster, I'm really going to miss my Thal'kiel. My floaty skull/head was one of the most unique artifacts and interactions with the concept of the power hungry summoner, and he's just going to disappear (other classes will suffer as well, it will be crappy for a death knight to go back to general swords that are not runeblades, so a warrior is using the same sword a death knight is or if a runeblade is introduced, a warrior or rogue will also wield it).
    Last edited by Lucrece; 2017-11-25 at 08:21 PM.

  3. #83
    I disliked Demo in Legion because it just didn't feel powerful. Say what you will about Meta, but turning into a massive demon hurling huge fireballs at people just felt great.

    I think Blizzard needs to just take Gul'Dan's kit and give it to us. Why can't we have Bonds of Fel, Liquid Hellfire, or Fel Efflux? We also need to be able to control some better demons. Controlling a Pit Lord at or near max level would be a nice start.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    I just want demo to be repositioned into a master of harnessing the energies of the Twisting Nether. If Gul'dan could develop demonic features, why can't a warlock? So did Kil'jaeden.

    It doesn't need to be a metamorphosis like demonhunter's. It can also just be a visual as our energy system increases and we gain empowerments with demonic attunements.

    I think they can do a lot with the concept of shadowflame and demonic empowerments where we summon an aspect of a demon that empowers our spell in one way or another.
    I like your idea. It is the only way demo should work. Mastering the power that demons gives us, not we give them power. No pet only summon a few for cc or increasing our/team dmg. More an offensive support with good sustain dmg.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    It had "clunk" on a level that far surpassed the other specs, and again was the epitome of "hard to learn, easy to master" which is the opposite of how you want a spec designed.

    Imo dots snapshotting at the time of application is more intuitive than not, considering that's basically how every other spell in the game works. When I cast a CB and clip the end of a buff the CB doesn't suddenly lose the buff mid air, it snapshots at the time of cast. If all other spells do that, its frankly more weird that dots are the only ones that don't.

    Frankly they removed the majority of the bigger issues by removing snapshots in wod. That made the more annoying things go away like hog weaving, or not fucking up your corruption with ToC. The spec was still hella confusing for new players though since it had so many moving parts while becoming even easier to master.

    I'd take wod demo over legion demo any day, but it was still a poorly designed spec.
    The fact that dotstrength needed an addon because at times pressing more buttons (refreshing dots) would be counterproductive to dps is just bad game/UI design. HoG weaving was more an issue with people/newbies that didn't know you could stack the dot 2 times, makeing the 2 HoG dots deal 3x dmg instead of 2. I liked that ToC refreshed corruption for nonDB spec, so you could stay in meta lobbing Soulfires and didn't need to go out of meta to refresh Corruption. In the end though Corruption was only applied for more fury, not for the DoT dmg.

    I think in the end, with WoD version and no DoT snapshotting, only WoC/HoG really would need looking at. The 2 stacks thing raises questions about when to use HoG or WoC(meta). I did like doing Kromrok M and dealing 70% dmg to hands + being top dmg in my raid team + making sure we downed that boss as we had hands issues .

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiradyn View Post
    I disliked Demo in Legion because it just didn't feel powerful. Say what you will about Meta, but turning into a massive demon hurling huge fireballs at people just felt great.

    I think Blizzard needs to just take Gul'Dan's kit and give it to us. Why can't we have Bonds of Fel, Liquid Hellfire, or Fel Efflux? We also need to be able to control some better demons. Controlling a Pit Lord at or near max level would be a nice start.
    I think remaking demo to more align with like heroic gul'dan would be badass! we get more pets (inquisitor caster pet!), replace imps with eyes and a CD that summons a nathrezim and change up abilities with the fel efflux and liquid hellfire for aoes, that sounds nice.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudodraco View Post
    I think remaking demo to more align with like heroic gul'dan would be badass! we get more pets (inquisitor caster pet!), replace imps with eyes and a CD that summons a nathrezim and change up abilities with the fel efflux and liquid hellfire for aoes, that sounds nice.
    This would be awesome! Summon eyes that shoot beams at everything and everyone within a certain radius (used for AOE and trash mobs). Summon more badass demons to fight for us. Fel bonds for CC that works kind of like Frost Ring for mages. All great ideas. Summoning and controlling a Pit Lord is a bit too over the top though.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalem View Post
    This would be awesome! Summon eyes that shoot beams at everything and everyone within a certain radius (used for AOE and trash mobs). Summon more badass demons to fight for us. Fel bonds for CC that works kind of like Frost Ring for mages. All great ideas. Summoning and controlling a Pit Lord is a bit too over the top though.
    I didn't say anything about a pit lord. but a jailer, inquisitor and beefed up fel guard would be awesome. and nathrezim cooldown seems within reason (old metamorphosis we looked nathrezim-ish)

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinuvial View Post
    The fact that dotstrength needed an addon because at times pressing more buttons (refreshing dots) would be counterproductive to dps is just bad game/UI design.
    That's a really odd way to put it because to this day refreshing dots / "pressing more buttons" is counter productive to dps. You only want to refresh dots to maintain them, your goal has never been to maximize button presses.

    The reason the addon existed was to let people know that if they overwrote their current dots that it would be a dps gain or loss due to there being ridiculously powerful procs in mop and people being too lazy to figure out that a 10 stack of BBOY was stronger than probably anything else they had going on at the moment and that they should probably let those 10 stack buffed dots run their course before they refresh.

    The addon was completely unnecessary, it was just for beginners or the lazy.

    HoG weaving was more an issue with people/newbies that didn't know you could stack the dot 2 times, makeing the 2 HoG dots deal 3x dmg instead of 2.
    Hog weaving was doing the 2 stack while timing weaving in and out of meta to buff the dots before they landed. Hog weaving died when they removed snapshots, the 2 stack thing still existed and wasn't at all the issue.

    I liked that ToC refreshed corruption for nonDB spec, so you could stay in meta lobbing Soulfires and didn't need to go out of meta to refresh Corruption. In the end though Corruption was only applied for more fury, not for the DoT dmg.
    Back when snapshots existed refreshing corruption would mean refreshing your snapshot, and to min-max you absolutely wanted a full powered corruption on the target. The spec was riddled with really tiny dps increases to min-max that were a pain in the ass and almost went against how you'd want to intuitively play the spec.

    You're talking about wod when the spec was super dumbed down thanks to the removal of snapshots, I'm talking about mop when it was a total shit show due to snapshots. Hence "Frankly they removed the majority of the bigger issues by removing snapshots in wod".
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2017-11-27 at 11:55 PM.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    - snip -
    This has always been the problem, we've always clashed with spriest in terms of play style/ fantasy to a degree, and on top of that we have demon hunters who seem to have usurped us as masters of fel magic. In Legion we always defer to them in matters of fel, and we're just there to drop gateways lol....

    I would like to see demo being the master of demonic magic, combining elements of summoning/ empowerment and shadowflame (purple fire!) lol.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    You're talking about wod when the spec was super dumbed down thanks to the removal of snapshots, I'm talking about mop when it was a total shit show due to snapshots. Hence "Frankly they removed the majority of the bigger issues by removing snapshots in wod".
    I know this isn't exactly a popular oppinion, but i really did like snapshotting because it enabled us to squeeze more out of our trinkets than other classes. The issue ofc was trinkets like Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen and Black Blood of Y'shaarj which make it absolutely broken and limited design space.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleific View Post
    I know this isn't exactly a popular oppinion, but i really did like snapshotting because it enabled us to squeeze more out of our trinkets than other classes. The issue ofc was trinkets like Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen and Black Blood of Y'shaarj which make it absolutely broken and limited design space.
    I dunno that its unpopular, I know my peers tend to miss snapshots. For demonology the spec was just very poorly designed for it but affliction begs for it.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  12. #92
    I prefer snapshots stay gone. I don't want to see trinkets being more dominant than they already are to performance. I feel the contribution of equipment slots should be normalized, and trinkets should not be beating out weapon upgrades or tier sets in contribution.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I dunno that its unpopular, I know my peers tend to miss snapshots. For demonology the spec was just very poorly designed for it but affliction begs for it.
    yeah being able to roll a doom for almost 2 minutes with lust/ berserking/ engineering tinker/ 10 stacks of BBoY/ Potion/ herbalism was really strong. Aff could use some kind of SS mechanic which can happen with the current iteration of UA.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    That's a really odd way to put it because to this day refreshing dots / "pressing more buttons" is counter productive to dps. You only want to refresh dots to maintain them, your goal has never been to maximize button presses.

    The reason the addon existed was to let people know that if they overwrote their current dots that it would be a dps gain or loss due to there being ridiculously powerful procs in mop and people being too lazy to figure out that a 10 stack of BBOY was stronger than probably anything else they had going on at the moment and that they should probably let those 10 stack buffed dots run their course before they refresh.

    The addon was completely unnecessary, it was just for beginners or the lazy.

    Hog weaving was doing the 2 stack while timing weaving in and out of meta to buff the dots before they landed. Hog weaving died when they removed snapshots, the 2 stack thing still existed and wasn't at all the issue.

    Back when snapshots existed refreshing corruption would mean refreshing your snapshot, and to min-max you absolutely wanted a full powered corruption on the target. The spec was riddled with really tiny dps increases to min-max that were a pain in the ass and almost went against how you'd want to intuitively play the spec.

    You're talking about wod when the spec was super dumbed down thanks to the removal of snapshots, I'm talking about mop when it was a total shit show due to snapshots. Hence "Frankly they removed the majority of the bigger issues by removing snapshots in wod".
    There are plenty of situations where you would nowadays refresh dot's and previously didn't because of snapshot.

    I did forget the MoP snapshotting of Corruption/HoG weaving with Meta. That was weird indeed

  15. #95
    Well i'd just make Empowerement instant, and have charges so you can't have 100% uptime. There is nothing exciting in it currently, only punishment if you're not able to cast it at the moment. Also this way it'd create some depth to when do you use the ability, lining up with some bigger pet overlaps. I'd also like to see some randomness in the summoned demons. Not in their damage but in their visual instead of all imps and dogs.

  16. #96
    I mean Ion pretty much said in a previous Q&A what they want for demo; fewer but bigger demons.

    How I'd do that: 2-3 big demon summons (Fel Lords, Jailers, Inquisitors) each serving a specific niche, two charges shared between all three spells, requiring 4 or even 5 soul shards. Recharge time being very long but reduced by multiple mechanics. Add additional big demons as talents (e.g. a Nathrezim). Possibly consider a Pit Lord with a Surrender to Madness gameplay; you need to keep feeding it soul shards until at some point it breaks your control, fixates on you, kills you and despawns. Bonus points if it calls you a "trifling gnome" if you are a gnome!

    If we want something visual about empowering warlocks with the power of demons, we have an archetypal warlock spell available to us for that already; Grimoire of Sacrifice. Give it shapeshift effect and you get that fantasy instantly without having to devote a spec to it.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrowful Gondola View Post
    - snip -
    I agree warlocks should be the masters of fel, we even look at our class hall compared to theirs. Ours is full of tomes and Grimoires, and gives warlocks a more scholarly vibe than DH. But in the game itself it really isn't represented, we defer to them on everything. It could have been our time to shine, per se, or we could have co-operated with them in some regard. But the only time we really see locks do anything is when we make a gateway in Broken shore scenario 2.0.

    very disappointing.

    RE: demonic magic: We also banish demons. So that's hardly unique to them.

    And yes, fel is an unstable magic type, we see ours represented in masochistic class mechanics (burning rush/ life tap) and they seem completely unaffected by it.

    I'd also this masochistic nature of warlocks is just a different form of sacrifice, whereas theirs is noble ours is greed, the end result should be similar.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudodraco View Post
    I didn't say anything about a pit lord. but a jailer, inquisitor and beefed up fel guard would be awesome. and nathrezim cooldown seems within reason (old metamorphosis we looked nathrezim-ish)
    Hey sorry about that! I think I combined two different statements by you and another person into one statement for me. My bad! And I agree with you about jailer, inquisitor, etc.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalem View Post
    Hey sorry about that! I think I combined two different statements by you and another person into one statement for me. My bad! And I agree with you about jailer, inquisitor, etc.
    No worries. That would really help with the master of demons fantasy the class is supposed to have!

  20. #100
    Demo locks should have a capability to summon a small group by itself.

    I propose that each demo lock can choose a tank, 2 dps and 1 support and all 4 should be permanently out at once. Cooldowns like DG/Infernal should still be there, but Demo locks should still be able to do cooldown demons like Darkglare, etc.

    Auras/buffs or benefits are triggered depending on the mix of demons that you have (like what you get in Future Flight or Marvel Ultimate Alliance games when you group heroes with each other).

    So basically a demo lock can have a Felguard/VW as main taunt/tank, Imp/Dreadstalkers/Felhunter/Succy as 2 dps and some support demon that provide passive auras to buff demons (where DE should be dumped into, and another one that heals demons, etc). And a demo lock player's keys should include each non-main demon's active skill like Seduction, Cleanse, Spell Lock and his personal spells reduced by half because all these demons out mean overpowered tools. His focus is mostly on controlling multiple demons at once and his ST damage rotation, while strong, is limited - to make room for multi-tasking. The lock is also focused on defensive cooldowns, CC and single target rotation - which includes pet skills.

    And all cooldown demons should be really powerful as they are temporary. Darkglare, Greater Succubus, Pit Lord, DG/Infernal should all be relegated as cooldowns.

    A demo lock in this scenario should be able to summon 4 + 1 powerful cooldown + 1 DG/Infernal + GoServ all at once under chained cooldowns, and minimum of 4 all the time.

    Wild Imps should just be passive, where it triggers when a Doom ticks, or a HOG successfully lands. They should also chill on the imps, and they should appear infrequently.

    You want to command an army as a playstyle, then this is a good start. You're basically walking around having 4 fiends out all the time. You can still control the main demon under a pet bar (felguard, vw) but all the other demons should have their active spells part of your OWN keyboard toolkit as you will be controlling them.

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