[SPECULATION] Queen Azshara of Zin'Azshara, the first ever mutated Zandalari Troll?

[Kithelle]

I never thought we could take this even further, but here we are.

Yeah...two pages in and I feel like my brain is rotting.

[vertigo12]

There’s nothing listed about any of the major night elf lore figures with regards to age afaik. We have Illidan and Malfurion clearly being born in a flashback in game. The Chronicle lists the rise of night elf civilization as occuring ~15,000 BDP. They were tutored by Cenarius and the other wild gods, and the highborne came later. Judging from this, she was probably born sometime between 15,000 and 10,000 years ago. She isn’t a dark troll, she isn’t a Zandalari. Once a species evolves into a new species it is not referred to by its former name. Night Elves were dark trolls at one time but once they evolved Nelves=/=Dark Trolls.

You can’t make up your own lore out of thin air when the actual universe’s lore contradicts everything you’re claiming. That is your issue. You have a problem seeing the reality of things: namely that your argument doesn’t hold water.

You aren’t a professional investigator and law has nothing to do with video games unless you are claiming someone’s lore and intellectual property as your own.

You said it yourself. When it comes to most Night Elven major figure there are limited annals,biography or novels dedicated to them yet alone the character in discussion which is Azshara. It's not impossible that fiction/fantasy writers will write one in the future or WoW will release literature specifically discussing her in one of their web page or perhaps a short clip.

It's a lie and it's being a hypocrite that denouncing who you are and you can never disprove the fact of who you were before. If you solely rely on Chronicles as the only basis or reference you would get vague answers for the details are incomplete and lacking substantial details.


Who said I was rewriting the lore and considering it THE LORE? I would stick to the idea I have in mind that my OP is purely speculative, no it's heavily speculative and analytical in nature. Perhaps you're the only one claiming such and perhaps along with those who disagrees with me. In due time everybody will see.

I may not be a professional investigator but they aren't the only human beings allowed to perform investigative report or analysis and I know for a fact you would agree you don't have to be licensed to have liberty to do so. The same thing how first aid can be performed by a knowledgeable and competent civilian can do such procedure on occasions which require it. If you are capable and willing as well as you are responsible for whatever actions you will be doing backed up by confidence, sufficient skills, knowledge and the right attitude, there shouldn't be any reason not to exercise your capability.

The only time you should be refraining to step up at the request of the occasion is if you are unsure of yourself, but for me I know what I am talking about and I'll do it. It's not my job to convince you and let you entertain the possibilities of my speculation.What remains definitely rest upon you. It's also quite obvious that i put a "speculation tag" as part of the title of my OP as it's given under such circumstance different views may rise up and oppose your considered canon. A glass canon I would say were it can easily be shattered and be easily replaced; once replaced forever disposed.

[Marcellus1986]

You said it yourself. When it comes to most Night Elven major figure there are limited annals,biography or novels dedicated to them yet alone the character in discussion which is Azshara. It's not impossible that fiction/fantasy writers will write one in the future or WoW will release literature specifically discussing her in one of their web page or perhaps a short clip.

It's a lie and it's being a hypocrite that denouncing who you are and you can never disprove the fact of who you were before. If you solely rely on Chronicles as the only basis or reference you would get vague answers for the details are incomplete and lacking substantial details.


Who said I was rewriting the lore and considered it THE Lore? I would stick to the idea I have in mind that my OP is purely speculative, no it's heavily speculative and analytical in nature.
I may not be a professional investigator but they aren't the only human beings allowed to perform investigative report or analysis and I know for a fact you would agree you don't have to be licensed or the liberty to do so. The same thing how first aid can be performed by a knowledgeable and competent civilian can do such procedure on occassions which require it. If you are capable and willing as well as you are responsible for whatever actions you will be doing,backed up by confidence,suficient skills and knowledge and the right attitude, there shouldn't be a reason not to exercise your capability.

The only time you should be refraining to step up at the request of the occassion is you are unsure of yourself, but for me I know what I am talking about and I'll do it. It's not my job to convince you and let you entertain the possibilities of my speculation.It definitely rest upon you. And it's quite obvious that i put a speculation tag as part of the title of my OP as it's given under such circumstance different views may rise up and oppose your considered canon. A glass canon I would say were it can easily be shattered and be easily replaced, once replaced forever disposed.

TL;DR

Chronicle is canon lore, your inane ramblings are mental illness.

[vertigo12]

Oh, don't have the time nor the patience to read everything? Let me paraphrase and summarize everything for you.I'm feeling generous today.

I wrote what I have written because I can and I am able to. Just an addition, I believe nobody was assigned to be a lore police or of similar title such that whoever disagrees with the canon you are referring to.Also, someone who doesn't strictly or rigidly follow the canon can never be labeled as suspect or convict.

It's already 2018 so the world is flat kind of POV is definitely outdated. Earth wouldn't be a better place if radical thinkers just kept silent.

Tl:dr You were not prepared. Better be ready and be capable of finishing whatever you unexpectedly started being served at you.

Just a friendly suggestion. I suggest you take up seminars which offer how to improve your personality and patience. Do also take how to improve creative thinking. It would definitely help you a lot in improving your character. Irl that is not just your wow toon.

[Marcellus1986]

Oh, don't have the time nor the patience to read everything? Let me paraphrase and summarize everything for you.I'm feeling generous today.

I wrote what I have written because I can and I am able to. Just and addition, I believe nobody was assigned to be a lore police or something and who ever disagree with the canon and when someone who doesn't strictly or rigidly follow the canon is a suspect or convict.

It's already 2018 so the world is flat kind of POV is definitely outdated. Earth wouldn't be a better place if radical thinkers just kept silent.

Tl:dr You were not prepared. Better be ready and be capable of finishing whatever or unexpected is being served at you.

Just a friendly suggestion. I suggest you take up seminars which offer how to improve your personality and patience. Do also take how to improve creative thinking. It would definitely help you a lot in improving your character. Irl that is not just your wow toon.

The problem is you have been repeatedly given source after source from the Chronicle and WoWpedia that tell you that what you are hypothesizing is fundamentally flawed, and you still keep rambling on about your “theory”. You’ve been proven wrong time and again but you still are trying to peddle what amounts to a Warcraft conspiracy theory, concocting equally inane “evidence” to work along side it.

Moreover you are trying to paint yourself as some kind of misunderstood genius being bullied or talked down to, when all anyone has been telling is that you are wrong and the lore linked to you proves you are wrong. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The lore is consistently not in your favor.

You are wrong. End of story. Writing your horribly thought out diatribes to try and counter the overwhelming evidence facing you doesn’t make your already idiotic stance look any better.

Just give it up.

[vertigo12]

Yeah...two pages in and I feel like my brain is rotting.

Seems like you need surgery and brain replacement. Having hard time keeping up or those brain cells not capable enough of processing everything?Info overload perhaps? Einstein's preserved brain would definitely be a major upgrade.

[xskarma]

Enough with the bickering and personal attacks. Discuss the topic not eachother.

[Kithelle]

Seems like you need surgery and brain replacement. Having hard time keeping up or those brain cells not capable enough of processing everything?Info overload perhaps? Einstein's preserved brain would definitely be a major upgrade.

Nope, not at all...because your theory was debunked on the the first page yet here you are 11 pages later going on like a toddler sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling LALALALALALALA and ignoring everyone that has already disproved your theory.

Azshara wasn't a Troll...she came to power after the rise of the Night Elves.

[Caprilibra]

So will we find out whether she was the first troll to become an elf?

Perhaps, or maybe Blizzard will simply not cover it. Wouldn’t surprise me.

Perhaps one of the first generation of Dak Troll who started the wave of DT to NE.

[Caprilibra]

Nope, not at all...

Azshara wasn't a Troll...she came to power after the rise of the Night Elves.

I believe there is no question that she indeed came to power after the rise of NE. Now that you mentioned it didn't the NE ascension to power as NE the moment they they complete changed from Dark Trolls to NE?

[vertigo12]

Just to make the topic really clear: Why would you say, vertigo12, that Queen Azshara is or was a Zandalari Troll when Nigh Elves did came from Dark Elves?

Good keen observation my friend. You see , there is nothing wrong with this perception because all troll are united as an empire and was the title Zul/ian Empire. or Empire of Zul. I believe even though dark trolls are reclusive and isolationist, they still are welcomed within the regularly held gathering of all Troll sub-group in Zandalar.

[Destinas]

Just to make the topic really clear: Why would you say, vertigo12, that Queen Azshara is or was a Zandalari Troll when Nigh Elves did came from Dark Elves?

Good keen observation my friend. You see , there is nothing wrong with this perception because all troll are united as an empire and title Zul Empire. I believe even though dark trolls are reclusive and isolationist, they still are welcomed within the regularly held gathering of all Troll sub-group in Zandalar.

The Empire of Zul was the name of the united trolls 16,000 years before the Dark Portal first opened, during the Aqir-Troll war, before the Night Elf Empire.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Aqir_and_T..._Empire_of_Zul

After the war, the term was no longer applicable, because different troll races built their own empires. The Amani built Zul'Aman on the corpse of Kith'ix, the creature responsible for the war in the first place. The Drakkari and Gurubashi built their empires above and below Zul'Aman, respectively. Dark Trolls scattered into tribes, never having their own true "empire" until the majority of them became Night Elves a thousand years later. It's even mentioned in Chronicle Volume 1 that the trolls became distant from one another due to this.

Without the war and imminent threat of destruction to bind them together, the troll nations grew ever more distant and insular from each other. The new territories which the tribes now ruled were very far from each other and so equated to relatively little interaction between the troll factions. Although successful in its one and only objective, the Empire of Zul as an idea now began to fade in relevance. The tribes' newly-established strongholds eventually blossomed into vibrant homes, temple cities, and ultimately the seats of empires in their own rights.

The regularly-held gathering in Zandalar isn't actually canon. That was only mentioned in an RPG book. Most information about Zandalar (that wasn't stated in Chronicle or WoW) is actually non-canon, because the bulk of that info came from RPG books - which are not considered canon anymore.

Q: Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?

A: No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lore#RPG

We don't know how the Zandalari feel about other trolls now, generally. Before the Cataclysm, they kept regular tabs on all troll empires to see how they were treating their loa, and to record the history of all trolls. They actively fought against the Gurubashi and Drakkari for abusing the power of the loa and summoning Hakkar. After the Cataclysm, Zandalar was partially damaged, and a splinter group led by Zul tried to unite some of the trolls - but Zul is actively fighting against Rastakhan now. Even after the Cataclysm, no one under Rastakhan went to Mount Hyjal to check on the remaining Dark Trolls in the area. Rastakhan's forces didn't even try to stop Zul's army in Cataclysm or MoP, as well. Now, most troll empires are withering away, and the trolls are more separated than ever before.

[goof]

The regularly-held gathering in Zandalar isn't actually canon. That was only mentioned in an RPG book.

Fyi, that is actually canon, it's from the Troll Compendium about the Zandalari.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Troll_Comp...Zandalar_Tribe

"Zuldazar, the capital city of Zandalar, is built in a series of giant ziggurats that look like a towering mountain from a distance. Different troll tribes distrust one another and have often fought one another, but every six years, envoys from all the troll tribes arrive in Zuldazar in order to share information and discuss matters that may affect the entire troll race."

But, who knows what's up with that these days. We all know how Blizzard discards and/or forgets lore.

[Marcellus1986]

Just to make the topic really clear: Why would you say, vertigo12, that Queen Azshara is or was a Zandalari Troll when Nigh Elves did came from Dark Elves?

Good keen observation my friend. You see , there is nothing wrong with this perception because all troll are united as an empire and title Zul Empire. I believe even though dark trolls are reclusive and isolationist, they still are welcomed within the regularly held gathering of all Troll sub-group in Zandalar.

Except the fact that the trolls are not united into one Empire and haven’t been for thousands of years.

Also, dark trolls are not the same thing as Zandalari trolls, two distinct groups and there’s this that also again refutes your claims:

Before their war with the aqir, the troll tribes claimed most of ancient Kalimdor. Many of the tribes constantly clashed with each other, but one tribe, the "dark trolls", lived in a network of deep caverns stretching beneath Mount Hyjal. They hated the daylight and only emerged from their caverns at night. In time, these nocturnal habits turned their blue skin into hues of gray. The dark trolls were unconcerned with the other tribes' skirmishes and cherished their independence from the rest of troll society, and mostly ignored the activity of the other tribes.

[vertigo12]

The dark trolls were unconcerned with the other tribes' skirmishes and cherished their independence from the rest of troll society, and mostly ignored the activity of the other tribes.

skirmishes. That doesn't mean they have been severed from the Empire of Zul similar to the recent choice of Vol'jin for his Dark Spear as he chose the Horde over Empire of Zul during Zul'aman/gurub revamp. This means they might have not participated in the Troll vs. Aqir wars and that coincides to the millenium that they gathered in the well of eternity.


This is considered true since this coming expac BfA Zandalari Troll will be Horde Allied race so this means that the ties between the two wasn't severed after all and whatever happened in the past will be left behind.




I believe whatever is in the game should be considered canon and not else where.

[Destinas]

Fyi, that is actually canon, it's from the Troll Compendium about the Zandalari.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Troll_Comp...Zandalar_Tribe

"Zuldazar, the capital city of Zandalar, is built in a series of giant ziggurats that look like a towering mountain from a distance. Different troll tribes distrust one another and have often fought one another, but every six years, envoys from all the troll tribes arrive in Zuldazar in order to share information and discuss matters that may affect the entire troll race."

But, who knows what's up with that these days. We all know how Blizzard discards and/or forgets lore.

Ah, that's my bad then. Last I had heard of that event, I swear it was from and RPG book.

I believe whatever is in the game should be considered canon and not else where.

Whatever is in game is considered canon. But, novels, comics/manga, and compendium books (Chronicle series, Ultimate Visual Guide, Troll Compendium), are canon, because they were written either by Blizzard writers, or written under the supervision of Blizzard. In the case of Chronicle, they have been written in the past couple years with the specific purpose of organizing the lore officially. Ignoring it is simply incorrect.

[Kithelle]

I believe there is no question that she indeed came to power after the rise of NE. Now that you mentioned it didn't the NE ascension to power as NE the moment they they complete changed from Dark Trolls to NE?

But there is, the OP is saying exactly that...is claiming Azshara rose to power before the rise of the Night Elves. OP is saying Azshara was a Troll...but she wasn't...the Night Elven city that was eventually named after her was established well before her birth. Which means the Night Elves were a people well before her birth. Which means it was impossible for her to be a Troll...

[vertigo12]

Again do review my initial post. I put my topic sentence in bold letters now. Let me take out the hassle by quoting it here:

With King Rhastakhan's introduction as well as the introduction of Suramar elves,the Nightborne, could BfA possibly show the public the story behind the mystery of Elven lineage with the Trolls? Queen Azshara is the ruler of the ever first Elven Kingdom so she definitely have answers to who truly the elven race are. Will King Rhastakhan also give fuirther details about it? Is Queen Azshara the first mutated Troll along with the dark trolls who have migrated near the sundered Well of Eternitynow left and known as Maelstrom and what lies beneathe, Naz'jatar?

The history or biography tackling her political reign is obviously different from her status or identity before she was even crowned as empress. It was never under speculation or scrutiny as the presented data her being the empress is well accepted and cemented truth.


Or we can paraphrase it into something like this: Since Night Elves came from Dark Trolls,who are part of the Empire of Zul,was she one of the original Dark Trolls who migrated to the Well of Eternity and got tansformed as the first batch of Night Elves turned Dark Trolls?

This is based on the assumption she is already alive before her ascension to the throne since there are no specific or verbatim o record of her birthday exist as official record.
- She is definitely older than the popular living NEs which are Malfurion, and Tyrande.

- - - Updated - - -

So will we find out whether she was the first troll to become an elf?

Perhaps, or maybe Blizzard will simply not cover it. Wouldn’t surprise me.

Blizzard will not definitely leave any stones unturned. The pantheon which is pretty much non-existent and fully fleshed out concept made their debut in Legion,finally. The War of the Ancient became a dungeon in one of the expac although it wasn't one of the major storyarcs. So does Xavius which is also a part of the WotA trilogy.


Zul Empire now is a splintered faction. One is King Rhastakhan+ the Horde + sub troll empire still loyal to the troll alliance vs. Zul + renegade trolls + possibly Mogu empire + other troll sub race who bought his excuse with a possibility of allying himself with the Nagas and/old god: certainly I have a haunch he will be a future raid boss.

[Destinas]

Or we can paraphrase it into something like this: Since Night Elves came from Dark Trolls,who are part of the Empire of Zul,was she one of the original Dark Trolls who migrated to the Well of Eternity and got tansformed as the first batch of Night Elves turned Dark Trolls?

The Dark Trolls were part of the Empire of Zul 16,000 years ago. As stated before, that doesn't exist anymore. Even if you're thinking about the Zandalari Empire, that only has Zandalari in it. The Dark Trolls, since before the Kaldorei Empire, never had a true empire of their own, and were not citizens of the Zandalari Empire.

Just to make it clear, each troll subrace has had their own cultures, tribes, and empires. Not even ever troll race is unified - we see forest trolls fight each other in the Hinterlands, and two jungle troll tribes are always at war with one another in Stranglethorn Vale. Some of them joined Zul after the Cataclysm, but even then not every troll did - even Rastakhan and Vol'jin didn't join Zul. The idea of a "united troll empire" isn't entirely accurate anymore. It was successful 16,000 years ago to defeat the Aqir, and it was unsuccessful under Zul a few years ago.

Zul Empire now has splinter faction, one is King Rhastakhan+ the Horde+ sub troll empire still loyal to the troll alliance vs. Zul+renegade trolls+possibly mogu empire+ other troll sub race who bought his excuse with possibility of allying himself with the nagas and/old god and I have a haunch he will be a raid boss.

The "Zul Empire" doesn't exist. It's the Zandalari Empire. Zandalar has four main factions in BfA: Rastakhan's forces (Horde), Zul's forces (Cata/MoP enemies), Blood Trolls, and Sethrak, which aren't considered entirely "citizens" of the main Zandalari government due to them being cast out/separated for 10,000 years.

[huth]

Is Queen Azshara the first mutated Troll

was she one of the original Dark Trolls who migrated to the Well of Eternity and got tansformed as the first batch of Night Elves turned Dark Trolls?

You've been told at least ten times now that the answer to that question is No. It won't change by repeating the question over and over.