How do you think DH will perform in Battle for azeroth ?

[HeiAggra]

Its not an opinion lol, its a fact. He doesn't use his AM, that has no cooldown, anywhere near enough.

Like i told you it's your opinion, the point was that you said Veng DH is crap when it is not, actually it's a very solid tank ATM.

[Hubbl3]

Your feelings are fine and everything but that really doesn't matter when discussing the state of the class. I am #1 or #2 of my Raid's dps at almost every boss, but that doesn't mean that DH is actually the #1 DD. Your tanking setup works out for your raid, which is great and you have fun as Veng DH, which is important. But it's not an opinion that a Druid is the vastly superior tank and that your druid friend does not play his druid to the full potential.

[Zyky]

Like i told you it's your opinion, the point was that you said Veng DH is crap when it is not, actually it's a very solid tank ATM.

FACTS show otherwise lol. I'm not speaking out of my ass and stating "opinions". Statistically they are the least brought tank because they have the worst AM in the game. As I said, they're decent in M+, but they are by far the worst raid tank and are no where near "solid". People like you are the problem because then Blizzard is like "oh ya demon hunter is fine" and we're not by any means.

[Rev21Sihx]

I main a Veng tank and it is hard to convince anyone to even let you show them what you can do.

They know a Druid can tank anything right now. Why take the chance on us, when on paper we just aren't as good.

A lot of the posting here stating that we are behind ARE backed up by facts, they are not just opinions.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Looking at the last 2 classes added to the game, and how DHs have done throughout Legion. I'd say they will be continue to be one of the worst classes in the game. Doesn't matter to me though, i'll quit DH the moment BfA comes out.

[Super Kami Dende]

When he actually had the boss he used it under 30% of his active tank time, he's terrible. Don't try to argue that he's a decent tank when he isn't. You're using a bad tank to argue that Veng is in a good place and they aren't at all.

But Veng is in a good spot. It's not amazing but its far from bad.

[Zyky]

Statistics don't lie. Before they nerfed KJ there were 0 DHs who had kills. Nothing has changed for tanks and DH has the second worst tier bonus of the tank specs. Mythic Antorus is going to have the same exact results.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=2051&region=1
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...anks&boss=2051

[RobertoCarlos]

Statistics don't lie. Before they nerfed KJ there were 0 DHs who had kills. Nothing has changed for tanks and DH has the second worst tier bonus of the tank specs. Mythic Antorus is going to have the same exact results.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ss=2051®ion=1
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...anks&boss=2051

Better get rerolling now then, its not too late!

[inert]

I'm hoping they'll be a little better than this expac, and with the removal of set bonuses maybe they won't change play styles with each raid tier. (And with the Heart of Azeroth, maybe we can change the play styles at-will and not be stuck with one for an entire tier!) I'm hoping this because DH is without a doubt the most fun I've had in WoW, with paladin tanking being a close second in Legion. It's unfortunate because even when you're not pushing world first races for mythic you're still damned by simcraft's rankings.

From a flavor perspective, maybe it would be better if they split off one of the play styles into its own spec? Not sure if there's enough there to make it its own spec, though. Maybe that's why we had two in the first place. If the HoA bonuses truly let you focus on certain play styles then perhaps that won't be necessary.

[Tech614]

Statistics don't lie. Before they nerfed KJ there were 0 DHs who had kills.

Yes but let's look at how many top raiders actually understand the spec...

Sco by all means one of the best tanks in the world but doesn't even understand one tiny fucking bit how to properly play VDH. Watch him play a VDH, he legitimately thinks VDH viability is tied to random Meta procs and has massive AM down time. He doesn't even talent fracture/spirit bomb, doesn't use AHR and doesn't use lego legs. 3 things all very important to VDH viability in survival situations.

No wonder all these top players think VDH is a bad spec when one of the top tank players in the world doesn't even put in the effort to learn the damn class but then tries to spout rankings out. Most top raiders follow Method like sheeple, and that is the result.

[Nize]

Blizz has stated in the past that they want DHs to be entry-level sort of characters. This likely means that they probably balance it out for norm/heroic rather than Mythic, and it reflects that way as DHs perform better in those difficulties. So I expect Blizz to force them into that spot again. It's disappointing, really, but there's plenty of other classes to choose from.

[Deleted]

Blizz has stated in the past that they want DHs to be entry-level sort of characters. This likely means that they probably balance it out for norm/heroic rather than Mythic, and it reflects that way as DHs perform better in those difficulties. So I expect Blizz to force them into that spot again. It's disappointing, really, but there's plenty of other classes to choose from.

I doubt they make the class for beginners capping the chances to perform on mythic...if it's gonna be that way then the most entry-level class that's ever been is the Hunter, make them the "this class is gonna be for newbs so in mythic will be trash".

[Nize]

I doubt they make the class for beginners capping the chances to perform on mythic...if it's gonna be that way then the most entry-level class that's ever been is the Hunter, make them the "this class is gonna be for newbs so in mythic will be trash".

The hunter spec that people refer to here is BM spec, also the most played hunter spec due to its ease. MM and Survival are definitely more difficult than DH. Having said that, BM has been among the worst performing specs in the game.

[Shirofune]

Blizz has stated in the past that they want DHs to be entry-level sort of characters. This likely means that they probably balance it out for norm/heroic rather than Mythic, and it reflects that way as DHs perform better in those difficulties. So I expect Blizz to force them into that spot again. It's disappointing, really, but there's plenty of other classes to choose from.

They didn't say that anywhere, they just said they wanted the base toolkit of HAVOC to be easy to pick up and to add depth through talents.

And if a class is going to be bad by definition, then they should say it, 'cause not a single Mythic raider is going to play a class that's bad just because they failed to add depth to it.

[Krobane]

Well with the removal of tier sets we won't get screwed over like we did with T21. Stack the stats you need for nuke build and synergize with heart of azeroth traits. I think it'll be a pretty even playing ground with dps come BFA.

[lewdest]

Momentum build should be THE DEFAULT PLAYSTYLE OF DH. Otherwise it's probably the worst designed class since the game came out.

[Deleted]

Momentum build should be THE DEFAULT PLAYSTYLE OF DH. Otherwise it's probably the worst designed class since the game came out.

Momentum build right now is probably the worst designed spec in a raid environement.

Most encounters are based towards not moving from the right spot.

Maybe you could somehow solve it making the dh inmune to damage/abilities for ~0.5 second after using fel rush but then it probably would make raids to bring thousands of dh trying to bypass boss mechanics...

so unless Blizz totally changes the encounters they design, is not gonna happen.

I always thought that momentum build should be default whereas talenting would replace it for something like nemesis for raid purposes. That would be cool. But momentum it's a nono in raid environment.

[Resentless]

If you're going to be a little shit who plays a shaman, why bother commenting on a Demon Hunter thread? This isn't a conversation about Shaman, Pallies, or Monks so no one really gives a fuck about them here. The fact remains that Havoc was bottom 4 all of ToS and one of the worst specs in M+ since they gutted our AoE in Emerald Nightmare. These are facts, not opinions. Demon Hunter has not had a chance to shine, we got nerfed 1 week into Emerald Nightmare, before Mythic even was released. We were decent in Nighthold. Now we're garbage in ToS. Again facts. So before you're like "oh but what about my class" just shut up because this isn't a thread about you or your class.

INFRACTION

Man what are you talking about us in m+? We're great in m+. Near infinite stuns and high high AoE with raddons and demonic build, and if it's tyrannical our boss DMG is huge with our 3 2 minute CDs (with shoulders). I find if anything, m+ is where DH really shines. In raids it's way more obvious when (until we get our actual antorus tier set) our opening burst isn't 50% of the fight like in a dungeon boss, that dh doesn't bring much to the table other than that opener. Our sustained sucks.

Imo, the things that make havoc unique are the 2 specs we haven't been playing in ToS, the momentum, bloodlet and fel barrage spec and the demonic spec. These are really unique playstyles that no other melee DPS has, and I'd much rather play one of them (I know many detested momentum, something that really confused me) than this crappy 3 cooldown macro we play at the moment, so I'd like them to double down on that fantasy with whatever they do. They will definitely do something because a huge part of our gameplay comes from our artifact. Feast on souls, meta cd reduction, eye beam fury reduction, overwhelming power (for m+ and PvP) and critical chaos for how satisfying a crit chaos strike is. These will either be baked in or we will feel very different in BFA.

[Nize]

They didn't say that anywhere, they just said they wanted the base toolkit of HAVOC to be easy to pick up and to add depth through talents.

And if a class is going to be bad by definition, then they should say it, 'cause not a single Mythic raider is going to play a class that's bad just because they failed to add depth to it.

July 29th, 2016 DH Q&A with Jonathan LeCraft, in part 2 (it was split due to some stream issues)

Simplicity was intended. Closing gaps between a skilled player and shit player was intended.

If you make a class' skill floor perform very high, the population would crowd into that one spec. Looking at hunters, for instance, if BM was the top performing spec, it would dwarf the population of players playing MM. On the other hand, because MM performs well (at least in ToS), it's actually split down the middle with a few favoring BM. If Blizzard opts to make DHs more complex and rewards for higher level play, they would be able to properly balance population standards.

[Elbob]

Yes but let's look at how many top raiders actually understand the spec...

Sco by all means one of the best tanks in the world but doesn't even understand one tiny fucking bit how to properly play VDH. Watch him play a VDH, he legitimately thinks VDH viability is tied to random Meta procs and has massive AM down time. He doesn't even talent fracture/spirit bomb, doesn't use AHR and doesn't use lego legs. 3 things all very important to VDH viability in survival situations.

No wonder all these top players think VDH is a bad spec when one of the top tank players in the world doesn't even put in the effort to learn the damn class but then tries to spout rankings out. Most top raiders follow Method like sheeple, and that is the result.

VDH has just baseline issues compared to actual top tier tanks. Its about applying the spec together and while spirit/bomb fracture is the most "sustain/survivability" it comes at the cost of reduced AM uptime. The healing received from the SB and extra souls EASILY out does the damage mitigated by ~10% uptime on demonspikes but progression tanking is a different monster than "total damage mitigated" and players like sco understand that(before I go on its worth noting I'm also not a big Sco fan and disagree with many things he says but he does get a lot right as well, I'm not some omg top tier tank fan boi).

Bears, DK and monks and have this wonderful balance of not being limited on AM uptime. IF, ISB and BS can always be up or at a minimum >90%. When backed by huge healthpools (or effective healthpools in monk's case with stagger) you won't see the tank getting bursted down by 2 melees. Paladins warriors and DH's all share this window without AM, and they are INCREDIBLY vulnerable during these windows usually being forced to commit defensive cds into a regular rotation to protect themselves from standard boss damage.

VDH's high self healing and leech is really nice in the long run but the boss doesn't case about 400k more hps from leech when he melee's you for 60% of your hp. Sco understands this and its why he doesn't play SB/fracture on his dh all the time. He would rather push his AM uptime to ~80%. Obviously exceptions exsist to this line of thinking. Prot warriors excelled early this expac due to high base values on IP essentially nullifying the need for AM but even still they took talents/stats to extend AM uptime.

Anecdotal source: I tanked 8/9M Tos on a prot pally (hurr durr worst tank class) with it causing limited to no setbacks on progression times in a US top 40(not trying to claim I'm better than people just that I killed bosses in a time relevant manner) before using my DK on KJ cause it was just better for many reasons. I felt the struggle constantly of fighting my Sotr uptimes, I started bringing my dk in on farm as we approached KJ and EVERY BOSS was easier to keep myself safe mostly for the reasons listed above.