How do you think DH will perform in Battle for azeroth ?

[Shirofune]

July 29th, 2016 DH Q&A with Jonathan LeCraft, in part 2 (it was split due to some stream issues)

Simplicity was intended. Closing gaps between a skilled player and shit player was intended.

If you make a class' skill floor perform very high, the population would crowd into that one spec. Looking at hunters, for instance, if BM was the top performing spec, it would dwarf the population of players playing MM. On the other hand, because MM performs well (at least in ToS), it's actually split down the middle with a few favoring BM. If Blizzard opts to make DHs more complex and rewards for higher level play, they would be able to properly balance population standards.

That's exactly the reason they can't make shit easy specs or have glaring balance issues either, because the population will switch to those each patch.

Then again, I repeat. Simplicity =/= sucking. If that was what they intended and that's the reason Havoc has been max mid-pack through the expansion, they should say so already, 'cause I'll be the first to reroll.

Playing a braindead rotation to be a shit performer ain't really my class fantasy. There's so much double jump and glide can carry through.

[Rev21Sihx]

Momentum build should be THE DEFAULT PLAYSTYLE OF DH. Otherwise it's probably the worst designed class since the game came out.

Please. Just let momentum die. It has no place in a raid environment. It offers nothing but problems to group members anywhere, it's a solo quest build at best.

Man what are you talking about us in m+? We're great in m+. Near infinite stuns and high high AoE with raddons and demonic build, and if it's tyrannical our boss DMG is huge with our 3 2 minute CDs (with shoulders). I find if anything, m+ is where DH really shines. In raids it's way more obvious when (until we get our actual antorus tier set) our opening burst isn't 50% of the fight like in a dungeon boss, that dh doesn't bring much to the table other than that opener. Our sustained sucks.

Imo, the things that make havoc unique are the 2 specs we haven't been playing in ToS, the momentum, bloodlet and fel barrage spec and the demonic spec. These are really unique playstyles that no other melee DPS has, and I'd much rather play one of them (I know many detested momentum, something that really confused me) than this crappy 3 cooldown macro we play at the moment, so I'd like them to double down on that fantasy with whatever they do. They will definitely do something because a huge part of our gameplay comes from our artifact. Feast on souls, meta cd reduction, eye beam fury reduction, overwhelming power (for m+ and PvP) and critical chaos for how satisfying a crit chaos strike is. These will either be baked in or we will feel very different in BFA.

What are you smoking? I'd like to try some this coming weekend.

[lewdest]

Please. Just let momentum die. It has no place in a raid environment. It offers nothing but problems to group members anywhere, it's a solo quest build at best.

No. It's the only interesting part of DH. Otherwise DH is "press 1 button" the class, instead of being something that actually takes a brain stem.

[Tech614]

VDH has just baseline issues compared to actual top tier tanks. Its about applying the spec together and while spirit/bomb fracture is the most "sustain/survivability" it comes at the cost of reduced AM uptime. The healing received from the SB and extra souls EASILY out does the damage mitigated by ~10% uptime on demonspikes but progression tanking is a different monster than "total damage mitigated" and players like sco understand that(before I go on its worth noting I'm also not a big Sco fan and disagree with many things he says but he does get a lot right as well, I'm not some omg top tier tank fan boi).

Bears, DK and monks and have this wonderful balance of not being limited on AM uptime. IF, ISB and BS can always be up or at a minimum >90%. When backed by huge healthpools (or effective healthpools in monk's case with stagger) you won't see the tank getting bursted down by 2 melees. Paladins warriors and DH's all share this window without AM, and they are INCREDIBLY vulnerable during these windows usually being forced to commit defensive cds into a regular rotation to protect themselves from standard boss damage.

VDH's high self healing and leech is really nice in the long run but the boss doesn't case about 400k more hps from leech when he melee's you for 60% of your hp. Sco understands this and its why he doesn't play SB/fracture on his dh all the time. He would rather push his AM uptime to ~80%. Obviously exceptions exsist to this line of thinking. Prot warriors excelled early this expac due to high base values on IP essentially nullifying the need for AM but even still they took talents/stats to extend AM uptime.

Anecdotal source: I tanked 8/9M Tos on a prot pally (hurr durr worst tank class) with it causing limited to no setbacks on progression times in a US top 40(not trying to claim I'm better than people just that I killed bosses in a time relevant manner) before using my DK on KJ cause it was just better for many reasons. I felt the struggle constantly of fighting my Sotr uptimes, I started bringing my dk in on farm as we approached KJ and EVERY BOSS was easier to keep myself safe mostly for the reasons listed above.

A VDH is not limited by AM up time if they play and are geared properly at this point.

You prove just like Sco, that most of the high end tanks in the world simply have no clue how the spec works. The fact you think feed the demon is relevant for AM up time at this point in the expansion just shows the quality of theory crafting high end players bother to put into the spec.

And then they wonder why it sucks on their half ass "paper". Also not sure why you bothered to claim a brewmaster has a massive healthpool when a VDH has a far bigger stam modifier now and equally geared should have over a million on a brewmaster OUTSIDE of meta. /facepalm. VDH has the 2nd highest base health in the game now of any tank(behind druid) and has the 2nd highest HP potential of any tank(behind blood).

But again, I don't expect people to realize this when they still think feed the demon is relevant to progression. Sco has no idea how to play the spec, it's not surprise people are going to white knight the strongest tank in the world(and not debating that) as if everything he said is true when anyone who does play a VDH properly can watch him play and see he plays the spec like shit. In fact, he plays the fucking spec like it's in the gimp state it was in back in EN. No fucking wonder he thinks it's bad.

[Hubbl3]

Looking at the last 2 classes added to the game, and how DHs have done throughout Legion. I'd say they will be continue to be one of the worst classes in the game. Doesn't matter to me though, i'll quit DH the moment BfA comes out.

IDK, everytime I play another class I miss the glide and the double jump.

[pharix]

a hunter is nothing without the hunt!

and there won't be demons to hunt...

[rootbeerboy]

Literally the only change is 100% more damage to your main Eye Beam target.

Why wasn't this introduced for T21?


This class is dead without massive changes.

Stop doomsaying and go upper deck your toilet.

[Resentless]

Please. Just let momentum die. It has no place in a raid environment. It offers nothing but problems to group members anywhere, it's a solo quest build at best.

How can you talk about a playstyle having 'no place in a raid environment' because you just don't like moving? Step outside of your little box for 3 seconds and think about the larger game. How many melee in the game at the moment are 'stand still, hit the boss, use cooldowns on cooldown and only move when the boss does something that requires you to move'? Pretty much every single one other than momentum DH. Personally, I think blizzard should have said fuck off to all the haters and made it the premier playstyle but whatever. Why you want it to be another stand still hit the boss spec I don't understand. If you want to be easier on your healers and not fuck up the raid, why are you playing a DH and not rolling whatever the FOTM melee is and playing that instead?

- - - Updated - - -

What are you smoking? I'd like to try some this coming weekend.

And nice constructive feedback with that one, you seem like you're the right person to make decisions for a class.

[Rev21Sihx]

How can you talk about a playstyle having 'no place in a raid environment' because you just don't like moving? Step outside of your little box for 3 seconds and think about the larger game. How many melee in the game at the moment are 'stand still, hit the boss, use cooldowns on cooldown and only move when the boss does something that requires you to move'? Pretty much every single one other than momentum DH. Personally, I think blizzard should have said fuck off to all the haters and made it the premier playstyle but whatever. Why you want it to be another stand still hit the boss spec I don't understand. If you want to be easier on your healers and not fuck up the raid, why are you playing a DH and not rolling whatever the FOTM melee is and playing that instead?

- - - Updated - - -



And nice constructive feedback with that one, you seem like you're the right person to make decisions for a class.

You are far too emotionally invested in a spec that is going the way of the dinosaurs.

Nothing is wrong with moving. When that is all you do, you run into problems.

The sheer amount of "Woops I pulled another one" wipes should have made it clear that the design does not fit any of the standard dungeons, or raids.

[Resentless]

You are far too emotionally invested in a spec that is going the way of the dinosaurs.

Nothing is wrong with moving. When that is all you do, you run into problems.

The sheer amount of "Woops I pulled another one" wipes should have made it clear that the design does not fit any of the standard dungeons, or raids.

Who cares if it doesnt fit the "standard" raids and dungeons? make it work. give dh a smaller aggro radius, make fel rush not go as far, or just keep it exactly as it is but make it very rewarding while remaining hard to play. Thats what we need more of, hard to play yet rewarding playstyles, not 3 button macro mashing that any 12 year old that picks up legion can do.

[Sellest]

Who cares if it doesnt fit the "standard" raids and dungeons? make it work. give dh a smaller aggro radius, make fel rush not go as far, or just keep it exactly as it is but make it very rewarding while remaining hard to play. Thats what we need more of, hard to play yet rewarding playstyles, not 3 button macro mashing that any 12 year old that picks up legion can do.

momentum was terrible and I am really glad it is dead. If they kept it as it was, I would've rerolled long time ago.

[Resentless]

momentum was terrible and I am really glad it is dead. If they kept it as it was, I would've rerolled long time ago.

so you enjoy pressing nemesis chaos blades and meta every 2 minutes and then chaos strike, blade dance and felblade until the boss is dead? standing completely still besides doing mechanics? truly invigorating gameplay.

[Saverem]

This thread is 100% pointless. You're asking the question about 7 months too early. NO ONE, NOT EVEN THE WOW DEVS KNOW HOW GOOD/BAD DHs WILL BE IN BfA. They're probably still working on class abilities for BfA and haven't even done a tuning pass yet.

Right now, the only thing I hope for is a ranged 3rd spec.

[Sellest]

no, I play demonic since it was possible to play that way and I find it fun. To charge through boss back and forth every couple of seconds isn't fun for me. I know I could have more dps by playing differently but that's not what I enjoy and my guild is fine with that. Thank you for respecting my opinion.

[Shirofune]

so you enjoy pressing nemesis chaos blades and meta every 2 minutes and then chaos strike, blade dance and felblade until the boss is dead? standing completely still besides doing mechanics? truly invigorating gameplay.

One doesn't imply the other.

Momentum while being 'fun' simply doesn't work in raid environments. (Try using Momentum on Varimathras).

On the other hand, Nem + CB is bland as hell and Nemesis itself is a shit that I hope that gets reworked/removed eventually.

[Lollis]

Most encounters are based towards not moving from the right spot.

And some actively discourage you from doing so, see Flame Wreath abilities for example.

Momentum needs to have a cooldown that can be used to activate it in encounters where movement is impossible.

[Rev21Sihx]

Who cares if it doesnt fit the "standard" raids and dungeons? make it work. give dh a smaller aggro radius, make fel rush not go as far, or just keep it exactly as it is but make it very rewarding while remaining hard to play. Thats what we need more of, hard to play yet rewarding playstyles, not 3 button macro mashing that any 12 year old that picks up legion can do.

Blizz cares. They are not going to change the class to the way you want it, the same goes for myself. Now if more people wanted momentum, which by the way most people don't (Which is why they have killed it), then it would be a feasible change.

But having to tune a single off-shoot of one spec by a DH when making a raid, or a dungeon is absolutely ridiculous. The DH specs have to fit the play style of the dungeon, or the raid and be able to mesh with the characters around them.

Also, don't compare something you don't like to a a "12 year being able to do it", this game is meant for kids and seniors to play, it has always been this way.

Almost all specs in the game a child could feasibly play.

[Evaddon]

I don't know how this has 4 pages when there is literally no possible way for anyone to know...

We know no class changes
We know no azerite gear buffs/perks
We know no stat changes or incoming of new stats
We know nothing....

So how about ya' wait and speculate when we have a beta or something we can actually go off of?