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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Fistface View Post
    True. But throwing personal insults on discussion like this makes you look stupid no matter.
    Perhaps. But when people quote a post which explicitely describes a logical fallacy, and they repeat said fallacy in their answer right under its description, then it shows they don't even bother reading and understanding something before shitting the thread, so whatever non-insulting explanation is going to fly high above their head. Doesn't give me a lot of motivation to waste time about it.
    Honestly it's an open debate and no one can say the exact truth so it's naive to call someone stupid if they don't agree with you. No one will take you seriously if every post of yours have insults at the end of them, even if you had some good points
    It's possible to have an open debate about opinion when the subject is rather murky and it's hard to know the truth one way or another.
    When the numbers are here and the player behaviour is here, it becomes a lot less subjective and a lot more factual.
    Claiming that higher stat have no influence on difficulty is mind-boggling (that's basically saying gear is useless, which we'll all agree is a pretty ridiculous argument). Claiming that having to take care not to die doesn't mean there is a difference in difficulty compared to not having to bother about it, is also nonsensical.

    So no it's not really naïve. It's not about two opinions equally worthy, it's about one opinion supported by facts and basic concepts, and another which only seems supported by the ego of the posters.

  2. #142
    What was harder or at least had a modicum of difficulty was pulling. You couldn't just attack something but had to time it. and if it went south it became life or death. Dungeons were like that from 12-60 the whole way through. Raids were like that as well. It wasn't hard but it was difficult. And all those elite quests were hard and impossible without a group. Sometimes even with a group they became difficult.

    More time consuming yes, more difficult yes, more annoying yes, more fun yes.

  3. #143
    I'm most looking forward to seeing how the players down content just by having prior knowledge, and how big of a role gear plays compared to today. "Does raw skill and knowledge help more than gear did in 2004?" That's the question I can't wait to see the answer to.

  4. #144
    The hardest part was my repair bill as a tank after raids. Great fun spending the whole week farming for repair money (not).

  5. #145
    I'm very excited actually to see the first few groups venture into dungeons for the first time, doing the first few trashpulls. Especially dungeons like Stratholme will be interesting to see people deal with, though by that time, people might've learned their lesson.
    You won't find an expanded version of my avatar here.

  6. #146
    The sad fact is that people who make the claim "Vanilla is harder than current or retail WoW" are simply angry that they can't grasp the rotations or mechanics of retail's mythic raids and dungeons. And so they make claims that they will show everyone just how good they are at pressing 1 button and handling 1 simple mechanic at a time, and how skilled and intelligent they are because they have the patience to pull 1 mob at a time for days of played time until they hit 60.

    They'll show all those "retail retards" just how talented they are because they are willing to put in thousands of hours pressing 1 or 2 buttons, clearing raids that get cleared in a day on release, but do them every week for months and never see half their tier or bis weapon drop.

    So when you do see that guy running around in full tier 2, you'll for sure think "Woah, that guy must be really good at the game." You definitely won't be thinking "This guy must really hate his life to do these trivial raids every single week for months on end."

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Pensylvestor View Post
    The sad fact is that people who make the claim "Vanilla is harder than current or retail WoW" are simply angry that they can't grasp the rotations or mechanics of retail's mythic raids and dungeons. And so they make claims that they will show everyone just how good they are at pressing 1 button and handling 1 simple mechanic at a time, and how skilled and intelligent they are because they have the patience to pull 1 mob at a time for days of played time until they hit 60.

    They'll show all those "retail retards" just how talented they are because they are willing to put in thousands of hours pressing 1 or 2 buttons, clearing raids that get cleared in a day on release, but do them every week for months and never see half their tier or bis weapon drop.

    So when you do see that guy running around in full tier 2, you'll for sure think "Woah, that guy must be really good at the game." You definitely won't be thinking "This guy must really hate his life to do these trivial raids every single week for months on end."
    Yeah because literally 1 thing in the entire massive game being difficult justifies the other 99.99% of the game being a total cakewalk, right? Nah.

    Bonus points: you can kill the same boss on easier modes. Combine this with the fact that you can't use PVE gear in PVP, and all non-raid content is completely trivial, making mythic raid gear useful for literally 1 thing which is raiding the same instance you got it from, and baby you got a stew goin'.

    Also, rotations? Seriously? Do you really consider action bar whack-a-mole to be difficult OR engaging? Hate on 1-nuke vanilla specs all you want, it's more enjoyable than auto-piloting a 10-button FCFS rotation that becomes muscle memory after a few raids and only serves distract you from the actual game and give you carpal tunnel.
    Last edited by solarfallz; 2017-11-20 at 12:32 AM.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by tenaka30 View Post
    Monty Python were playing the 'back in my day' game 50 years ago, and theirs was better.
    Your RPG had mouse support?

    Luxury!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by skannerz22 View Post
    i played runescape for 3 years
    you have no idea what the meaning of grinding truely is untill you played their classic

    here is my character
    https://apps.runescape.com/runemetri...yer/skannerz22
    Bro, runescape 2 where everything was automated seriously? did you play the ORIGINAL one. *THE* original, where if you wanted to chop 28 logs you had to click 28 times and each click didnt even guarentee you chopped the wood? NO.



    This was grinding ^^^
    Last edited by Fathme; 2017-11-20 at 12:38 AM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by solarfallz View Post

    Also, rotations? Seriously? Do you really consider action bar whack-a-mole to be difficult OR engaging? Hate on 1-nuke vanilla specs all you want, it's more enjoyable than auto-piloting a 10-button FCFS rotation that becomes muscle memory after a few raids and only serves distract you from the actual game and give you carpal tunnel.
    You do realize you just shit on your own argument by saying that current rotations distract you from the actual game right? Hence making it more difficult? Please explain how a 1 button rotation is more enjoyable and less, as you say, "auto-piloting" than current rotations? I'm genuinely curious as to how you didn't see how you just contradicted your own argument.

    And as for the other "99.9%" of the game being a cakewalk, have you heard of mythic +? Rated PVP? Heroic difficulty raids? Solo artifact challenges?

    If you take away the raids in vanilla (which are about equal to normal raid difficulty in retail), tell me, what is difficult at level 60? Getting grand marshal?(LO fucking L, you didn't even have to win most of your bgs) Single difficulty dungeons? (again LOL) Grindy professions? (wow, so fun, challenging and engaging)

    Don't get me wrong, I'll be playing the shit out of classic servers, but some of these people are so blinded by their hatred for retail that they can't even understand what they are saying, or what content in Vanilla actually consists of. Be more informed please.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    If it requires more care and to pay more attention, then yeah it's more difficult. You're the one simply slapping labels so things don't count as "more difficult", so I'm probably not the one who is silly and not understanding words.
    Don't worry anymore with these "time consuming" trolls, for at this point that's what they seem to be. If you say that a box is larger than another, they will go with "it isn't larger, it is just wider and taller". Besides, they always forget to define what "difficulty" means for them, so they can conveniently move the goalposts when they see it fit.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Pensylvestor View Post
    You do realize you just shit on your own argument by saying that current rotations distract you from the actual game right? Hence making it more difficult? Please explain how a 1 button rotation is more enjoyable and less, as you say, "auto-piloting" than current rotations? I'm genuinely curious as to how you didn't see how you just contradicted your own argument.

    And as for the other "99.9%" of the game being a cakewalk, have you heard of mythic +? Rated PVP? Heroic difficulty raids? Solo artifact challenges?

    If you take away the raids in vanilla (which are about equal to normal raid difficulty in retail), tell me, what is difficult at level 60? Getting grand marshal?(LO fucking L, you didn't even have to win most of your bgs) Single difficulty dungeons? (again LOL) Grindy professions? (wow, so fun, challenging and engaging)

    Don't get me wrong, I'll be playing the shit out of classic servers, but some of these people are so blinded by their hatred for retail that they can't even understand what they are saying, or what content in Vanilla actually consists of. Be more informed please.
    To be fair there was a few areas in the world where you couldn't solo in classic. But then again... You didn't have to do those areas unless you were a raider that was helping your guild(the area outside of the gates to AQ with the tunnels of bugs, to get one person rep, to unlock the raid for the server as an example).

    It was also VERY difficult to endure the stupidity and absolute horrendous playing abilities of the majority of the classic players back then. Hope it's better this time around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post
    Yes 16yo women are beautiful, and yes it is natural to be attracted towards them.
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    Why is beating people with bike locks illegal?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    IMO all the humanities are harder than "STEM" fields.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    I think I'll make this into a macro due to the amount of idiots who spam the same BS constantly :

    No, it's more the moving goalpost of the anti-Vanilla crowd which redefines what "difficulty" means on the fly so to exclude whatever was in Vanilla. You can sum up 90 % of their argument with "X isn't making the game more difficult, just more tedious". Replace "X" with whatever the guy wants to discard. And so we often reach comically stupid argument like "having a mob with higher damage and HP doesn't make the game harder". Sure, mate, sure.


    You literally quote a message mocking the binary thinking of idiots who can't grasp that "harder than something very easy" doesn't mean "very hard".
    And you manage to post this.
    Herp derp.


    If it's not harder than Legion, why don't you just grab whole packs then instead of only pulling 1-2 mobs ?

    ---

    I don't know if the fact that I say something to immediately getting unwittingly vindicated from all side is flattering or depressing.
    By expositional factors, that would mean WoW is just as hard today in the world as it was in vanilla. Pulling 1 mob because it hits harder than 1 mob today doesn't mean it is a harder game, it means you have to play it slower. There are no super challenging mechanics mob to mob in vanilla vs mob to mob in current. It isn't like every mob had more abilities that made them into mini bosses and had tricks and set design goals that need to be met. Sure, you had to pull 1 at a time back in the day, but exponentially that's not much different than saying I could pull 6 today but that 7th one is just going to overwhelm me. Am I saying that 1 is harder than the other? No. I'm simply stating that making the statement "1 mob at a time or you die is harder" is baseless.
    It's the same thing with old vs new raids. By all accounts, today's raids are harder than vanilla's on a mechanical standpoint, but that doesn't mean that vanilla raids weren't difficult at the time and won't be difficult for Classic. But to say it's harder is just a gross overexaggeration. Once you learn 1 mob ata time (usually learned in 30-40 seconds of gametime), the difficulty is gone and it's just "1 mob at a time, nothing hard there."
    Yeah, you could argue more damage and more health are harder, but how is that different than me charging into a pack of 10 mobs and come out saying "surviving that was hard! That 11th mob I almost pulled would've killed me!" Exponentially, it's the same thing. You learn how much you can pull, do that over and over, and there is no difficulty to it for either vanilla or current. It's a baseless arguement designed to make both sides feel good and is rooted in stupidity.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Caliph View Post
    What was harder or at least had a modicum of difficulty was pulling. You couldn't just attack something but had to time it. and if it went south it became life or death. Dungeons were like that from 12-60 the whole way through. Raids were like that as well. It wasn't hard but it was difficult. And all those elite quests were hard and impossible without a group. Sometimes even with a group they became difficult.

    More time consuming yes, more difficult yes, more annoying yes, more fun yes.
    Part of this comes from the mentality of today's playerbase. Blizzard tried making dungeons designed with the idea of CC and slow pulls back into the game, and the vast majority hated it, causing Blizzard to quickly revert and change numbers. Players want that "gogogogogo" gameplay now.
    I'm not saying slowplay and tedium isn't fun at times, but it's much different for something like a classic server where it's known that is going to be a core element.
    On an exponential level, dungeons have some of that same factor. CC isn't required as it used to be, but instead it's more of "what can the group handle." M+ took this a step further and for some higher ones CC is still used as well as trash packs requiring cooldown usage. Does that make it harder than vanilla? It might for some factors, it might not for others.
    Both are difficult in their own way, it's just like the other reply, you learn what you can handle and go from there. It's sad that people argue about what is "harder." I think both current and classic can say the game is difficult for certain aspects (more than 1 mob you're dead vs more than 5 mobs you're dead), but to argue which one makes it "harder" is asinine.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Pensylvestor View Post
    You do realize you just shit on your own argument by saying that current rotations distract you from the actual game right? Hence making it more difficult? Please explain how a 1 button rotation is more enjoyable and less, as you say, "auto-piloting" than current rotations? I'm genuinely curious as to how you didn't see how you just contradicted your own argument.
    I guess I could see how you'd think that something distracting you makes it more difficult, but in actuality it's more of an irritating inconvenience than a challenge. The added difficulty of proc-based rotations is pretty minimal to an experienced player, yet it's still un-fun and distracting. You're right to some extend though, "auto-pilot" might not be 100% applicable because you still have to look at your procs/cooldowns, but there's zero thought involved, you just do exactly what the game tells you to do. It's like playing an easy DDR song for the 5000th time.

    As for the rest... I've only done up to M+10 because that's all that's worth going up to, but I honestly found it easier than the level 60 vanilla dungeons in most regards. PVP is fucking garbage in Legion and this is coming from someone with over 500k hks, I just pretend it doesn't exist any more for my own sanity. Heroic raids are just easier mythic raids, I don't see how this constitutes anything resembling a point when the discussion is that mythic raids are the only actual difficulty in a giant game. Artifact challenges are, well, I don't know since I never bothered as all the appearances for my classes are ugly, so maybe those are difficult but the incentive is non-existent for me.

    The entire rest of the game in vanilla is more difficult. Yes, mythic Legion raids are probably a good deal more difficult than even the later vanilla raids, but NOTHING ELSE IS. Walking across a goddamn zone in vanilla is more dangerous. Getting gold and materials is more difficult. Basically everything you do at least requires you to pay attention and play smart at least to some degree. That is what I want. A game where you have to make the right decisions. Move to the right positions. Use the right tools. Not press 10 different buttons in the exact order that the interface tells me to.
    Last edited by solarfallz; 2017-11-20 at 01:56 AM.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisnumbers View Post
    I'm most looking forward to seeing how the players down content just by having prior knowledge, and how big of a role gear plays compared to today. "Does raw skill and knowledge help more than gear did in 2004?" That's the question I can't wait to see the answer to.
    Wait till you see the wars in un'goro crater over the raptor mobs you need to skin for the BiS pre raid leather set.

    Better have your engineering ready, its a different world now, game knowledge has gone up loads

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Wait till you see the wars in un'goro crater over the raptor mobs you need to skin for the BiS pre raid leather set.

    Better have your engineering ready, its a different world now, game knowledge has gone up loads
    I guess I was more referring to dungeon and raid content. I remember a guild in Wrath--I can't remember the name but they were Alliance on Forgotten Coast--they were a blues-only 10man raiding guild who cleared pretty much all raid content up to and including some of ICC. Raw skill and strategy got them through it in all blue quality gear. So I wonder how much of Vanilla could be cleared in the same fashion.

  17. #157
    You could get up to Rag, maybe kill him and get through Razorgore. Be hard pressed to get past Vael with only dungeon gear, Broodlord would almost if not outright 1 shot tanks with his MS.

    If you jump around the first 3 in AQ would probably be doable as well. Big maybe on Fankriss.
    Last edited by Covfefe the Strong; 2017-11-20 at 02:34 AM.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisnumbers View Post
    I guess I was more referring to dungeon and raid content. I remember a guild in Wrath--I can't remember the name but they were Alliance on Forgotten Coast--they were a blues-only 10man raiding guild who cleared pretty much all raid content up to and including some of ICC. Raw skill and strategy got them through it in all blue quality gear. So I wonder how much of Vanilla could be cleared in the same fashion.
    You need to remember that there was a lot of blue gear that was simply better than a lot of epic quality gear by the time AQ was released, so you could probably go further than you might think. It would be tricky for a few bosses however because they require some resistance gear, but I don't think clearing up to and including Fankriss is impossible. By the time you reach Huhuran, you might simply hit a stop since that boss requires so much NR gear for your Melee, and the HP pools probably won't be enough to deal with the damage. If they could get past Huhuran though, I think Twin Emps would be quite an easy feat, while C'thun is probably impossible since you simply won't have the HP or DPS to deal with everything.

    A few Naxx bosses are most certainly doable. Anub'rekhan, Noth and Instructor Razuvious should be fairly easy pickings, with the difficulty going in that order. Faerlina might actually be a bit of a DPS check since you wanna kill her before you run out of Worshippers to mind control. Heigan the Unclean could probably be killed as well, but the problem in that case is not the boss itself, but the ruthless gauntlet between him and Noth. I wouldn't say the gauntlet is impossible, but you'd be really hard pressed for DPS in there with only blue gear. Beyond that however, the rest of the bosses should be impossible. The raid will simply not have enough DPS to prevent getting overrun on Gothik. Tanks will get one shot instantly by Patchwerk, and also by Maexxna when she enrages at 30%, if not sooner, during a web spray. Loatheb is the hardest DPS check in Vanilla by a lightyear and is tough even with the raid in full Naxxramas gear.
    Last edited by Whiskra; 2017-11-20 at 02:47 AM.
    You won't find an expanded version of my avatar here.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by solarfallz View Post
    I guess I could see how you'd think that something distracting you makes it more difficult, but in actuality it's more of an irritating inconvenience than a challenge. The added difficulty of proc-based rotations is pretty minimal to an experienced player, yet it's still un-fun and distracting. You're right to some extend though, "auto-pilot" might not be 100% applicable because you still have to look at your procs/cooldowns, but there's zero thought involved, you just do exactly what the game tells you to do. It's like playing an easy DDR song for the 5000th time.

    As for the rest... I've only done up to M+10 because that's all that's worth going up to, but I honestly found it easier than the level 60 vanilla dungeons in most regards.
    If you want a challenge then M+15 and higher ones are definitely harder, and give more rewards. In addition one M+15 gives a new appearance, but:

    Quote Originally Posted by solarfallz View Post
    Artifact challenges are, well, I don't know since I never bothered as all the appearances for my classes are ugly, so maybe those are difficult but the incentive is non-existent for me.
    Aesop in Rome wrote a reply to this:
    Driven by hunger, a fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine. Although she leaped with all her strength, she couldn't manage to reach the grapes. As she went away, the fox remarked, 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet! I don't need any sour grapes.'
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Your RPG had mouse support?

    Luxury!
    Your RPG had graphics?

    Luxury! In my days it was only text.

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