Classic must be tuned higher than it was in 2004

[freezion]

being frost while progressing AQ - really?

sounds like somebody forgot that viscidus existed.
having a couple of frost mages were mandatory for that encounter.

so if you were doing him the same night as other bosses, you would have frost mages in the raid.

[Deleted]

With 13 years of advancement, knowledge, tactics and expertise, the Vanilla of 2004 would be far too easy for the playerbase today. Therefore to recreate that experience, world, dungeon and raid enemies must be tuned much higher to account for these factors. Otherwise all the content will be steamrolled very quickly and it'd defeat the purpose of the project.

The purpose of the project is to bring back classic, as it was, the authentic game.

On the other hand steamrolling is inevitable, because you can reset your game, but you can't just reset players' dacade old knowledge and experience, and there are the modern mmo gamig equipments as well, like gaming mouses and keyboards, or the Razer Orbweaver thingy, that much more ppl use nowadays.

That's why it won't be the same game ever, and that's why you can see much more sophisticated and complex boss encounters nowadays. The skill level of the playerbase increases over time, they can complete more difficult tasks than before, thus they need more challenging content.

Increasing and tuning classic content on a way that you wish for, takes away the classic part of classic, and it becomes no longer classic.

[Cronovey]

sounds like somebody forgot that viscidus existed.
having a couple of frost mages were mandatory for that encounter.

so if you were doing him the same night as other bosses, you would have frost mages in the raid.

It wasn't necessary, but it made it easier. Frost damage wands and rogues/warriors who had secondary weapons to swap to with Icy enchants were just as good, but IIRC there weren't a lot of frost damage wands; I recall saving one on my mage from like a level ~30ish quest in Dustwallow Marsh class quest because they were so hard to come by.

[freezion]

It wasn't necessary, but it made it easier. Frost damage wands and rogues/warriors who had secondary weapons to swap to with Icy enchants were just as good, but IIRC there weren't a lot of frost damage wands; I recall saving one on my mage from like a level ~30ish quest in Dustwallow Marsh class quest because they were so hard to come by.

it were doable, but it went a metric fucktonne faster with frostmages.
the frost damage done by wands and enchants were simply laughable considering the threshold needed to freeze him up.
other than that, slowing the blobs was also a huge bonus.

[Deleted]

No it won't be.
Main reason is that gear is not as easy obtainable like today. Additionally building dungeon groups take more efforts, dungeons take much longer to complete.
Mobs will run away in dungeons and add more groups in uncoordinated groups. Raidsize is bigger, gearing up more people and coordinate everything will be much harder for most casual players. Additionally many encounters at a later stage were just gearchecks. You won't compensate because you already completed this content more than 12 years ago.
Yes there will be a few people that will steamrush things. But those people will spend much more time to prepare for raids than they would need in retail and will be online 24/7 to achieve that.

Less gear =/= Harder raids
The game itself is a fuck ton easier when you know just to stack rogues, warriors and mages. The game itself is a joke of "Super min/max" which is obvious on private servers because speed running is really the only hardest part there is left.

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sounds like somebody forgot that viscidus existed.
having a couple of frost mages were mandatory for that encounter.

so if you were doing him the same night as other bosses, you would have frost mages in the raid.

You could use frost wands without having to respec that precious gold away.

[freezion]

You could use frost wands without having to respec that precious gold away.

you still needed to reach a certain threshold within a 30 second timer to shatter him.
having a couple of frostmages were more viable for quicker and safer kills.

[Vaelorian]

You're misguided. People aren't "better" now than hey were.

The only thing we have now is knowledge, extensive knowledge of WoW Vanilla. Be it from experience (during WoW I bet a lot of people in Naxx... would look back on how they played the game from 1-60+MC/BWL and though: I would do it differently/better) or sites.

The one you quoted is double misguided because the gear ánd skills available for the playercharacter was very limited. So if they tune the bosses upward.... the players will not be able to cope with certain mechanics....

But peoples skill were not bad back then. People were inexperienced at first. But seriously... as soon as we entered raids... and saw how that went... we got experienced enough to play properly. Every expansion we get a different way to play our character... What does that tell you?

I mean look at people joining WoW today... some people just started and even raided... some of them are top level players... are we saying that the same could not be said for people who played WoW Vanilla? We all came in as a noob one day. Personally I was an avid gamer.... I filled my time with various games and loved it... Only thing that was new to me was the Mmo and raiding aspect.... not that hard a cookie.

[Shiny212]

I see your argument and I raise you this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34ba7rg0gdc

Say what you will, but this is the best players available at the time, and just to name a few things:
being frost while progressing AQ - really? The mana inefficiency is real, the lack of counterspells on eyes is real, "misuse" of blink is also very apparent.

Compare the general playstyle of this player to say world first Gul'dan, there's a royal gap.

The "best players", don't make me laugh". "Best players" have never been, and still aren't raiders. Why do raiders think they're somehow "good players"? It's never been difficult to play your class optimally in a raid. The only difficult thing has been pvping when the game was somewhat balanced ie wotlk s7-8. Go look at some of the vanilla top pvpers if you wanna see "skilled" players, not raiders. Sure it's not balanced blahblah, you can still detect a player's skill when you see a mage take on 3 players simultaneously. Same deal in current wow.


Everything else in this game is about stacking your odds against things using one resource and one resource only, TIME.

At the end of the day though I guess it's not surprising that so many people believe raiding is "hard" and being part of raids lets you call yourself a skilled, good player, but really you're just "a player" investing the time required.

[Runolist]

I remember when we had all dps warriors (5) wearing Nightfall axe in Naxx raid for casters xD was so pro

[Deleted]

You're misguided. People aren't "better" now than hey were.

Really? So if you've been flipping burgers for 14 years, you don't think you've gotten better?

[Deleted]

some people will be roll other classes and hope blizzard change vanilla to something thats not vanilla =P

server was around 40% rogues before BC came out back then i guess it could be higher than 50% in classic

I was thinking it will be more like 90%

[Hottage]

Nope. Nope. Nope. No.

Balance, mechanics and lore must remain true to the original.

Only possible updates are (outside of normal play) bugs/exploits, optional graphics update and (possibly) Battle.net integration.

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You're misguided. People aren't "better" now than hey were.

Incorrect, there is a huge wealth of resources dedicated to min/maxing almost every aspect of Classic.

Raid guides, gold farming strategies, PvP team synergies. Every aspect of the game has been theorycrafted to the nth degree.

[Lawnmower]

just roll a rogue like 50% of the server

Daish from Destromath by chance?

On Topic: People would rush to get "blued out" back then with a dash of purple thrown in to the mix here and there. I only had a few tier pieces max, given my buddies and I mainly pvp'd. It sure was fun wall jumping behind WSG with the flag though.

[Gavll]

you are wrong, a lot or most of the classic raids were gear checks, tuning them higher would be a nightmare

No, you are wrong. Most of them were co-ordination checks. A few bosses were gear checks (early in the cycle). If you played on any private servers, then you'd know "Vael the guild killer" is trash and dies in 45 seconds now. Even Patchwerk with an extra 1m HP is no issue for a good raid.

If the server starts on 1.12 (or a hypothetical 1.13) then they should definitely buff raid boss HP and damage.

If it starts at 1.0, then fair enough.

[Deleted]

With 13 years of advancement, knowledge, tactics and expertise, the Vanilla of 2004 would be far too easy for the playerbase today.

Yeah, I mean we're in full epic with legendary gear while those vanilla scrubs had blues, and we're killing heroic raid bosses and blasting through raids in no time, while those vanilla simpletons wiped endlessly on their normal raid bosses! Clearly we are far superior players of great intellect and skill./s

Nah, it'll be fine. The playerbase today has a hugely inflated and delusional view of their own abilities, thanks to Blizzard handing out rewards with no skill or effort required.

[Glaziola]

If they tune the raids they should tune classes too. Just to keep the balance.

[Heathy]

this hyperbolic circle jerk is funny and all that but as a healer i can fully say that the difficulty of the mechanics in the encounters has only grown over the years, its harder to heal a raid, today, than it was during classic.

theres no over inflating anything really, the classic game was a massive time sink, as soon as you get 40 ppl together willing to raid the game will again hand out epics with little skill involved, that is going to be the same. this whole shit flinging thing is boring.

reading these classic praising comments and crapping on retail and the ppl who still enjoy the game as if there was much more to it than just a much deeper time investment requirement. its not like you don't reach a point today where progress starts to wane or even stop for long periods of time, just because you might get one epic from molten core one week then not see another one until 3 weeks later doesn't exactly mean the game was way more challenging. you'll just have to put up with a much slower natural progress. with lots of days with no progress at all.

if you can put up with the time sink, if you don't mind dkp systems, waiting for loots, passing loot/bids to other lesser geared players in you class group, taking your time to gear up, I feel that you've pretty much overcome The Challenge.

I think the game is more geared toward the idea that ppl will eventually play more than 1 class, or that its balanced in a way that its possible to change class on a whim and not be 6 months or a year or whatever behind. on a comparison of progress, sure you fly through the gear if your actively farming mythic + and raiding. if your trying to level and play/raid with multiple alts then you start moving into an equal time sink as what classic was if not much worst considering there are more alts you can make these days.

as much as i agree that gearing is fast, it also makes sense in a game where there is 12 classes and only 1 life time. heck even if you wanted to i doubt its possible to maintain 1 of each alt, theres a lot of game to experience playing different classes and roles, and yet not much time to really be able to do that successfully or effectively.

[Akka]

I don't really mind if they tune the early raids to cope with the 1.12 talents, so that they are about the same as when they were attempted. And possibly if they remove the debuff limit (which wasn't a design choice but a factual limitation going against the intended design) and they also tune the bosses according to this.

But that's it. No adjustement toward what the players are supposed to be.
First, I'd like to see how the mantra about how the gaming population has become better actually hold against reality (people tend to forget that pserver emulate WoW, not [b]replicate[/i] it, and the incredible amount of details they simply can't know).
Second, the point is to get Vanilla back, and if we can faceroll it because we have progressed, then so be it.

[Deleted]

sounds like somebody forgot that viscidus existed.
having a couple of frost mages were mandatory for that encounter.

so if you were doing him the same night as other bosses, you would have frost mages in the raid.

not really, any frost damage sources counted.

There was for example a blue lvl20 dagger that melees could farm in razorfen kraul or something

Killed Viscidus server first back then.

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It wasn't necessary, but it made it easier. Frost damage wands and rogues/warriors who had secondary weapons to swap to with Icy enchants were just as good, but IIRC there weren't a lot of frost damage wands; I recall saving one on my mage from like a level ~30ish quest in Dustwallow Marsh class quest because they were so hard to come by.

there was a dagger that had a frost proc in razorfen downs or razorfen kraul

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it were doable, but it went a metric fucktonne faster with frostmages.
the frost damage done by wands and enchants were simply laughable considering the threshold needed to freeze him up.
other than that, slowing the blobs was also a huge bonus.

as far as I remeber the treshhold for freezing was the number of attacks, not the damage.



I played in "For the Horde" during classic (top5 - top 10 world guild) for our EU #2 or so Loatheb kill and the 2nd kill we coordinated Onyxia Buff, Dire Maul Buff and all Buff Foods stuff you could get.

Of course we practiced the fight and the rotations before to make sure we 1-shot it.

But the notion that it has to be tuned harder is ridiculous. Classic Raids were gear checks and raid composition checks. Required coordinating 40 people.

Anyone who thinks that people will just steamroll it - lol.

May I remind you of the anniversay MC timewalking raid? WoD players wiped non-stop o ntrash despite massively overgearing the content.

[epLe]

The thing with Viscidus was that it just required a set amount of frost attacks to freeze him.

i.e 100 lvl 1 frostbolts freezed him faster than 100 max ranked frostbolts due to cast times.

So frost mages used r1 frostbolts, other casters used as fast wand as they could.



Problem is that all the 1.12 changes, combined with poor tuning on the pirate servers,
makes all raidcontent so much easier there so people expect classic to be similar.