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  1. #241
    Heirlooms slowly made it easier but I think it was the item squish that really screwed up the balance.

  2. #242
    Elemental Lord Yggdrasil's Avatar
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    Heirlooms made it easier certainly during WotLK. But remember at first they were pretty limited. In fact, I think in that limited form it wasn't such a bad gig. Sure it sped things up but it also didn't totally trivialize the whole experience either. Once it became damn near a full suit of gear is when it totally trivialized the experience. You had no reason to look at gear choices for quest rewards and zoomed passed all content before you were half way though a zone. You were almost mid maxed your whole leveling experience. Then don't forget in Cata the old world remake really optimized gearing and quest paths to make it a whole lot easier too up to 60 which was by far the slower part. On top of that a stat squish in WoD came in and totally put what was already on tilt into complete tip over.

    So to try to answer the question on where it "started" was WotLK with heirlooms. It creeped up with more and more heirlooms though expansions, the Cata remake also bumped things, until a squish happened in WoD. Where in that scale it became faceroll is hard to pinpoint exactly because that line is different for everyone. But I think the spot I would personally pinpoint is Cata. You had the WotLK heirlooms, the new Cata heirlooms, leveling to 60 being much more streamlined, and not a whole lot of a gap after 60 to hit that 85 number. Of course it got a bit easier each expansion after that with the WoD squish being the next major leap in my opinion. But again, hard to totally pin point for everyone.

  3. #243
    Bloodsail Admiral NigelGurney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    If you couldn't handle more than 2 mobs... you were bad (that has nothing to do with the game).
    This statement alone proves you don't know what you are talking about or have selected memory.

    Wow's combat is really very simple, there is no skill based dodge, parry or avoid so being bad or otherwise has nothing to do with it. What with the damage being done the constant spell interrupts as well as miss and spell resists - You pull 3 mobs of equal or higher level you are almost certainly dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    the problem is not in the game, the problem is within you. Your standards are too high.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    LFR-players of today are capable of going to Classic and beat the final raids
    Complete delusion...

  4. #244
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    This statement alone proves you don't know what you are talking about or have selected memory.

    Wow's combat is really very simple, there is no skill based dodge, parry or avoid so being bad or otherwise has nothing to do with it. What with the damage being done the constant spell interrupts as well as miss and spell resists - You pull 3 mobs of equal or higher level you are almost certainly dead.
    Go away.

    Perhaps some classes struggled with multiple mobs but not everyone did. But that is a stupid argument anyway given that if you played vanilla, liked vanilla, you understand that classes had their niche and were designed to fulfill a specific role.







    Point proven? I think so.
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2017-12-06 at 09:44 PM.

  5. #245
    Nifty little antiquated tools called kiting and juking.

  6. #246
    Bloodsail Admiral NigelGurney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    Go away.

    Perhaps some classes struggled with multiple mobs but not everyone did. But that is a stupid argument anyway given that if you played vanilla, liked vanilla, you understand that classes had their niche and were designed to fulfill a specific role.







    Point proven? I think so.
    Not really, what about the 40 odd levels before that when you didn't have the spells to do it.
    In any case, someone thought that it was such a remarkable event they made a video of it, and not all classes could do it.
    You are trying to make it was easy AOE grind when it wasn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    the problem is not in the game, the problem is within you. Your standards are too high.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    LFR-players of today are capable of going to Classic and beat the final raids
    Complete delusion...

  7. #247
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evogsr View Post
    Nifty little antiquated tools called kiting and juking.
    But according to this guy:
    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    Wow's combat is really very simple, there is no skill based dodge, parry or avoid so being bad or otherwise has nothing to do with it.
    That didn't exist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    Not really, what about the 40 odd levels before that when you didn't have the spells to do it.
    In any case, someone thought that it was such a remarkable event they made a video of it, and not all classes could do it.
    You are trying to make it was easy AOE grind when it wasn't.
    It wasn't "hard either" and truth be told it was little [not getting banned] like you, bitching about "how hard it was" that the game changed at all. Seriously, go bark up some other tree. You're wrong. End of story.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleDuck View Post
    It started back in BC, however I'm ok with that, you can't expect new players to spend half a year leveling, they feel excluded and will leave the game pretty fast.
    The real hit was the introduction of XP heirlooms in during wrath.
    Same thing though, really.
    Heirlooms are only good for leveling alts.
    I am also okay with more streamlined leveling. At this point, as you stated, going from 1-110 as a new player would take almost 1/2 a year, if not more. Most players for today's market would be out before then unless leveling was a game unto itself with some major feeling of accomplishment (almost a whole single player game unto itself like SWToR), instead of doing all that to play the endgame.

  9. #249
    Bloodsail Admiral NigelGurney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    But according to this guy:


    That didn't exist.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It wasn't "hard either" and truth be told it was little [not getting banned] like you, bitching about "how hard it was" that the game changed at all. Seriously, go bark up some other tree. You're wrong. End of story.
    I never said it was hard, the gameplay and AI was basic but you did have to be careful and aware of your surroundings. It was however certainly hard enough for Blizzard to feel the need to nerf it. Now why would they do that if everyone was running around like you pulling loads of mobs while scratching their arse?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    the problem is not in the game, the problem is within you. Your standards are too high.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    LFR-players of today are capable of going to Classic and beat the final raids
    Complete delusion...

  10. #250
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    I never said it was hard, the gameplay and AI was basic but you did have to be careful and aware of your surroundings. It was however certainly hard enough for Blizzard to feel the need to nerf it. Now why would they do that if everyone was running around like you pulling loads of mobs while scratching their arse?
    Because the strategy has always been end game. It wasn't JUST about making it easier, it was primarily about reducing the time necessary to get to relevant content. Having a new player grind away for months while friends, family, and the rest of the population are out doing the "cool stuff" is a sure fire way to fail. If WoW had never changed, new players would have never hit level cap. Some, as mentioned in this thread... didn't.

    Please stop grasping at straws to make it seem you didn't just get destroyed. I've already made these points here and in much more exhaustive detail. I was done with this thread last month... thanks for roping me back into it. I'm not trying to be a dick (it comes naturally) but I really don't feel like talking about it... again. You called me out... I proved you wrong, a simple apology will suffice.

    [Stuttering] B-b-b-but... yes I'm sure you'll find some exception to "prove me wrong". Like I said I stopped contributing to this thread last month... just let it die.
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2017-12-07 at 12:57 AM.

  11. #251
    Nice videos and all but they are all from 2009 and probably played on some p-server with tuning less than actual Blizzlike. Frost mage and prot pala AoE farming are plausible in good gear, but hunter and warlock won't work that way in classic. There could have been a patch,tho, where some spells and mechanics were buffed too much and for a short while players were able to abuse this.

    I remember how at some point hunter pets could main tank lower level dungeons, which was ridiculous. Still remember this slogan "Why we would need a warrior? We've got a pig", when hunter's pet boar did a tank's job just fine. Same is probably true for siphon life as well, although i can't recall that.

  12. #252
    Bloodsail Admiral NigelGurney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    Because the strategy has always been end game. It wasn't JUST about making it easier, it was primarily about reducing the time necessary to get to relevant content. Having a new player grind away for months while friends, family, and the rest of the population are out doing the "cool stuff" is a sure fire way to fail. If WoW had never changed, new players would have never hit level cap. Some, as mentioned in this thread... didn't.

    Please stop grasping at straws to make it seem you didn't just get destroyed. I've already made these points here and in much more exhaustive detail. I was done with this thread last month... thanks for roping me back into it. I'm not trying to be a dick (it comes naturally) but I really don't feel like talking about it... again. You called me out... I proved you wrong, a simple apology will suffice.

    [Stuttering] B-b-b-but... yes I'm sure you'll find some exception to "prove me wrong". Like I said I stopped contributing to this thread last month... just let it die.
    You can make things quicker without making it easier you just have to balance it correctly. By removing all difficulty and challenge they have made it so boring you are allowed to skip it....at a cost of course. Just don't pretend people where going around pulling multiple mobs in their sleep, they weren't. Posting videos proves f all, its like posting a speed run of Cuphead and saying see - it was easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    the problem is not in the game, the problem is within you. Your standards are too high.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    LFR-players of today are capable of going to Classic and beat the final raids
    Complete delusion...

  13. #253
    When WotLK introduced heirlooms i started levelling wayyyy more alts, and previous low level alts (lvl 30ish) started making their way past 60.

    Collected a tonne of heirlooms in cata (almost all of them actually, with all the badges being thrown at players) and i remember twinking a ret pally at 73 for BGs during that time (i miss that kind of unintended content, lol.)

    So i'd say somewhere between end Wrath-Cata were things really became lenient and less annoying for levelling alts.

  14. #254
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    You can make things quicker without making it easier you just have to balance it correctly. By removing all difficulty and challenge they have made it so boring you are allowed to skip it....at a cost of course. Just don't pretend people where going around pulling multiple mobs in their sleep, they weren't. Posting videos proves f all, its like posting a speed run of Cuphead and saying see - it was easy.
    No it proves you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Those videos aren't vids of people geared to the teeth pulling shit way outside their level range. They are videos of people farming xp, not yet even level 60. It proves that you could in fact take on more than 1 mob at a time. So I go back to my original statement, if 2+ mobs were difficult for you... you were bad.

    Stop bumping this thread every couple of days after it has died. You make claims about vanilla being hard... and it wasn't, it never was. You made fallacious claims about me not playing vanilla because I refuted that you simply could not take on multiple mobs at a time... the multitude of videos proves you wrong. But like most vanilla lovers, even in the fact of contradictory information your delusional rose colored glasses are so strong you simply can't see the truth.

    It was a time sink. Period. End of story...
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2017-12-10 at 09:25 PM.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtcrime View Post
    Heirlooms greatly exacerbate the issue and honestly at this point I wish they'd get rid of them completely. They take out a huge and important part of the reward loop that makes games like these feel worthwhile to play and players are just far too strong with them in all aspects of the game.
    FUCK NO! Heirlooms are the only reason leveling an alter can be funny. When you play the same exact zone for the 4th time it gets old pretty quick. Gaining extra xp and easily killing mobs makes it a bit less boring... but only a little.

  16. #256
    I'd have to say vanilla made it faceroll. I'm sorry, but grinding 1 mob at a time isn't hard, it's just time consuming. So tired of people acting like fighting mobs in the world was the equivalent of going up against a raid boss every time.
    Am I saying it wasn't time consuming or harder/easier than today? No, I'm not. I'm saying it just took longer and once you know how to play your class/spec, what is so hard about it?
    Last edited by Eapoe; 2017-12-11 at 12:37 AM.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Heirlooms slowly made it easier but I think it was the item squish that really screwed up the balance.
    The content had become faceroll loooong before the squish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yggdrasil View Post
    Heirlooms made it easier certainly during WotLK. But remember at first they were pretty limited.
    Heirlooms weren't the main reason why leveling devolved into a boring faceroll. The power creep of players through the change of basic mechanism was.

  18. #258
    Leveling got easier for every expansion. But was still kinda slow and steady in wotlk.
    Cata is what really "broke" it in my opinion, mop was about the same as cata.
    Then Wod and now legion has been another step in the easier and faster direction with all quests being designed with group questing in mid, making it a real blitz to level in a 5mangrp.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    Leveling got easier for every expansion. But was still kinda slow and steady in wotlk.
    Only when compared to the downright caricatural state of what happened later. It was MASSIVELY easier than during Vanilla, to the point of feeling like a cheap ersatz (I actually lost interest in leveling alt because of this, while I was an altholic before, so it's not an exageration, it was something I acutely felt at the time).

  20. #260
    WOTLK had the best overall leveling experience in my opinion. It was still slow enough without heirlooms, heirlooms were still very few and took much longer to acquire, even with heirlooms it still wasn't ridiculously fast leveling but just enough to ease the burden of alts, and quest makers weren't added in until 3.2 when a majority of players had at least 1 capped character.

    On a more qualitative point instead of a quantitative, I also enjoyed the leveling experience the most in Wrath because of the story, lore, and unmatched zones they created. They didn't have stupid pathfinder and even gated some of the coolest zones behind flying (or at very least making it very difficult to progress without flying). But then 12 year olds starting complaining about gold because they never understood money management. And if they really want to complain about the gold sink there were much less nuclear options instead of time gated bs (make the tome a one time purchase for the account?)

    Regardless post pathfinder for me has left a sour taste in my mouth with leveling. For me part of the enjoyment of leveling is seeing huge scale environments, feeling small compared to them, and exploring them by FLYING to see it all.

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