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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Auryt2 View Post
    Leveling always faceroll just took enormous time in the past, you fought far less mobs with far more time and you can die more easily. It wasn't "hard" , never. Leveling always a tedious grind, time consume activity not always equals challenge. Grind is not challenge.
    It may not have been "hard" but levelling was objectively harder during Vanilla/TBC, especially vanilla.
    Reasons:
    Your gear was crap and badly optimised. You often didn't get an upgrade for ages and were using a green weapon

    You didn't have class mechanics that allowed you to deal with more than 1 mob - ie warrior 1-30

    Your relative power level to a mob was fairly even. In retail you're probably 5x more powerful and that's without heirlooms taking you to 10x more powerful than in classic

    Defias Pillagers

    Yes, it was more grindey, that's not what made it harder. What made it harder was how much less powerful you were in comparison to the world around you

  2. #222
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    1) Your "evidence" is a different audience than the one coming back specifically for Vanilla.

    2) Your "evidence" show that there is a number of people who want to rush. Mine is that there is a number of people who don't. Newsflash : both can be true. You don't need 90 % of the population of a game to be interested in something for it to be a public large enough to justify specifics. PvE and PvP realms exists after all, which means there is a large amount of people who DO and a large amount of people who DO NOT like world PvP.

    3) The whole "Blizzard has the data, they know better" gave us the Cataclysm debacle, and a crumbling WoW, it gave us "you think you do but you don't" and a "we won't do Classic servers", and then "well actually we will". Basically it gave us lots of things and then their exact opposite. Pretty terrible as an argument of authority.
    Its still far better than forum tone and color. Especially when you consider that you clearly ignore anything other than the sound of your own voice. All it takes for one equally delusional poster to echo your sentiments and all of a sudden you think you have an army of supporters. Someone needs a reality check.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ingsve View Post
    That's not universally true though. I have several IRL friends that levelled characters to 60 but basically never did any endgame content. At most they did a few max level dungeons like Strat and Scholo and I think they tried UBRS at one point but the lvl 60 characters were mostly left alone while they levelled new characters. They simply liked the progression of levelling and the various levelling zones and dungeons a lot more than max level content.
    So then pacing... shouldn't matter. If all you do is outside leveling content... the fact that you slightly outlevel it (in retail) and then don't gain xp from it... is irrelevant because the game experience is the same.

  3. #223
    if by "face-roll", you mean "not being a painful slog", then Wrath. which I maintain is the best leveling experience the game has ever produced.

  4. #224
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Vanilla: low-sodium EQ.

    BC: baby faceroll (come 2.3).

    WotLK: teen faceroll, especially with LFD.

    Cata onwards: fully grown-up faceroll.

  5. #225
    Mechagnome Wramp's Avatar
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    Above post says it all ^^^^^^^^^^^^

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    Especially when you consider that you clearly ignore anything other than the sound of your own voice.
    Pot, meet kettle, again. Irony at its finest.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felfury View Post
    I feel like every time they did a rework of a spec, the relative power of a lower level character went up more than the content itself. I can't think of a singular point where it coalesced into what we have now, but heirlooms and the easy gearing up through dungeon finder really compound that increased base strength.
    Make a LVL 1 and attack a lvl3mob naked with autoattack.
    Now try that in Vanilla.
    It's not the spells or looms, around wotlk the switched on this button up our asses saying "Activate Godmode"

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Legendix187- View Post
    Make a LVL 1 and attack a lvl3mob naked with autoattack.
    Now try that in Vanilla.
    It's not the spells or looms, around wotlk the switched on this button up our asses saying "Activate Godmode"
    It's less striking at early levels.
    Try the same at lvl 30, and it's downright caricatural.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    So then pacing... shouldn't matter. If all you do is outside leveling content... the fact that you slightly outlevel it (in retail) and then don't gain xp from it... is irrelevant because the game experience is the same.
    I'm sure they would say that that is still a problem. You still want some challenge in what you do. If the content is so fast and easy that you kill big packs of mobs without ever taking damage or having the threat of death then that does take away from the experience. Part of what they liked about the levelling process is the gradual feeling of getting stronger so that if you wander off too far and meet mobs that are too high for you then you are in trouble but then when you gain a couple levels you can try again and be more successful. They also tended to level together so having content that required you do group up was also part of the appeal.

  10. #230
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ingsve View Post
    I'm sure they would say that that is still a problem. You still want some challenge in what you do. If the content is so fast and easy that you kill big packs of mobs without ever taking damage or having the threat of death then that does take away from the experience. Part of what they liked about the levelling process is the gradual feeling of getting stronger so that if you wander off too far and meet mobs that are too high for you then you are in trouble but then when you gain a couple levels you can try again and be more successful. They also tended to level together so having content that required you do group up was also part of the appeal.
    To a certain extent yes.

    But the problem with pacing in the live retail version is that you out level a zone before completing its quests. But if you enjoy the questing and the gaming experience... then the rewards, and the lack of xp don't matter.

    But IF you enjoy the bland questing and leveling like these few individuals are claiming they did, the reward and lack of xp shouldn't matter. Pacing becomes an irrelevant argument because you are just doing it... to do it.

    Which is where these folks either have a blindspot in their memory... or they're being dishonest. Pull pacing out the of the equation and live/retail version is an infinitely better experience.

  11. #231
    Vanilla wasn't hard in the sense that you had to be good to do it
    Is it that hard to put the "spacetime"-component in the discussion. To be good in 2005 defines a whole different state than to be good today. Is it that hard to imagine that vanilla was the entrance in the mmo-scene at which the mentality was also completely different. Half of the plebs of your 40-man raid were clickers, not able to dodge the death glare at c'thun, because to turn around with the keyboard took too much time. The overall pace of the game was significantly slower, but not considerate. Usually one mistake with one of the few mechanics were usually deadly and/or the start of a wipe chain. Greediness got punished really quick .

  12. #232
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Has to be WotLK if you're thinking most changes that made leveling easier in a relatively short period of time, though it has through snowballing changes become worse and worse ever since. I'm not the type to use that kind of semi-hyperbole a lot, but when it comes to leveling it's an EXCELLENT example of slippery slope design that let a big part of the game become something people just want over with.

    You remove the risk of failure, you remove the fun in the process. Playing with Godmode is fun for about 30 minutes at most, so why is 48-72 hours of two-shotting mobs supposed to be different? The spec is supposed to create the variance. Making gear upgrades, non-damaging abilities, and resource-management completely irrelevant is what destroyed leveling, and the biggest contributor to that problem is the out-of-control player:mob power ratio.

    Also, no, misrepresenting older leveling and trying to boil it down to "tedious =/= difficulty" doesn't make it the god of all arguments. If mobs can actually hit you for significant damage, if your mana pool isn't infinite, if being reckless has consequences (pulling more than you can handle),
    then that is harder than this utter joke we have today. Or are you the same kind of person that claims Wraths Naxxramas was as hard as at 60?

    It's a poor analogue, but if you're replaying your favorite shooter SP campaign (CoD or whatever) on the lowest difficulty (because the end credits is the goal yo), when enemy bullets are irrelevant, thus you don't have to care about taking cover or using grenades, flashbangs, or strategy at all. Run forward, hold the left mouse button (oh we found players didn't enjoy running out of bullets so we made magazines infinite) and win.

    Point being that you hit a point where you make other systems and gameplay elements completely irrelevant if you just keep making it easier and easier, and you hit the point where 75% of your spellbook is irrelevant, you haven't used a single food item or potion, you haven't upgraded any gear, and you have never been close to dying while questing. That's when leveling has turned to garbage.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2017-12-01 at 05:23 PM.
    Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
    Occasional WoW Classic Andy since.
    Nothing lasts forever, as they say.
    But at least I can casually play Classic and remember when MMORPGs were good.

  13. #233
    Heirlooms slowly made it easier but I think it was the item squish that really screwed up the balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  14. #234
    Heirlooms made it easier certainly during WotLK. But remember at first they were pretty limited. In fact, I think in that limited form it wasn't such a bad gig. Sure it sped things up but it also didn't totally trivialize the whole experience either. Once it became damn near a full suit of gear is when it totally trivialized the experience. You had no reason to look at gear choices for quest rewards and zoomed passed all content before you were half way though a zone. You were almost mid maxed your whole leveling experience. Then don't forget in Cata the old world remake really optimized gearing and quest paths to make it a whole lot easier too up to 60 which was by far the slower part. On top of that a stat squish in WoD came in and totally put what was already on tilt into complete tip over.

    So to try to answer the question on where it "started" was WotLK with heirlooms. It creeped up with more and more heirlooms though expansions, the Cata remake also bumped things, until a squish happened in WoD. Where in that scale it became faceroll is hard to pinpoint exactly because that line is different for everyone. But I think the spot I would personally pinpoint is Cata. You had the WotLK heirlooms, the new Cata heirlooms, leveling to 60 being much more streamlined, and not a whole lot of a gap after 60 to hit that 85 number. Of course it got a bit easier each expansion after that with the WoD squish being the next major leap in my opinion. But again, hard to totally pin point for everyone.

  15. #235
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    If you couldn't handle more than 2 mobs... you were bad (that has nothing to do with the game).
    This statement alone proves you don't know what you are talking about or have selected memory.

    Wow's combat is really very simple, there is no skill based dodge, parry or avoid so being bad or otherwise has nothing to do with it. What with the damage being done the constant spell interrupts as well as miss and spell resists - You pull 3 mobs of equal or higher level you are almost certainly dead.

  16. #236
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    This statement alone proves you don't know what you are talking about or have selected memory.

    Wow's combat is really very simple, there is no skill based dodge, parry or avoid so being bad or otherwise has nothing to do with it. What with the damage being done the constant spell interrupts as well as miss and spell resists - You pull 3 mobs of equal or higher level you are almost certainly dead.
    Go away.

    Perhaps some classes struggled with multiple mobs but not everyone did. But that is a stupid argument anyway given that if you played vanilla, liked vanilla, you understand that classes had their niche and were designed to fulfill a specific role.







    Point proven? I think so.
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2017-12-06 at 09:44 PM.

  17. #237
    Nifty little antiquated tools called kiting and juking.

  18. #238
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    Go away.

    Perhaps some classes struggled with multiple mobs but not everyone did. But that is a stupid argument anyway given that if you played vanilla, liked vanilla, you understand that classes had their niche and were designed to fulfill a specific role.







    Point proven? I think so.
    Not really, what about the 40 odd levels before that when you didn't have the spells to do it.
    In any case, someone thought that it was such a remarkable event they made a video of it, and not all classes could do it.
    You are trying to make it was easy AOE grind when it wasn't.

  19. #239
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evogsr View Post
    Nifty little antiquated tools called kiting and juking.
    But according to this guy:
    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    Wow's combat is really very simple, there is no skill based dodge, parry or avoid so being bad or otherwise has nothing to do with it.
    That didn't exist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    Not really, what about the 40 odd levels before that when you didn't have the spells to do it.
    In any case, someone thought that it was such a remarkable event they made a video of it, and not all classes could do it.
    You are trying to make it was easy AOE grind when it wasn't.
    It wasn't "hard either" and truth be told it was little [not getting banned] like you, bitching about "how hard it was" that the game changed at all. Seriously, go bark up some other tree. You're wrong. End of story.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleDuck View Post
    It started back in BC, however I'm ok with that, you can't expect new players to spend half a year leveling, they feel excluded and will leave the game pretty fast.
    The real hit was the introduction of XP heirlooms in during wrath.
    Same thing though, really.
    Heirlooms are only good for leveling alts.
    I am also okay with more streamlined leveling. At this point, as you stated, going from 1-110 as a new player would take almost 1/2 a year, if not more. Most players for today's market would be out before then unless leveling was a game unto itself with some major feeling of accomplishment (almost a whole single player game unto itself like SWToR), instead of doing all that to play the endgame.

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