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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev21Sihx View Post
    Thank you for your in-depth response.



    Linkedblade - I agree, lorewise this can present a problem. Your reasoning with Void Elf makes a lot of sense, though. I could see that happening in-game.

    Nightborne do have a form of Demon Hunter without the ritual blindness, a class featured in the Elite area near the Nighthold called a "Spell-breaker".

    I am curious that with Illidan gone, are other Demon Hunter's able to train new recruits? The player character for DH is shown recruiting new DH's into the fold and training them inside the class hall, so this has me curious of this involves their ritual as well pre-recruitment.

    *EDIT* Added correct quotes
    Technically, all Death Knights are the ones that were trained by the Scourge Lieutenants from Naxxramas (DK start area) So as long as the race inhabited a region that the Scourge could have reached during it's campaign, then it makes sense lorewise of the six new races only Dark Iron meets that criteria.

    Similarly for Demon Hunters, the only ones that exist are the ones trained by Illidan at the black Temple (DH start area). The only new race that meets that is the Void Elves.

    If they were to update the start areas of the hero classes: perhaps DKs trained by the Ebon Blade, DHs trained by the Illidari on Mardum. Then I wouldn't see an issue

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev21Sihx View Post
    After reading Linkedblade's reasoning in his post, I do think Void would be viable as well as Nightbourne.
    If anything as it is not void elves are more viable or likely. I'm not opposed to it, but they always mention low when denying things like this. Other then their issues with the engine they have mentioned.

  2. #22
    I don't see Nightborne Demon Hunters. At all.

    Look at the Demon Hunter quests, now remember that the Nightborne can only leave Suramar without sources of Arcane Magic and not wither because of the Arcandor.

    Now there are two races I could see getting Hero Classes: Dark Iron Dwarves and Void Elves. Dark Iron Dwarves have been around longer than the Scourge so they could easily have been taken in as Death Knights. Void Elves on the other hand could potentially be given Demon Hunters or Death Knights, they literally just need to have taken on their Void aspects AFTER they became what they are — which they could easily hand wave in the questlines.

    For everyone else? Not really a lot of options. Maybe Zandalari Trolls could potentially be DKs but that's a giant stretch to actually make happen
    Mage T13 is alright, I guess. It's a bit bland and doesn't really say Mage but there is nothing that looks really bad about it...

    Except that it as a clockwork, orange set.

  3. #23
    I'd love to be able to play something other than female bloodelf (as a horde player), as I hate how the male ones look... I'm envious of male nightelves.

    Nightborne would be great, disappointed that it isn't happening.

  4. #24
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    The only 2 races that would even make sense being DH would be Orcs and Draenei. Since they suffered from the Legion and would not be wierd to see some of the orphans child trainning to became one.

  5. #25
    This is stupid. See its the community screwing up the game, blizzard needs to stop listening to them. DHs are only Blood Elves and Night Elves cause they followed Illidan 10 years ago in TBC. Player DH are made from the Illidari. If the Nightborne went the route of fel...oh they did. It's called Felborne. They can't be demon hunters.

    Also, the purpose of the Demon Hunters was using the Legions powers against them, sacrificing everything they were to be able to fight. With the Legion defeated, they won't be doing this anymore, and won't be making new Demon Hunters.

    Dks are the only things that do make sense, cause these races have been around when Arthas was wiping everyone out. Eventually, some of them would have been turned into Dks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Things like this really mess with the continuity of the wow timeline. Because at the time all of the Demon Hunters were created, only the Belves and Nelves were following Illidan. Dark Iron being Death Knights makes sense as they always inhabited the world as all Dwarves have. Void Elves do make sense, though, because they are blood elves that have now been shunned from SMC. So they could be both a follower of illidan and then taken by the void.

    Lorewise this doesnt make sense. Mechanically, it seems they have some trouble doing this, but once they figure that out, then i don't see why not.
    No void elves dont make sense. All Demon Hunters are Illidari, those are only the BElves and NElves who followed Illidan back in TBC. None of the Void Elf Blood Elves were following Illidan. The Void Elves are BElves who chose to delve deeper into shadow magic.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  6. #26
    I get that they're trying to preserve lore, but Shadow Priests break this for numerous races. At some point, gameplay needs to be able to dictate this. Having the allied races on such a restrictive class set is disappointing.

  7. #27
    lorewise there is no need for new demon hunters, the sargeras is chained, the legion is no more, maybe one day if the legion returns under a new leadership, other races could be DHs, but at this moment there is no need for new DHs. Dark iron DKs are a different story, they have been ingame since vanilla, arthas could have risen dark irons as DKs just like normal dwarfs, so DI DKs make currently lorewise more sense than NB/VE DHs
    Last edited by valky94; 2017-12-02 at 03:04 PM.

  8. #28
    Fel and Void are often treated poorly in the lore... From what we understand, combining Fel and Void is caustic, they destroy each other on a fundamental level... according to various bosses and quests... Yet, Warlocks do it often in their spellwork, we see Legion forces summoning and binding void creatures, Blood Elves become Void Elves despite their prior fel affiliation...

    However, boiled down to their current premise we have these:

    Fel Energy: Chaotic, Fiery (like a hotter, more radiant and destructive fire... that is green), treated like radiation in terms of corruption (permanently altering body and souls of those it afflicts, even when lightforged: they are lightforged versions of their fel-selves not their previous selves), diffuses and reforms in the Twisting Nether after being vanished on material worlds.

    Void Energy: Untruth (essentially all possibilities that aren't fated to happen in some divine (Light) way, Darkness, All-consuming hunger, Gravity-like effects, Somewhat permanently mutates those it afflicts, namely with flesh: but in several instances it can be reverted (Garrosh's Sha corruption, the Emerald Nightmare's quick healing after defeating void manifestations, Priest's voidform, Gnomes being converted back into Mechanognomes in Borean Tundra, etc.).


    Other than the epiphanies of a few character stating that it isn't possible to combine them, there isn't much to go on... However, in many instances it can be "swapped" apparently. Seemingly trading one for another so long as one "Fel to the point of possessing a demon soul." That's only a theory, however. Void affliction of body doesn't seem to matter when adding Fel energy is concerned, however, in reverse there is where the limits in the lore seem to exist.

  9. #29
    I've been having a lot of discussions regarding this with people on the DH discord and I've come to the conclusion that to make another race DH they would have to do something very strange. They would have to start at 110 to skip the Illidari story-line and potentially give them them their own mini starting area. That, or you would simply allow someone who has a 110 DH to create a 110 Zandalari or Nightborn DH (or race change to it).

    Beyond allowing that, it makes no sense otherwise. To add a new race means them starting 110+ to avoid Illidari conflicts.

  10. #30
    Putting aside lore reasons for the moment for how it could work mechanically:

    Hero classes are unlocked by having a character of a given level (on that server for DH, but that's a restriction likely to be removed in time as it was with DK).
    Allied Races are unlocked through quests on a max level character.

    So it seems reasonable to me, that getting a character of an allied race to the Hero class unlock levels could unlock that race/class combo simply enough, and start them at the same place as the Race would normally start with all their abilities already unlocked (to avoid the lore issues).

    Which comes back to the lore: to my mind the deciding factor is whether the Illidari would continue to recruit after the Legion's defeat. Would the Illidari even remain a cohesive organization? or would they all go their own separate ways with nothing to keep them together anymore. Would individual DHs be willing to teach more? Questions for Blizzard to answer (hopefully, I'd rather not just be forgotten).
    Orloth SilverEye
    <Demon Hunter Moderator>

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    This is stupid. See its the community screwing up the game, blizzard needs to stop listening to them. DHs are only Blood Elves and Night Elves cause they followed Illidan 10 years ago in TBC. Player DH are made from the Illidari. If the Nightborne went the route of fel...oh they did. It's called Felborne. They can't be demon hunters.

    Also, the purpose of the Demon Hunters was using the Legions powers against them, sacrificing everything they were to be able to fight. With the Legion defeated, they won't be doing this anymore, and won't be making new Demon Hunters.

    Dks are the only things that do make sense, cause these races have been around when Arthas was wiping everyone out. Eventually, some of them would have been turned into Dks.



    No void elves dont make sense. All Demon Hunters are Illidari, those are only the BElves and NElves who followed Illidan back in TBC. None of the Void Elf Blood Elves were following Illidan. The Void Elves are BElves who chose to delve deeper into shadow magic.

    I would like to point out a flaw in your reasoning here.

    I appreciate your loyalty to the two races able to be DH, but even when they were released, Blizzard outright told the community that other races will become available for DH over time.

    Blizzard said either they would be training in different areas, or possibly existing DH's could train other races what they had already learned.

    This was literally in the release text for the class and was said on-stage at Blizzcon as well.

    I understand if maybe you don't like either Nightborne, or Void elves. But either way, DH will be getting new races as the game goes on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orloth View Post
    Putting aside lore reasons for the moment for how it could work mechanically:

    Hero classes are unlocked by having a character of a given level (on that server for DH, but that's a restriction likely to be removed in time as it was with DK).
    Allied Races are unlocked through quests on a max level character.

    So it seems reasonable to me, that getting a character of an allied race to the Hero class unlock levels could unlock that race/class combo simply enough, and start them at the same place as the Race would normally start with all their abilities already unlocked (to avoid the lore issues).

    Which comes back to the lore: to my mind the deciding factor is whether the Illidari would continue to recruit after the Legion's defeat. Would the Illidari even remain a cohesive organization? or would they all go their own separate ways with nothing to keep them together anymore. Would individual DHs be willing to teach more? Questions for Blizzard to answer (hopefully, I'd rather not just be forgotten).

    Hey Orloth, good questions.

    By my understanding, the Illidari will stay a cohesive organization, because the Legion has touched other worlds and still exists in the outer reaches of society.

    While Illidan had his hunt conclude with the big man, we "The PC" have essentially been tasked with wiping out the remaining forces entirely off the face of all planets. That is our hunt. There are still entire solar systems controlled by the Legion, at least from their lore perspective.

    Either way, I am really interested to see where this takes the class.

    There are some good back and forth ideas here that make me wonder.


    *EDIT* Typo
    Revelation 21:6 - I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev21Sihx View Post
    I would like to point out a flaw in your reasoning here.

    I appreciate your loyalty to the two races able to be DH, but even when they were released, Blizzard outright told the community that other races will become available for DH over time.

    Blizzard said either they would be training in different areas, or possibly existing DH's could train other races what they had already learned.

    This was literally in the release text for the class and was said on-stage at Blizzcon as well.

    I understand if maybe you don't like either Nightborne, or Void elves. But either way, DH will be getting new races as the game goes on.
    It's not a flaw. It's blizzard once again screwing things over for the criers. "i hate elves and want to play another race as a DH". There is 0 reason for any new demon hunters to be made with the legion defeated. The whole point of a DH was using the legions power against them, same as locks. But a DHs creation is more involved.

    Also, I love the Nightborne. I'm thrilled they are becoming playable, just wish blizzard didnt give them such crappy racials. I also dont hate the void elves, they are blood elves, all of my characters are blood elves. I just hate that blizz gave them such great racials, to add to the plethora of other great alliance racials, plus their freaking racial mount. They have updated Hawkstriders with new art assets once, and it's damn near impossible to get.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    It's not a flaw. It's blizzard once again screwing things over for the criers. "i hate elves and want to play another race as a DH". There is 0 reason for any new demon hunters to be made with the legion defeated. The whole point of a DH was using the legions power against them, same as locks. But a DHs creation is more involved.

    Also, I love the Nightborne. I'm thrilled they are becoming playable, just wish blizzard didnt give them such crappy racials. I also dont hate the void elves, they are blood elves, all of my characters are blood elves. I just hate that blizz gave them such great racials, to add to the plethora of other great alliance racials, plus their freaking racial mount. They have updated Hawkstriders with new art assets once, and it's damn near impossible to get.
    Sir, this has nothing to do with people "crying" about new races.

    Blizzard told the community, multiple times both during and after their release, that THEY would like to add new races to DH and that NE/BE were just a starting point.

    Blizzard was not pressured to add anything to DH, they have wanted more races since it's inception.

    *EDIT* Also, under your logic, they should now remove the DH class entirely because the expansion is ending.

    There is much more for them to do, they still have a place in the game as they always have since BC.
    Last edited by Rev21Sihx; 2017-12-02 at 07:54 PM.
    Revelation 21:6 - I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev21Sihx View Post
    Blizzard told the community, multiple times both during and after their release, that THEY would like to add new races to DH and that NE/BE were just a starting point.
    When was that? All I remember is them saying they'll 'think about it', so pretty much a way to make people shut up.

    Making a DH is huge in terms of resourced needed. For every added race, they have to create 4 detailed Metamorphosis models which also happen to require hair colors linked to the character's, as well as tatoos. Not to mention making sure every DH animation fits a new race. This isn't anything like unlocking a new class where you can go as low resource as just unlock it and create basic starting gear. A lot of assets have to be revised.

    You also conviniently ignore all the lore reasons that were listed for you why you wouldn't have any more Demon Hunters. Or at very least, why they would make as much sense as Tauren Priests tops.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Sendula View Post
    When was that? All I remember is them saying they'll 'think about it', so pretty much a way to make people shut up.

    Making a DH is huge in terms of resourced needed. For every added race, they have to create 4 detailed Metamorphosis models which also happen to require hair colors linked to the character's, as well as tatoos. Not to mention making sure every DH animation fits a new race. This isn't anything like unlocking a new class where you can go as low resource as just unlock it and create basic starting gear. A lot of assets have to be revised.

    You also conviniently ignore all the lore reasons that were listed for you why you wouldn't have any more Demon Hunters. Or at very least, why they would make as much sense as Tauren Priests tops.

    How is it we can question what is so "hard" for them and requires resources when time and time again they go above and beyond what the community says is impossible? Vanilla servers.

    Just in Wrath, people said it was impossible to have custom Druid forms.

    If they want to do it, they will. They have the resources and time to do whatever they desire at this point.

    Our discussion here has not ignored the lore as many have brought up discussions regarding it.

    Also, I have provided multiple reasons toward my personal thoughts on the subject if you go back and actually read my posts.

    One of the main reasons is that Illidan has put the PC in charge of the Illidari, in your quest text for your CH, it tells you that it is up to you to train new Illidari for the cause and recruit them.

    You are then seen afterward with new recruits having completed his instructions. Multiple NPC's inside the CH also make comments regarding "new blood" and new recruits, sometimes even joking they annoy them and get in the way.

    As was also discussed, many of the animations are already in the game for Nightborne specifically, since several of their Felbourne classes use them.

    Void Elves have the same skeleton as BE, so that's obviously taken care of as well.

    Metamorphosis is not that detailed, it requires one male and one female that share a large skeleton. The hair and such change depending on what hair code # you have. Tattoos were never linked so that's out as well.

    The real issue would be the resources spent slapping the DH character creation customs onto them, but that is very minimal in regards to a lot of other work they put into these. They already fleshed out Monk for both.

    I am up to hearing the side of the argument of why they can't, but not much has been provided yet (Hopefully more will post)

    So far it seems a lot more possible than impossible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This was just posted not long ago.

    https://youtu.be/GifahTVQhbs?t=4m27s

    Check out the Nightborne customization. Begins at 4:30

    I could really see them with the DH kit after seeing this.

    What do you think?
    Revelation 21:6 - I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

  16. #36
    i rather see orc and dreinai DH's since both of them were in outland with illidan

  17. #37
    The Lightbringer Vynestra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Things like this really mess with the continuity of the wow timeline. Because at the time all of the Demon Hunters were created, only the Belves and Nelves were following Illidan. Dark Iron being Death Knights makes sense as they always inhabited the world as all Dwarves have. Void Elves do make sense, though, because they are blood elves that have now been shunned from SMC. So they could be both a follower of illidan and then taken by the void.

    Lorewise this doesnt make sense. Mechanically, it seems they have some trouble doing this, but once they figure that out, then i don't see why not.
    That ship has sailed my friend:



    So what if it doesn't make sense? It already doesn't.
    "The future belongs to those that have the vision to see it"

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    That ship has sailed my friend:



    So what if it doesn't make sense? It already doesn't.


    ROFL. Nice post my friend.
    Revelation 21:6 - I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

  19. #39
    Illidan trained the Demon Hunter players in/before TBC. They are Illidari. Nightborne were still hiding in their bubble at this time. So they couldn't be Illidari unless Blizzard changed it. Additionally I don't know how you rationalize new Demon Hunters being created AFTER the Legion has been dealt with. Why would Demon Hunters even allow more people to undergo the ritual after the Legion is dealt with? Fusing your soul with the soul of a Demon to them was a necessary evil to defeat the Legion, but without the threat of the Legion you'd basically just be a more-evil warlock in their eyes.

  20. #40
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    That ship has sailed my friend:



    So what if it doesn't make sense? It already doesn't.
    Hilarious, few errors there. in (8) Deathwing resurrects Ony and Nef.

    It could be possible for a Worgen to be a Death Knight. Gilneas was walled off during the Second War. During that time the PC could have been cursed, left Gilneas, killed and resurrected by the Scourge. There's no conflict with the Worgen start zone because your PC doesn't experience it. The rest is shared with every other new character. Make a new Orc? Cata(1-60) > BC(60-70) > WotLK(70-80) > Cata(80-85) > Panda(85-90) > WoD(90-100) > Legion (100-110). Not to mention the version of Orgrimmar doesn't change the entire time, so it's stuck in Legion. And the entire old world has Argus in the Skybox. The only PCs that have truly leveled chronologically are those that were created and leveled prior to Cata.

    However the only reason we are having this discussion is because Blizzard likes to have lore support race and class combinations.

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