Thoughts on RtB in BfA

[Sinbad101]

Ok, so i'm posting this here as way to see if this forum has the same type of forum stalkers as the official forum. I posted this originally to the official forums and like any post about Outlaw it was immediately met with the same reaction from the same few people who are always on every post that even slightly mentions Outlaw. I also want to know the opinion of this forum's users on the topic mentioned. Thank you.


"DISCLAIMER: If you like outlaw and RtB the way it is, that's fine. This is just my idea about what i'd like to see done to it because i think that the concept is awesome and the potential is great BUT the actually ability is irritating and makes the spec feel !@#$ty, not more complex or more fun. But if you like it, please save yourself some time and leave this thread and don't post here (Dun). Thank you.

2nd Disclaimer for the people who ignored the 1st one:
DO NOT POST ON THIS GD THREAD IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY ISSUE WITH RTB, don't be a jerk.

So, If they changed RtB in BfA...

I hope they Balance the buffs, to the point where it changes your rotation or playstyle according to the buffs, but the difference in damage is minimal. There shouldn't be one buff that everyone feels is mandatory and overpowered vs another that feels like garbage. Your roll should never feel like a punishment. Right now the buffs aren't interesting or complex ( for anyone with an average IQ), they're just boring buffs that make or break your dps. It doesn't FEEL great for alot of people. I don't care if the spec does %^-* damage, i just want it to feel better.

SnD and Loaded Dice are not solutions or acceptable alternatives, they're band aids, very boring ones. I just hope they actually put some thought and work into the spec next expac. I really really like everything else about outlaw."

[Kithelle]

Changing the rotation I'm not sure about, but all for balancing the buffs.

[Sinbad101]

Changing the rotation I'm not sure about, but all for balancing the buffs.

Not completely changing the rotation, just slightly so that it's actually an interesting mechanic, but without the bad parts.

[MisterBigglez]

Id rather have the buffs rotate every 15 seconds or so. It could still be random at that point but you can react to which buff is up currently and change your rotation from there. You would need to remove the chance at additional buffs though and keep it at a fixed amount. 2 buffs at all times would work out fine.

[Sinbad101]

Id rather have the buffs rotate every 15 seconds or so. It could still be random at that point but you can react to which buff is up currently and change your rotation from there. You would need to remove the chance at additional buffs though and keep it at a fixed amount. 2 buffs at all times would work out fine.

That would be way more frustrating then the way it is now especially if you couldn’t reroll, that’s the only control we have now.. And 2 buffs are still shitty from a design standpoint if the buffs are still boring af. I think you missed the point friend.

They don’t need to do anything complicated or fancy. Just balance the buffs so every one is good and useful and you don’t need a specific buff or a specific amount of buffs for the spec to feel good regardless of damage. Get it?

[MisterBigglez]

That would be way more frustrating then the way it is now especially if you couldn’t reroll, that’s the only control we have now.. And 2 buffs are still shitty from a design standpoint if the buffs are still boring af. I think you missed the point friend.

They don’t need to do anything complicated or fancy. Just balance the buffs so every one is good and useful and you don’t need a specific buff or a specific amount of buffs for the spec to feel good regardless of damage. Get it?

Thats the point though, rerolling is terrible design and balancing every buff would be extremely difficult.

Theres nothing frustrating about a rotation of buffs, I mentioned it could still be random but if it wasn't and it was set to a fixed rotation, theres no more RNG, no need to reroll, just know what each buff does and know when its coming to make good use of it. Its like the convention of elements ring in diablo 3.

[Powell]

New mechanic: Loaded Dice

A combo point has 3 colors. Orange - Blue - Green.
The color of a combo point is determined by the ability that generated it.

Orange -> Saber Slash
Blue -> Pistol Shot
Green -> Ghostly Strike

Each color is tied to a die.

Orange dice - Shark Infested Waters & Buried Treasure.
Blue dice - True Bearing & Grand Melee.
Green dice - Broadside & Jolly Roger.

Each die has 2 active sides for 2 buffs, the other 4 are empty.
Each Roll the Bones will roll these pre-determined dice + one extra dice with 6 active sides, guarantee atleast a single buff.

If you use Roll the Bones, it will roll whatever dice color you generated. (+ the additional guarantee dice)
For example, 2x Saber Slash + 1x Pistol Shot = 2 Orange and 1 Blue dice. (+1 multicolor)

You can increase your chances to gain a specific buff by loading up on a specific color.
For example, you know your Adrenaline Rush and Curse of the Dreadblades will be up soon.
At this point, your best buffs are Shark Infested Waters and True Bearing.

You choose to load up on Orange Dice for a Shark Infested Waters.
You Saber Slash four times, generating 4 Orange Dice and Pistol Shot once.

Now you have 4 Orange dice, each with a 1/6 chance to gain Shark Infested Waters, and a single dice with a 1/6 chance to get True Bearing.
The additional multicolor die will always grant you a buff, or a second buff in addition to your colored dice roll.

While you have the choice to load dice for a specific buff, its still within your interest to mix the dice colors.
The buffs on each die share synergy with one another. Additionally, you gain the chance to get more buffs with more colors for the same amount of energy and GCD.

This is just an idea to somewhat reduce the excessive amount of RNG tied to the ability, without actually butchering the base mechanics, wich i find rather interesting. I enjoy the mechanics in a sense that it offers some variety in gameplay each roll, making you adapt your playstyle slighty.

Obviously this is more than just a slighty tweak. Ghostly Strike would be baseline each of them would have to be equal in damage for this to work.

[ymirsson]

New mechanic: Loaded Dice
text

This is way too complex for a class ability. So anyone would just use a weak aura for best results.

[glowpipe]

changing the rotation is stupid. All buffs being equal. Yes. You shouldnt have to play the lottery to do decent dmg when everyone else around you beat you by miles cause of no rng what so ever.

[Powell]

So anyone would just use a weak aura for best results.

Everyone already does use addons for min-maxing.

Aside from that, the complexity is very superficial, like Incanter's Flow for mages.
You don't actually actively fish for dice, because its better to mix them.

Actively looking for specific color of dice would be very situational. For example when your Adrenaline Rush and Curse of the Dreadblades are about to come up. The UI wouldn't change either, the same combo point layout, but just with a different tint of color.
It adds a level of complexity while removing a layer of RNG.

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changing the rotation is stupid. All buffs being equal. Yes. You shouldnt have to play the lottery to do decent dmg when everyone else around you beat you by miles cause of no rng what so ever.

Then why have different buffs to begin with? Getting X Mastery or Haste or Crit is the most boring shit in the world.
The appeal to Roll the Bones is that you have to slightly adapt for it.
You can just play a Windwalker if you don't like reactive gameplay.

[Deleted]

Again the "this specc is random" brigade. As if other classes have no rng element... just hillarious.

[Ningjinq]

Or pretty much any other spec in the game for that matter. Outlaw’s constantly changing feel of play is very unique. As long as the buffs are relatively balanced, it’s fine. Rogue has 2 other dps specs that are more normal.

[Twix]

Again the "this specc is random" brigade. As if other classes have no rng element... just hillarious.

Go look at Outlaw's variance on sims. By far the highest variance out of any spec in the game. Do some research before talking out of your ass.

[shaunika123]

I think removing adrenaline rush and making an on demand 5-6 buff roll our main cooldown could go a long way in stabilizing the spec

otherwise I don't necessarily have a problem with RTB as a mechanic, they just need to make the buffs closer to each other, and maybe rework buried treasure cos it's boring AF

[Mafic]

Grand Melee, Buried Treasure and Jolly Roger are all boring.

In other words scrap RTB all together.

[Pensylvestor]

Go look at Outlaw's variance on sims. By far the highest variance out of any spec in the game. Do some research before talking out of your ass.

Maybe you should be the one who does some research before talking out of your ass. Learn how to read a variance graph instead of just seeing 27% variance and going "hur dur, outlaw rng guys, this spec sucks"

There are very steep "steps" in the graph, where as most specs have more of a curvature to their lines. You see these large gaps in the steps towards the high end, and low ends of the of the graph. One likely being rolling a 5 buff, and the lower end one likely getting A/S buff and no tb on every roll throughout the fight. The chances of getting a 5 buff is extremely, extremely low, as is getting absolutely shit terrible rolls for an entire 5-7 min fight. And the variance goes beyond that, much farther, with getting multiple 5 buffs in one fight on top of crazy blunderbuss procs, making the possibility of the highest sim actually happening astronomically low.

Not saying current outlaw isn't broken, but you will probably have a 1-2 really good or really bad pulls per NIGHT of raiding. It's not like your damage is varying by 30% every other pull, or even close to that like it used to in NH/EN.

If it is, then you're doing something very wrong.

[Sinbad101]

Again the "this specc is random" brigade. As if other classes have no rng element... just hillarious.

Did i ever fucking say that it being random is a bad thing? i just don't think that it should be punishing. Use your brain man, you sound like you didn't think about it at all, you just saw "rtb change" and attacked. And yes, other classes have rng. That doesn't make it ok. I fucking hate it when i don't get free stormstrike procs on my Enhance shaman and my dps is shit, i fucking hate it.

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I think removing adrenaline rush and making an on demand 5-6 buff roll our main cooldown could go a long way in stabilizing the spec

otherwise I don't necessarily have a problem with RTB as a mechanic, they just need to make the buffs closer to each other, and maybe rework buried treasure cos it's boring AF

Why remove something as core as AR? That's terrible. And yes, they do need to make the buffs closer to each other, AKA balance them . But the AMOUNT of buffs shoudn't determine your dps, at all, otherwise it doesn't matter how balanced the buffs are or if you could get 5 on demand, it would still suck when you don't get 2 or more. the point of balancing them is to remove any frustration or punishment.

I hate when i see that shit. "oh just make 2 buffs happen the most often" or "give us on demand 2,3,or 5 buffs" that doesn't fix the design problem, it only fixes the damage problem in theory. In actuality if we always had 2 buffs or could give our selfs 5 buffs on a cd then they'd just damage tune us around that. Hence why the only solution would be to balance the buffs and tone down the rng.

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Maybe you should be the one who does some research before talking out of your ass. Learn how to read a variance graph instead of just seeing 27% variance and going "hur dur, outlaw rng guys, this spec sucks"

There are very steep "steps" in the graph, where as most specs have more of a curvature to their lines. You see these large gaps in the steps towards the high end, and low ends of the of the graph. One likely being rolling a 5 buff, and the lower end one likely getting A/S buff and no tb on every roll throughout the fight. The chances of getting a 5 buff is extremely, extremely low, as is getting absolutely shit terrible rolls for an entire 5-7 min fight. And the variance goes beyond that, much farther, with getting multiple 5 buffs in one fight on top of crazy blunderbuss procs, making the possibility of the highest sim actually happening astronomically low.

Not saying current outlaw isn't broken, but you will probably have a 1-2 really good or really bad pulls per NIGHT of raiding. It's not like your damage is varying by 30% every other pull, or even close to that like it used to in NH/EN.

If it is, then you're doing something very wrong.

If getting unlucky can make your dps shit that is never a good design. Randomness is fine, but punishing randomness is bullshit.

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Everyone already does use addons for min-maxing.

Aside from that, the complexity is very superficial, like Incanter's Flow for mages.
You don't actually actively fish for dice, because its better to mix them.

Actively looking for specific color of dice would be very situational. For example when your Adrenaline Rush and Curse of the Dreadblades are about to come up. The UI wouldn't change either, the same combo point layout, but just with a different tint of color.
It adds a level of complexity while removing a layer of RNG.

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Then why have different buffs to begin with? Getting X Mastery or Haste or Crit is the most boring shit in the world.
The appeal to Roll the Bones is that you have to slightly adapt for it.
You can just play a Windwalker if you don't like reactive gameplay.

Powel, i encourage ideas and unique thought but damn man you know you can start your own thread right? why fucking post to this one and clutter it up? Your idea is a page long, go start your own, i'd love to visit it. It's like you didn't even read whta i wrote and just was like "rtb? oh well here's what i think" and then started writing that essay long idea.

As for your idea, Way way to complicated my man. You have to think about class and spec design in terms of the content of the game. No body in their fucking right mind would want to deal with all that shit while raiding or doing PvP. It would end up like survival hunter, were no one likes it because it's like spinning plates, even with good damage. Interesting idea, but you gotta look at reality.

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changing the rotation is stupid. All buffs being equal. Yes. You shouldnt have to play the lottery to do decent dmg when everyone else around you beat you by miles cause of no rng what so ever.

It seems you understood HALF my point. I don't mean a severe change to the rotation or a whole new abilities or anything radical. I meant that the buffs would just change how you think about your abilities.

A good example of this would be Broadsides, the one good buff design wise, which changes combo point management slightly.

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Remove RtB
Make SnD baseline
Make Killing Spree baseline
make DfA baseline

Outlaw is fixed

That would be boring af. Even combat had a more interesting design. IT would get boring really really fast, unless all you care about is dps output but even then it would get old.

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Thats the point though, rerolling is terrible design and balancing every buff would be extremely difficult.

Theres nothing frustrating about a rotation of buffs, I mentioned it could still be random but if it wasn't and it was set to a fixed rotation, theres no more RNG, no need to reroll, just know what each buff does and know when its coming to make good use of it. Its like the convention of elements ring in diablo 3.

What's frustrating about that idea is the lack of control or adaption. There's no control b/c you'd just be waiting for the buff you want. Or you'd be at a disadvantage at the start of a fight if the rotation is on the weaker buffs. At least re rolling with the current RtB is a form of control, albeit a poor one.

Also, there'd be no adaption or excitement if you'd always know what was coming up next. You'd always know what to do instead of having to react and adapt. It wouldn't be a fun mechanic, it'd be a background mechanic once you get used to it.

[Eazy]

Make SND great again.

[Deleted]

Did i ever fucking say that it being random is a bad thing? i just don't think that it should be punishing. Use your brain man, you sound like you didn't think about it at all, you just saw "rtb change" and attacked. And yes, other classes have rng. That doesn't make it ok. I fucking hate it when i don't get free stormstrike procs on my Enhance shaman and my dps is shit, i fucking hate it.

First off, my comment wasn't directed at you. But I knew from your previous posts that you are easy to trigger anyways. So I guess I should have made my post more clear.

The point about the "variance" graph was nicely pointed out by @Pensylvestor. TL;DR: There are spikes that can happen, but very rarely.

Now let me make a point about rng in general in games. Players usually say they hate rng, but anyone who has went even a little bit into the art of crafting games, knows how important of a mechanic rng really is. WoW usually only uses rng to spice up a specc's core mechanic. If you look at what core mechanics exists, than there is only:
* waiting for cooldown(s)
* waiting for ressource
* managing limited ressource

I think that is really all there is. All classes core mechanics consist of a combination of the 3 above. For example, healers all have a limited ressource that is dripping away with every action they take, so it comes down to a "limited ressource puzzle". A rogue waits for ressource A (energy) to build up ressource B(combo points). A deathknight is the same, but in reverse. A warrior waits for ressource A (fury) to use cooldown X,Y,Z.

As you can see, there really is a limited variations of characters you can create with these core mechanics. And with 30+ speccs in the game, the jobs gets just harder. So to make classes different from each other, what will you do? You could create more determenistic ressources or cooldowns and complicated the core mechanic of a class more (e.g. add another bar to outlaw that needs to be filled to create a 2 roll) or add randomness. Randomness does something wonderful to a game: It makes players react to something unexpected. Something you could not archiev with a ressource bar or cooldown. You see, the problem with a game without randomness is, it gets solved relativly easy. Randomness adds another layer on top of a deterministic management of ressources and cooldowns.

Players usually know when they like a game and they know when they dislike a game, but to exactly understand why you like a game is sometimes very hard to figure out. You might play a game and thing "that game is not bad but feels kinda dull". That might be because your game is too easy figured out and could use some rng to spice it up.
Sadly, almost no player in any game appreciates this. I can't blame you, I was the same. It is until you start creating a game yourself and think about mechanics that makes these games work, you start to notice how wonderful a rng system really is.

Anyway, excuse my rambling. All I'm saying is, if you think up a gamesystem for a class you do not know if that system will be fun or not. You need to try that out. A few hours, in fact. By as many people as you can find. Use the feedback you get to iterate your system and REPEAT. I bet all these bad bad rng elements put into your poor class came as part of this iteration process, because they played too dull, too calculated, too .... boring.
So, as harsh as that might sound, but people writing down gameplay ideas who have never developed any game themselfs are just that, amateurs. That is not to say that none of these ideas are any useful, but any serious developer knows that testing and iteration is needed.

[shaunika123]

I hate when i see that shit. "oh just make 2 buffs happen the most often" or "give us on demand 2,3,or 5 buffs" that doesn't fix the design problem, it only fixes the damage problem in theory. In actuality if we always had 2 buffs or could give our selfs 5 buffs on a cd then they'd just damage tune us around that. Hence why the only solution would be to balance the buffs and tone down the rng.
.

having on demand 5 buffs relatively frequently, would ease the pressure on blizzard for balancing the spec around occasionally getting it and topping shit up if otherwise our dps is fine. because the more 5 buffs you get, the less impactful getting an additional one is.

and adrenaline rush is a relic of the past, it creates this feast or famine situation, where you cant even use half of the cooldown because it literally overflows your energy bar, and yet outside of it you're more often than not starving for it.
i'd rather it be smoothed out.