I miss playing a ret paladin :(

[Wrecktangle]

Yes, it's conjured, I pointed that out myself in the post you just quoted, but it's still very obviously a physical object, contrast that with Final Verdict, which was very obviously not a physical object. Conjuring isn't what I have a problem with, the thing being conjured being very obviously made of metal and a physical object is what I have a problem with... There is no real light theme to it, it's just a generic summoned sword.

And from above (the heavens) is just logical for a Paladin who uses The Light, from the earth is not.

I do not see a physical object in that screenshot. I see a glowing magical sword that immediately dissipates into thin air (not something physical objects typically do).

Also while I do agree that the heavens makes MORE sense, the ground can be just as sacred as the heavens.

Hint: Check your order hall. Or the ability called consecration. Assuming you want both of these removed correct?

You're more than welcome to have irrational disdain for the ability, but it's stupid easy to justify and like I said I quite like the ability and welcomed it significantly over the alternatives.

If I were to make any changes though? I'd make it holy damage, retune the damage as necessary, and give it more range because that'd make more sense mechanically for what the ability is trying to thematically.

[Schattenlied]

I do not see a physical object in that screenshot. I see a glowing magical sword that immediately dissipates into thin air (not something physical objects typically do).

It is a conjured physical object, that is something a conjured physical object would do as soon as the force that conjured it was expended.

If it looked like it were made of holy energy, like FV, not metal, I'd be more ok with it.

Also while I do agree that the heavens makes MORE sense, the ground can be just as sacred as the heavens.

Hint: Check your order hall. Or the ability called consecration. Assuming you want both of these removed correct?

Incorrect, consecration doesn't come from the ground, WE consecrate the ground, it comes from us and we unleash it onto the ground we stand upon, it says as much in the spell tooltip, the ground is not sacred on it's own.

[Wrecktangle]

It is a conjured physical object, that is something a conjured physical object would do as soon as the force that conjured it was expended.

If it looked like it were made of holy energy, like FV, not metal, I'd be more ok with it.


Incorrect, consecration doesn't come from the ground, WE consecrate the ground, it comes from us and we unleash it onto the ground we stand upon, it says as much in the spell tooltip, the ground is not sacred on it's own.

We can agree to disagree on the weapon bit. You won't convince me and I won't convince you. Humor me though, tweet blizz and see what they say about it. Ask if its a conjured physical weapon or conjured magical weapon. I don't have a twitter or I would.

That said, while it's true that we are the ones who consecrate the ground, you don't get to dismiss the fact that the ground is indeed holy at this point, and you conveniently ignored my order hall example. Nothing to say about that?

[Schattenlied]

We can agree to disagree on the weapon bit. You won't convince me and I won't convince you. Humor me though, tweet blizz and see what they say about it. Ask if its a conjured physical weapon or conjured magical weapon. I don't have a twitter or I would.

you say that as if blizzard would ever actually respond. As far as I;m concerned, if it looks like a physical object, it's a physical object... We have clear examples of other weapons conjured out of magical energy in the game, they all look very much like it, having glowing or spectral forms and reflecting the type of magic used to form them. We have several examples on Paladins themselves at this very moment, Divine Hammer, Judgment, Hammer of Reckoning, Blessed Hammer, Avenger's Shield, all are golden and glowing, clearly made of holy energy... BoJ doesn't, it looks made of metal.

That said, while it's true that we are the ones who consecrate the ground, you don't get to dismiss the fact that the ground is indeed holy at this point

No, it's not, it's holy WHILE consecrated(which fades), it is not holy otherwise... We don't just cast consecrate and the entire fucking planet is now holy, that's not how it works.

and you conveniently ignored my order hall example. Nothing to say about that?

I didn't ignore it, you gave 0 specifics and as such i don't consider it an argument, "the order hall" isn't an argument, it's the beginning of a sentence. FInish the sentence, give me something specific, and then it will be a part of this discussion.

[Wrecktangle]

you say that as if blizzard would ever actually respond. As far as I;m concerned, if it looks like a physical object, it's a physical object... We have clear examples of other weapons conjured out of magical energy in the game, they all look very much like it, having glowing or spectral forms and reflecting the type of magic used to form them. We have several examples on Paladins themselves at this very moment, Divine Hammer, Judgment, Hammer of Reckoning, Blessed Hammer, Avenger's Shield, all are golden and glowing, clearly made of holy energy... BoJ doesn't, it looks made of metal.

I don't think it looks like metal, simple as that. Hence why I said agree to disagree. To me it very clearly looks magical.

No, it's not, it's holy WHILE consecrated(which fades), it is not holy otherwise... We don't just cast consecrate and the entire fucking planet is now holy, that's not how it works.

The point you're missing was that you had stated that the "ground" being the origination point of an attack didn't make sense thematically to a Paladin. Consecration and our order hall are 2 key aspects to the class that show that the ground can be holy and is indeed central to the theme of the job.

[Schattenlied]

I don't think it looks like metal, simple as that. Hence why I said agree to disagree. To me it very clearly looks magical.

The blade has polished sections where it reflects lighting brighter, it has scuff marks, scratches, and other combat scarring, none of that would exist on something made of energy.

It is very clearly a summoned physical object.

The point you're missing was that you had stated that the "ground" being the origination point of an attack didn't make sense thematically to a Paladin. Consecration and our order hall are 2 key aspects to the class that show that the ground can be holy and is indeed central to the theme of the job.

And again, you are wrong, because consecration does not come from the ground, it's origination point is not the ground, it's origination point is the Paladin. The Order hall is holy because the bodies of hundreds of champions of the Light are buried there, not because it simply is holy. The ground is only holy if we first make it holy by channeling the Light into it.

[Lazuli]

0 reason to play ret in legion when you're just an arms war without the mobility, easily the worst rendition of the spec ever made.

Ret was so fun when we were more like a battlemage medium to close range with spells & seals + mobility

[Soisoisoi]

Just to throw a spanner in that whole consecrating the ground and spells from the ground vs the "heavens" - You could simply say it's fine to come out of the consecrated ground, you just have to ignore the fact in-game it's a specific 10 yard or whatever circle that fades (when you consider consecrated ground shouldn't fade so fast in reality, as the order hall etc doesn't either), you could just believe it to be the area you and whatever you are fighting is in. Sorted!

As for the physical appearance of the sword... eh, it's a graphic - at this point we should know by now that designers aren't always thinking like the player base might be when designing spell effects. They might just think "oh cool a sword from the ground" whereas you guys have proven you'd want it to LOOK (doesn't mean it isn't) less metal and more holy. But again, you can just go back to being the ground is consecrated and it has pulled the metal from the consecrated earth to make the sword, and then made it disappear back into the earth again.

Just food for thought!


OT: Think I saw a Ret in the WF Argus kill, that makes them viable!

[Lumineus]

do you have any human disorder or why do you keep calling people "creep"

[RobertMugabe]

Is ret really that bad?

I always thought it was a pretty fun and good spec overall... at least compared to many other spec/class combos I've tried and they're way less limited than any rogue spec for example (except for mobility... but even ther I'd say ret is better than DK)

[Deleted]

This is why I've moved to UH DK - with Clawing Shadows it seems like old ret, though I feel You bro.
I dropped Ret in Legion, too. It was my main from WotLK.

Do not lose faith!

Real men use scourge strike.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Finally!

Real men use scourge strike.

♂Enjoy the scourge of spanking♂

[Deleted]

Finally!

♂Enjoy the scourge of spanking♂

Seems a tad harsh...

[Master Guns]

Having played a paladin since launch, and I mean vanilla, I don’t see what you people are bitching about. The game is as playable as ever. Classes are as approachable and playable as ever. Seriously, you never played in vanilla if you were bitching about the status of classes in this current iteration. You have no idea what it was like.

[Schattenlied]

Having played a paladin since launch, and I mean vanilla, I don’t see what you people are bitching about. The game is as playable as ever. Classes are as approachable and playable as ever. Seriously, you never played in vanilla if you were bitching about the status of classes in this current iteration. You have no idea what it was like.

Just because it was worse then doesn't mean it's ok now, take your strawman bullshit and get out.

[Master Guns]

Just because it was worse then doesn't mean it's ok now, take your strawman bullshit and get out.

It's not strawman at all, only your reply was.

[Schattenlied]

It's not strawman at all, only your reply was.

How is "just because it was worse then doesn't mean it's ok now" a strawman? It's a fact.

Just because it was worse at one point doesn't mean where we are now is ok, it's better than we had in vanilla, but still not as good as it should be, because "ok" is relative, and relative to most other classes and specs, we are still lacking.

That is essentially the situation here... We're better off than we were in vanilla, but still worse of than we should be, and we're worse off than we were in several past expansions, like WotLK, MoP, and WoD, which is the real problem. They took something that was working fine and made it worse for no reason at all.

[BicycleMafioso]

To me, Paladin is a story of a class with a long history of having things that worked perfectly fine be removed for one reason or another, and Warrior class envy. Whether, as original, from the players or forced upon by the Devs.

I have personally liked my Paladin since the start I played one, which was mainly deep Prot Pvp healing with reckoning for a quick surprise derp.
WotLK was my personal favourite, I enjoyed Ret and Prot especially, even having a 69 twink paladin for the longest time. Seal of Blood, judgment of justice and engineering. Good Times.

Cata made me really sad to play my paladin, holy power I was never really a fan of. Mop made me take a break from the whole expansion (it wasn't pandas or Lore, I liked those), but when I returned in 6.2.3 paladins were. Well, quite different to tell you one thing! I didn't like them at all. Was way weird. Holy and prot were both fun again though.

But in legion, Ret was more back to its roots and I enjoy that. Oddly, prot and holy, I did not. Turns out, removing the hated Holy power made me feel more powerful, but the playstyles are a bit more.. Bland. Prot especially. Holy I still like, just a bit less. Prot is just cooldown smash (irony coming from someone who enjoyed prot so much in WotLK).
Ret is good. It is solid. I like it. Whereas WoD made me feel like I was playing pop the weasel and gave me anxiety over resource overflow, Legion gave me a sense of impact on the abilities. I have 14 capped characters, and paladin is one of the ones I have multiples of (I don't enjoy Demon hunter but needed a profession mule on my horde server).
Warrior on the other hand feels way more bland, despite the fact they have had colossus smash for longer, it feels more rewarding to me for Ret; with arms, you push your buttons anyway, never delaying them because it's a dps loss. For Ret, it is more punishing. Also, even when I had equal gear on all my characters, I deal the worst dps on my warrior and hunter, I don't know why.. A third of the dps I pull with my dk with less gear for instance.


I miss seals, blood especially. I miss blessings. Real ones. I miss auras. I miss the three different judgments. I miss HoW. I miss 12 second DS. I miss Vengeance from the Ret talent tree. I miss being able to have worthwhile heals. I miss feeling like a paladin (who just happened to be Ret), the entire class, rather than just being a pure melee with a bit of holy thrown in for flavour.

Edit: WotLK is my highlight for pvp purposes, and legion I enjoy both in, to be clear. WotLK is also for prot and holy is vanilla-wotlk and wod-legion. In pve and pvp.

[ErothTV]

Real men use scourge strike.

not in PvP.

[Deleted]

Yea about Arms never delaying buttons you must not have Ayala's Stoneheart ...