Antorus is extremely undertuned (normal/heroic)

[Ishayu]

its easier because you have better gear from doing mythic+ the weekly chests basicly gave you the item level of a mythic raider

if you had a mythic raiders item level when TOS came out you would of found it just as easy

I had a team full of Mythic raiders going into ToS and it was way, way harder than this was, where I also had a team full of Mythic raiders.

In fairness though, ToS was probably a little too hard. I don't actually think this tier is too off the mark in general, but Argus and Eonar are just completely stupid. They're way too easy and don't even work properly as fights.

[Deleted]

, then those same players

[citation needed]

[Sarnus]

While my guild struggled on KJ Heroic a little (We lost a few core members at the start of ToS) we still were able to kill KJ in 2 weeks on our limited schedule.
I don't think Antorus is any less or more difficult than ToS for the most part, just like HFC wasn't much more difficult than BRF.

Also why would Argus have to be the most difficult of the expansion just because he's the last boss? He doesn't have to be, some would argue that Mannoroth was harder than Archimonde, Seigecrafter Blackfuse harder than Garrosh, Spine harder than Madness. It's all about who you're doing the runs with, an organized group or a bunch of randoms.

[Bloodline]

...

It's nice and all but I have indeed looked at your armory and one of the things that occur to me is your gear. You clearly farmed a good part of mythic ToS and the non-WF/TF gear that drops from heroic Antorus is 940 ilvl. No wonder it is so easy for you, you simply already outgear both normal and heroic. I'm just being the devil's advocate here but my item level going into Antorus heroic is 936 (simply because our intended raiding level is heroic). What I'm trying to point out is that I don't think heroic will be as much a push-over as everyone wants me to believe.

[Typhoria]

Either you know something that I don't or you are learning today that "penultimate" actually means "next to last" rather than "last"

We probably will have some filler raid, similar to ToV, between antorus and next xpac. Wouldn't be surprised if it dealt with the sword and whatever the catalyst for BFA.

[Ishayu]

It's nice and all but I have indeed looked at your armory and one of the things that occur to me is your gear. You clearly farmed a good part of mythic ToS and the non-WF/TF gear that drops from heroic Antorus is 940 ilvl. No wonder it is so easy for you, you simply already outgear both normal and heroic. I'm just being the devil's advocate here but my item level going into Antorus heroic is 936 (simply because our intended raiding level is heroic). What I'm trying to point out is that I don't think heroic will be as much a push-over as everyone wants me to believe.

Firstly, I don't outgear heroic at all. It drops around the same gear iLvL as I have as average, but remember to factor in average iLvL being higher than the items you generally have because of the legendaries and artifact wep making you look like your avg iLvL is like 7-8 higher than it really is. Realisitically, I was around 10-15 iLvL's behind the drops. That's appropriately geared, not overgeared.

Secondly, a significant part of a fight should be to learn mechanics and coordinate your raid to deal with things for the first time, but a lot of the time we just didn't get punished for really bad play, so we could get away with it. It's like the mechanic just didn't even matter really. Our kill on Portal Keeper for instance has like 11 people picking up the fire by accident before we can kill the boss in the shadow realm. Doesn't matter, still deal with it just fine.

Thirdly, due to titanforging, it is not unrealistic for a group of heroic geared players to have come into Antorus with ~935 average iLvL. Remember to factor in Legendaries being iLvL 1000 and artifacts as well, which are all super high iLvL.

But yeah, I expected to kill it in a few weeks, and that's fair enough. It's still too easy though. We cleared it all in 6 hours of playtime. That's deffo on the low side.

[Deleted]

Who cares... It's heroic and normal.

Those who raid heroic and normal?

[Tarba]

Well that chart pulled out of his ass is quite realistic.
Argus is easier than coven.
Eonar, you simply win at the end without the feeling of having done anything. In caverns of Time-Hyjal, you actuallty had to defeat a boss. But ok, it's their first TW like boss, so they have an excuse.
Varimathras is a dummy - all raid have one - but they were actual gear check. Didn't feel like that here.
In normal mode, I thought Imonar was a strange elite mob. In heroic, I knew he wasn't but still...

I can't do mythic (no dispo), so I'm just in heroic gear with pu group around the same ilevel.

That raid might not be undertuned in heroic for a 915 ilevel group. But titanforge and mythic + are here. So a heroic player is already around 940. With two free 1000 legendary items.
I have a reroll who might only have done 1/2 lfr, that I don't play it that much and is 918. That's fucked up.

The raid might not be undertuned. We are overtuned.

[Bloodline]

...

Ah I stand corrected as far as the item level in heroic goes. I thought I had selected the correct things on wowhead and it showed me ilvl 940 so hence my confusion. Still being 950 average ilvl when the next best thing is 955 is kind of close already.

And just for reference, this is my main character: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...thor/bloodline . My item level is 936. We are going to do heroic tonight which as you say drops loot that is 20 levels higher than what I currently have. I expect the bump in difficulty numbers-wise to be a bit steeper than, as you aptly put it, "roflstomp".

Regardless I'm looking forward to it

Edit: what I forgot to add was that if you have raided for more than a couple of raids you've basically seen all possible boss mechanics already. Now if you also have the luxury of playing with a coordinated, fixed group of people you should be able to work your way around any boss fight pretty well. That is my experience with today's raiding at least.

[Baza]

you wiped 50 or even 100+ times at kj hc?

Actually, yes, 180 wipes, not the best guild in the world, but very persistent

[Justpassing]

tfw you pull a chart outta your ass and leave thread when people call you on it.

EDIT: Too late, and 180 wipes.

[Lochton]

Where's the graph from?

[Airwaves]

I'd like to also add. Normal is made for 910 gear sets. Most people that have already done it out geared that.

[Marrilaife]

People cried EN was too easy, they got overtuned TOV after.
People cried TOS was too hard, they get easier Antorus and they cry again...

Heroic was never supposed to be hard for guilds that routinely raid mythic. Even in TOS most bosses were easy for an average mythic guild, with the exception of KJ and maybe mistress (maiden could wipe you too but it wasn't "hard" it was "people not giving a damn about mechanics"). Now pugs, or heroic progressing guilds are a different story.

If you have 940+ pug with voice comm, knowledge of tactics and good planning, then probably you can clear it, now if you have your usual "yolo everyone knows what to do, right, let's go" group, that's not exactly a faceroll. I had a pug that was wiping on high command and portal keeper. A guildie of mine tried to pug Aggramar and that didn't go so hot either.

So generally, working as intended.

[Ishayu]

Ah I stand corrected as far as the item level in heroic goes. I thought I had selected the correct things on wowhead and it showed me ilvl 940 so hence my confusion. Still being 950 average ilvl when the next best thing is 955 is kind of close already.

And just for reference, this is my main character: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...thor/bloodline . My item level is 936. We are going to do heroic tonight which as you say drops loot that is 20 levels higher than what I currently have. I expect the bump in difficulty numbers-wise to be a bit steeper than, as you aptly put it, "roflstomp".

Regardless I'm looking forward to it

I'm actually not sure if I got some of those numbers wrong, but anyway avg iLvL is a bit weird/inflated atm. They might be 10 iLvL's lower, I can't remember, so I edited the post.

Either way, the instance was so easy I didn't even notice the actual iLvL of the drops despite being lootmaster and guild leader... le sigh xD

And yeah, a heroic guild is gonna have a few weeks of fun with it I'm sure, but ideally it should last you guys a few months at least if it was tuned right, but that's just my opinion.

[Not A Cat]

Well they can't balance normal/heroic raids around people having legendaries and titanforged gear which is the problem. People are going into these raids already overgeared for it. It's an issue with the gearing system this expansion, excessive RNG and whatnot. It makes it extremely difficult to tune raids for the masses. It's easier to tune mythic since they expect those players to have legendaries and maybe some titanforged gear.

But despite its lack of difficulty, I loved Antorus. Most of the fights were pretty fun. It's much better than Tomb imo.

[Ishayu]

tfw you pull a chart outta your ass and leave thread when people call you on it.

EDIT: Too late, and 180 wipes.

He literally said in the post it was a chart he pulled out from his arse, i.e. his opinion. You don't need to call him out on something he readily admits, lmao

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Heroic is the old normal and normal is not supposed to be hard. If you go in there blind, and without addons, you'd wipe a million times.

[Ishayu]

Well they can't balance normal/heroic raids around people having legendaries and titanforged gear which is the problem. People are going into these raids already overgeared for it. It's an issue with the gearing system this expansion, excessive RNG and whatnot. It makes it extremely difficult to tune raids for the masses. It's easier to tune mythic since they expect those players to have legendaries and maybe some titanforged gear.

But despite its lack of difficulty, I loved Antorus. Most of the fights were pretty fun. It's much better than Tomb imo.

They can absolutely balance it around having 2 legendaries, come on lol. You get that in 3 weeks, tops.

[avx81]

The problem is that by the time this raid came out people are doing normal at 940+ item level. I'm sorry but it should be easy if thats the case. Same could be said for heroic as well.