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  1. #1

    #Setiscrap Actual Numbers, Sims

    [This is without the undocumented set bonus change (30% EB DMG+15%haste changed into 40%EB Damage+25%haste)]

    Heyho,

    like I said in the previous thread (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ess-DPS-in-T21) I took the time to sim multiple scenarios regarding T20 and T21.
    I started with the chaos blades build and used the best crit/haste gear I could find with an ilvl of 960 (m+ and Antorus Raid).
    That should be the best crit/haste items you can get without considering crazy titanforged, eg some 960 Arcano Crystal and stuff like this.
    For Relics and netherlight crucible I took what icy veins considers BIS.

    https://imgur.com/a/glCEf

    Here are my first results

    Mythic T20, CS build with first blood:

    https://imgur.com/a/359L8

    Mythic T21, CS build with chaos cleave:

    https://imgur.com/a/zYvpZ

    No Set at all, CS build with chaos cleave (First blood sims roughly the same +/1 1000dps):

    https://imgur.com/a/JE2uq


    You can try to sim yourself, I'll past the code here.
    Note that you should use the "Top Gear" function on www.raidbots.com as I only added T21/960 gear to the bag list.

    I'll sim Demonic with T21 and 960 crit/mastery gear next to compare it.
    Feel free suggest any item/set/spec combination that you think would be relevant, I'd try to sim it too.





    You can change the talents by editing this line:
    talents=2221311

    demonhunter="Setiscrap"
    level=110
    race=night_elf
    region=northpole
    server=iglu
    role=attack
    professions=alchemy=800/enchanting=401
    talents=2221311
    spec=havoc
    artifact=3:0:0:0:0:1000:4:1001:4:1002:4:1003:4:1004:4:1005:4:1006:4:1007:4:1008:4:1010:1:1 011:1:1012:1:1013:1:1014:1:1015:1:1016:1:1330:1:1362:1:1493:4:1494:1:1495:1:1496:24:1630:1
    crucible=1739:1777:1006/1739:1780:1004/1739:1780:1004"

    main_hand=,id=127829,gem_id=137407/133684/137407,bonus_id=719,relic_id=3418:1612:3337/3418:1612:3337/3611:1612:3528
    off_hand=,id=127830

    ### Gear from Bags
    #
    # head=demonbane_faceguard,id=147130,bonus_id=3563/1512
    #
    #neck=pendant_of_the_stormforger,id=133767,bonus_id=1612/3412
    #
    #shoulder=delusions_of_grandeur,id=144279,bonus_id=3630
    #
    #back=demonbane_shroud,id=147128,bonus_id=3563/1512
    #
    #chest=harness_of_oppressing_dark,id=151980,bonus_id=3612/1502
    #
    #chest=demonbane_harness,id=147127,bonus_id=3563/1512
    #
    #wrist=adorned_guardians_bracers,id=133621,bonus_id=1612/1826
    #
    #hands=demonbane_gauntlets,id=147129,bonus_id=3563/1512
    #
    #hands=guileful_intruder_handguards,id=137480,bonus_id=1612/3412
    #
    #waist=cinch_of_improbable_desire,id=142196,bonus_id=1577/3412
    #
    #legs=demonbane_leggings,id=147131,bonus_id=3563/1512
    #
    #feet=tunnel_trudger_footguards,id=137397,bonus_id=1612/3412
    #
    #finger1=,id=137038,enchant_id=5427,gem_id=151580,bonus_id=3459/36
    #
    #finger2=,id=137038,enchant_id=5427,gem_id=151580,bonus_id=3459/3630
    #
    #finger1=,id=134528,enchant_id=5427,gem_id=151580,bonus_id=1612/3412
    #
    #finger2=,id=134528,enchant_id=5427,gem_id=151580,bonus_id=1612/3412
    #
    #trinket1=amanthuls_vision,id=154172,bonus_id=4213
    #
    #trinket1=eye_of_command,id=142167,bonus_id=1572/3412
    #
    #head=felreaper_hood,id=152121,bonus_id=3612/1502
    #
    #legs=felreaper_leggings,id=152122,bonus_id=3612/1502
    #
    #back=felreaper_drape,id=152119,bonus_id=3612/1502
    #
    #chest=felreaper_vest,id=152118,bonus_id=3612/1502
    #
    #trinket1=golganneths_vitality,id=154174,bonus_id=1532/3983
    #
    - - - Updated - - -
    Last edited by Shishar; 2017-12-05 at 07:46 PM.
    set is crap

  2. #2
    Mechagnome
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    There have also been undocumented set bonus changes for Havoc Demon Hunter:
    Item - Demon Hunter T21 Havoc 2P Bonus Eye Beam damage increased by 30%40%.
    Item - Demon Hunter T21 Havoc 4P Bonus When Eye Beam finishes channeling, your Haste is increased by 15%25% for 8 sec.

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=277676/u...mythic-antorus

  3. #3
    [This is without the undocumented set bonus change (30% EB DMG+15%haste changed into 40%EB Damage+25%haste)]

    Demonic with T21:


    https://imgur.com/a/zZ5Ex
    - - - Updated - - -

    Will Update the sims as soon as raidbots updates.
    Last edited by Shishar; 2017-12-05 at 07:47 PM.
    set is crap

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Lamiwen's Avatar
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    You could try combinations between Raddon, DoG, Anger and Sephuz for ST on a ~10min fight (Argus). I imagine DoG might pull ahead on that fight lenght because of Demon Reborn.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamiwen View Post
    You could try combinations between Raddon, DoG, Anger and Sephuz for ST on a ~10min fight (Argus). I imagine DoG might pull ahead on that fight lenght because of Demon Reborn.
    Legendarys -
    https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...rmtc1eBvx/simc

  6. #6
    They nerfed balance druid T21 to the point where you need 30 ilvs for it to be even worth it.

    What the hell is going on with their balance team where they can put out completely worthless tier sets.

  7. #7
    Field Marshal Lamiwen's Avatar
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    Hmm, interesting, I'm guessing if you get 2min meta and align it with Nemesis, esp if you have it up for P3 on Argus, DoG might come out ahead considering there's such a small difference.
    I don't recall there being any downtime on Argus except last phase, right?

  8. #8
    Mechagnome
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    Sorry, but this is essentially worthless data. Your T21 profile doesn't even use the correct talents - Demon Reborn is a large gain over either of the other two with Chaos Blades and T21. Moreover, the current APL doesn't actually use Eye Beam correctly with DR + CB (has no logic regarding holding the last EB before burst, that is, and even wastes an EB by using meta precombat), so one isn't going to get meaningful results even with this.

    (In case it isn't obvious, precasting EB for CB + meta, then recasting to get 16s of +25% haste during your burst window is much more impactful than how EB is being used in the OP's sims, I.e. on cd and not even using DR).

    Also the gear set you're using isn't even optimized for Chaos Cleave, lol. Like I get it's somehow become trendy to bash the T21 set, but please actually conduct a proper analysis if you are going to do so.
    Last edited by Veiled Shadow; 2017-12-05 at 07:11 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post

    (In case it isn't obvious, precasting EB for CB + meta, then recasting to get 16s of +25% haste during your burst window is much more impactful than how EB is being used in the OP's sims, I.e. on cd and not even using DR).
    I might be missing something, please excuse/correct me if I am, but if you're Demonic, how are you using CB + Meta?

  10. #10
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by ablock87 View Post
    I might be missing something, please excuse/correct me if I am, but if you're Demonic, how are you using CB + Meta?
    None of the foregoing discussion involves Demonic at all; the OP's sims are comparing a T21 and T20 setup using Chaos Blades.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal Lamiwen's Avatar
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    He said he'll be doing the demonic ones after raidbots gets patched with the new tier values...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    None of the foregoing discussion involves Demonic at all; the OP's sims are comparing a T21 and T20 setup using Chaos Blades.
    Fair enough, thanks for the clarification.

  13. #13
    [This is without the undocumented set bonus change (30% EB DMG+15%haste changed into 40%EB Damage+25%haste)]

    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    Sorry, but this is essentially worthless data. Your T21 profile doesn't even use the correct talents - Demon Reborn is a large gain over either of the other two with Chaos Blades and T21.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    Also the gear set you're using isn't even optimized for Chaos Cleave, lol. Like I get it's somehow become trendy to bash the T21 set, but please actually do a proper analysis if you are going to do so.
    Crit/Mastery Gear:

    https://imgur.com/a/b6TPr

    Crit/Mastery Gear with Arcway Set (free mastery)

    https://imgur.com/a/wZeZI

    Fixed.
    Next.
    Or tell me what "optimized" items are, your choice.
    Last edited by Shishar; 2017-12-05 at 07:46 PM.
    set is crap

  14. #14
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    Did you even read what was written in the post? Simc does not use Eye Beam correctly with T21 + Chaos Blades, to reiterate. To actually get the real value of T21 you need a custom APL as implementing the correct logic is a lot of work.

  15. #15
    So to sum it up, without counting the buff and regarding 960 mythic BIS gear:

    -demonic with T21 is better than chaos blades.

    -If you want to stay with chaos blades:
    -base mythic T20 is on par with base mythic T21
    -Crit/haste still is better than crit/mastery, even with T21

    With the buffs T21 should be better for CS build than T20, too. At least on mythic gear level.


    I wanted to do a heroic 940/945 and a normal 930 comparison, but for this I'll wait until raidbots updates.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    Did you even read what was written in the post? Simc does not use Eye Beam correctly with T21 + Chaos Blades, to reiterate. To actually get the real value of T21 you need a custom APL as implementing the correct logic is a lot of work.

    I read everything, even your post. Even though you clearly are a troll who only wants to flame others.
    You should start reading what others say first before you judge others.
    My point is to show with which ilvl you could switch to T21, not to say it's completely bad. Just to answer what many people asked last week.
    Everyone and their moms know 930 T20 can't be BIS forever.
    Everyone an their moms know SimC isn't perfect (not just T21 with CS. The whole demonic APL needs a rework. Pooling orbs e.g.)
    And everyone knows, that including such tweaks in your rotation slightly improves your dps.
    We don't need smart-asses to point this out.

    And here I go to feed the troll :/
    set is crap

  16. #16
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shishar View Post
    I read everything, even your post. Even though you clearly are a troll who only wants to flame others.
    You should start reading what others say first before you judge others.
    My point is to show with which ilvl you could switch to T21, not to say it's completely bad. Just to answer what many people asked last week.
    Everyone and their moms know 930 T20 can't be BIS forever.
    Everyone an their moms know SimC isn't perfect (not just T21 with CS. The whole demonic APL needs a rework. Pooling orbs e.g.)
    And everyone knows, that including such tweaks in your rotation slightly improves your dps.
    We don't need smart-asses to point this out.

    And here I go to feed the troll :/
    The intention is of course not to troll; points and counterpoints only serve to advance the discussion, no? Maybe the tone is a bit irritated due to the constant meming in the other thread, though, and this one's title (which inherently suggests bias). In any case, the reason that the posted numbers aren't valid is because it's not a small correction we are talking about; we're talking about an optimization that's in the order of 6%+ increase for the profile. In fact, with a proper APL you can get heroic T21 to be an increase over mythic T20 with the pre-buff set numbers.
    Last edited by Veiled Shadow; 2017-12-05 at 08:27 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    The intention is of course not to troll; points and counterpoints only serve to advance the discussion, no? Maybe the tone is a bit irritated due to the constant meming in the other thread, though, and this one's title (which inherently suggests bias). In any case, the reason that the posted numbers aren't valid is because it's not a small correction we are talking about; we're talking about an optimization that's in the order of 6%+ increase for the profile. In fact, with a proper APL you can get heroic T21 to be an increase over mythic T20.
    Okay, then I'll apologise
    I know the APL isn't perfect.
    But that's similar to how it has always been with demonic: You always had to add some DPS on top of the sims for accurate results.
    But untill we really get those items,such sims are the best approach to real results we will get.

    Edit: My bad for the title, just wanted to continue the setiscrap-discussion with actual numbers, not just rumors and guesses.
    Last edited by Shishar; 2017-12-05 at 08:36 PM.
    set is crap

  18. #18
    Appreciate your work here! Can't say if it helped with these welcomed changes, but more voices with actual data the better!

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ysho View Post
    Appreciate your work here! Can't say if it helped with these welcomed changes, but more voices with actual data the better!
    Considering the guy isn't even using the talent set that T21 is useful for, no, it didn't help. Literally every sim the guy posted he gimped T21 (either on purpose or without knowing any better). That's not to say it was any good before today's changes (and I haven't checked in on if the buffs make it ok), but it wasn't as bad as this guy was pretending it was. Even the sim with the right set of talents he used the wrong legendary pair (should be aothg+sephuz with the +15%). Raddon's was only competitive in ST with the 40% value. With the new values, I'm not sure, but regardless, every sim he posted was of a sub-optimal set up in one way or another.

  20. #20
    Is soldier on neck still go to now? Or is it mark of the claw again?

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