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  1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I am not talking about today, my Rogue has 960 EQ, 966 bagilvl (which is shown), and 5+ kills in heroic Argus, I have no problem finding groups at all now. But I am talking about the beginning of the raid tiers. People ask for curve the FIRST WEEK and defenitly the second week, for NORMAL MODE. They asked for 940 the FIRST week... that is insane! They don't realize how unlikely there is for non-mythic raiders to get 940 and curve the first week. If you had 9/9 mythic tomb and already full mythic tomb gear, this is quite achieveable, but I had like 925ilvl after Heroic Tomb, which was pretty good with 0 mythic tomb kills. You should be able to go from heroic tomb to heroic antorus, just like I went from heroic nighthold to heroic tomb (that was also a struggle but not like this).

    I think these requirements are completely insane.
    They specifically wanted to get the clear in the first week. They just didn't want to have to deal with just random players who probably didn't look up the fights/do them on PTR, and would probably cause wipes.
    The community will always find a system to try to get matched with players of equal, or greater skill than themselves. None of these systems are perfect, but it's well within their rights to use whatever system they want to find group members (within ToS of course). If they only wanted to take people with gnome puns as names they can do that.

  2. #1042
    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    That's what happens when you destroy server communities.

    Pugging was fine up until Cataclysm
    Lol. PUGging was always cancer.

  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and yet when WoW was full of those "repeated activities" it had ton more players then it has now.

    random low chance rewards are not appealing to people thats all .

    blizzard tried it - the going away from bis lists and guaranteed gear (badges/vp) and failed horribly as they cannot even sustain as many subs as they had in WoD anymore (yes legion mythic + and raids are better then WoD but everything else fails due to too much rng everywhere) .

    its simply flawed model and devs are to incompatent to admit their own mistakes.
    That's also a long time ago when everything was "fresher" and new. People tire of the same core gameplay over time. That said I think that back in the days good loot was more scarce which made it more rare and therefore more valuable (even if it was just some decent gear piece). I also think a different mindset contributed to what you say. Today's generation(s) have an other mindset.

    "random low chance rewards are not appealing to people thats all ." this is just what I said. The fun is ruined because of low chance of a reward which implies that the "fun" is the reward, not the activity it self.
    Well met!

  4. #1044
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Lol. PUGging was always cancer.
    he clearly didnt pug back then - how many pugs i remeber breaking after first 1-2 bosses and then nobobdy wanted to join those groups because everyone was hunting for loot pinatas from 1st boss.

    and no dont even for a second try to call pre-organized groups of alts of raiders from hc/mythic guilds a pug . it was never true pug .

    on the other hand people didnt feel as much pressure on alts because they could get what 7-8 slots silled with vp/badge gear so most just stayed away from raiding and had fun farming dungeons.

    trying to force people into raiding was the worst decision ever done by blizz - and in legion mythic + prove that - that there is significant audience there who given chance to avoid raiding will avoid radiin - devs are just to incompetent to admit it even though they have perfect data/proof with mythic + . They even had to artificially lower the rewards in mythic + compared to their difficulty because they knew that most of people prefer 5mans>raids.

    but they cannot go back becase it would prove once and for all that the worst cancer in wow are raids which drives ton of people away from game.

  5. #1045
    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    Pugging was fine up until Cataclysm
    On private servers, maybe?
    ALTOHOLISM is not a crime!

  6. #1046
    You didn't like that healer in dps spec? Or that lovely hunter or (insert class here) not knowing a damn thing? Tank was getting oneshot all the time? You have just had enough of the wiping part and fancy do some farm stuff? Or don't like the attitude (you can insert ilevel requirement here) of the group overall? Solution to all, from vanilla to today, make your own group, join a guild, don't pug.
    I do still however agree that the server community isn't what it used to be. That probably has its own influence on the pug culture, but when looking back at the wonderful vanilla communities, do remember that everything was still so new and exciting. It affects people's minds just a bit. A tiny little bit. And I think due to this very thing the early years' communities were good and closely knit, but the game was shit (compared to today overall. Be honest, it was. We enjoyed it because it was new and exciting.). The game has now gotten better, but the community not so much.

  7. #1047
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    he clearly didnt pug back then - how many pugs i remeber breaking after first 1-2 bosses and then nobobdy wanted to join those groups because everyone was hunting for loot pinatas from 1st boss.

    and no dont even for a second try to call pre-organized groups of alts of raiders from hc/mythic guilds a pug . it was never true pug .

    on the other hand people didnt feel as much pressure on alts because they could get what 7-8 slots silled with vp/badge gear so most just stayed away from raiding and had fun farming dungeons.

    trying to force people into raiding was the worst decision ever done by blizz - and in legion mythic + prove that - that there is significant audience there who given chance to avoid raiding will avoid radiin - devs are just to incompetent to admit it even though they have perfect data/proof with mythic + . They even had to artificially lower the rewards in mythic + compared to their difficulty because they knew that most of people prefer 5mans>raids.

    but they cannot go back becase it would prove once and for all that the worst cancer in wow are raids which drives ton of people away from game.
    This game would of died out or at the very least withered years ago if they cut raiding from it. It is IMO one of the core features that seperates it from other MMOS

  8. #1048
    The only thing "forcing" people into raiding nowadays is tier gear, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake. I am looking forward to the next expansion where choosing to do only dungeons will be a legitimate progression path.

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    The only thing "forcing" people ihownto raiding nowadays is tier gear, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake. I am looking forward to the next expansion where choosing to do only dungeons will be a legitimate progression path.
    how about good trinket from raids and easy item level upgrades from raids . as Artifact weapon is being removed , chances are high better weapons will drop from raid.
    By planning to remove tier set , Blizz just removed a tension for them self as they are pretty bad at tier set design

  10. #1050
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    The only thing "forcing" people into raiding nowadays is tier gear, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake. I am looking forward to the next expansion where choosing to do only dungeons will be a legitimate progression path.
    I don't know how many people still play PvP on any "serious" level, but utterly shafting the whole PvP gearing system might have been one of the largest contributors to the "forced into raiding." Far, far greater mistake than any of the tier sets, which have been raid-obtainable since day 1.

  11. #1051
    Quote Originally Posted by ifrah View Post
    I don't know how many people still play PvP on any "serious" level, but utterly shafting the whole PvP gearing system might have been one of the largest contributors to the "forced into raiding." Far, far greater mistake than any of the tier sets, which have been raid-obtainable since day 1.
    Why though?

    If all you do is PvP why do you need gear at all? Isn't it normalised anyway?

  12. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubulous View Post
    This game would of died out or at the very least withered years ago if they cut raiding from it. It is IMO one of the core features that seperates it from other MMOS
    and yet if it wasnt for lfr it would be as niche activity as it was in TBC.

  13. #1053
    I wouldn't say raiding in TBC was a niche activity. Higher level was certainly done by a smaller percentage of the player base, but raiding in general even just Karazhan was pretty popular.

  14. #1054
    Nah. Remember back then you couldn't raid cross realm and had no dungeon browser. Just because trade chat was spammed all day long for Karazhan groups doesn't mean more than 10% of players actually raided.

  15. #1055
    Is it time for a "if you don't like it make your own group" reply? I think it is, because it always is!

  16. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    Is it time for a "if you don't like it make your own group" reply? I think it is, because it always is!
    and it still wouldn't be wrong. If you're going to have a character that's behind the curve compared to everyone else that's applying you are going to need ways around that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    The only thing "forcing" people into raiding nowadays is tier gear, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake. I am looking forward to the next expansion where choosing to do only dungeons will be a legitimate progression path.
    Tier itself isn't a mistake. It just doesn't work well with Titanforging because of how powerful most tier bonuses are preventing you from using your TF gear even if it's 15-20 ilvls higher with ideal stats. Since TF is going to say, Tier has to leave in order for the game to remain rewarding.

    Dungeon is still going to be inferior to mythic raiding since Azerite gear and weapons can't TF.

  17. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
    Tier itself isn't a mistake. It just doesn't work well with Titanforging because of how powerful most tier bonuses are preventing you from using your TF gear even if it's 15-20 ilvls higher with ideal stats. Since TF is going to say, Tier has to leave in order for the game to remain rewarding.

    Dungeon is still going to be inferior to mythic raiding since Azerite gear and weapons can't TF.
    And in terms of effort required, TF is a hell of a lot easier than designing and testing tier bonuses.
    Do not ask questions for which you do not want the answers.

  18. #1058
    Quote Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
    Dungeon is still going to be inferior to mythic raiding since Azerite gear and weapons can't TF.
    Yes, it will still be inferior to mythic raiding. But will no longer be inferior to heroic raiding like it is now, where you're looking at a disparity of 20% or more at the same ilvl because of tier bonuses.

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