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  1. #1

    Classic wow and the vanilla feeling, thoughts about changes from a veteran player

    Hello, first short about me, skip if you like.
    I'm a 37 yo gamer from Sweden, always played rpg´s Zelda → Baldurs gate → Never winter night and of course pen and paper rpg´s. So naturally i ended up playing World of Warcraft. Had a friend in the beta an was hooked immediately. Started to play about 2 mounts after release (the game was sold out...). I played non stop for several years, after that i started to take breaks now and then, i still play by the way. In vanilla i played wow all my spare time, raided up to twins in aq40. Never got into naxx as i rerolled class before Burning crusade. I have also played a lot on private servers, first time i stumbled into one was under the cataclysm expansion (i missed the old world to much). On private servers i leveled most classes and done dungeons and raids. I have always been interested in game design and i don´t like the changes that have happened to wow over time. So i was extremely glad that Blizzard finally agrees to start up a classic server.

    Prewords
    A few thoughts on what things in wow that requires some tinkering to make a good game great. But first, for all you purist out there. I have been yelling about a classic server, i signed the petition and i do not agree that blizzard should just put up a copy of vanilla wow. I do believe that they can make it even better. And now we have that opportunity. And one more thing, the ”vanilla feeling” that we all want to have. It wont be there IF they don´t make any changes at all. Because of todays knowledge of the game and addons. It will not be as it was.
    And what is that vanilla feeling? For me it does not have to be a copy of the game as it was, the important parts is the way the game played and felt. It was a lot slower and you had to play more carefully and more tactical. I todays game, everything happens so fast. Everything is so efficient. They throw gear on you wherever you go, and you can never really do any mistakes. You don´t have to think, and there is no challenge outside mythic dungeons/raids. In vanilla you had to prepare, you had to think. In the open world, in dungeons and in raids. You didn't just log in and spamm your rotation newer caring about mana, rage, or energy. Everything in vanilla took time, and therefore you weren't in a hurry all the time. Todays game is stressful, you never have time to socialize or goof off.

    So to the changes that i think should be made.

    1 Connection to battle net app
    This should be a no brainer and i cant understand why people wouldn't want this. Of course i want to chatt with my pals about all the fun i have in classic and also to be able to link them all the great drops i get. I cant really see any downside in this.

    2 Updated resolution/graphics
    The graphic in wow has aged weary well and is still enjoyable after all this years. But it would be nice if we can have it in some higher resolution. (Ultra wide please). And also, the animations is not always as smooth as it could be, sometimes they are a bit choppy. So downsides to this? I guess for some people it destroys that nostalgia feeling and i can agree on that. But i want to play this game for many years and nostalgia wears off quickly. And when i still play after many years because its a great game, i want it smooth and in higher resolution.

    3 Server seizes
    In vanilla servers (number of players on a single server) where small, i think they should do them bigger, a lot bigger. Most private servers today have an higher player cap and most people on those servers like that. In vanilla servers used to be quite desolate, hard to find groups when leveling (after the initial rush) and not a lot of world pvp. An higher server population will help this, and will also make it more fun for most people in the long run. Only downside to this would be that gathering and crafting would be a little harder. And would be easy to fix with slightly higher respawn rates.

    4 UI improvements
    This will come as addons, so why not just make some standard improvements in the base game? If you played in vanilla i´m almost sure that you had addons like atlasloot, threat meter and stuff like that. So why not have them update the ui from the start?

    5 Leveling and questing
    This is a sensitive question, but I think that they should mix it up some. Add some more quests and remove/change others. But keep the leveling time as it where, its not a sprint its a marathon. And you are supposed to learn about the game, find friends and have fun while leveling. Therefore it should take time, and it should be hard sometimes. To be honest, most people just follows Joana's leveling guide or an questing addon. If the leveling process should have a vanilla feeling at all, they need to change some stuff.

    6 Raid difficulty and dungeon, raid release´s
    First of, the content has to come staggered. People say there was no catch up mechanics (gear wise) in vanilla. But it was, dire maul gear is way to good for molten core progression, and so is ZG and AQ20. They have to come in the right order to not trivialize the current content. And second, I really think that raids needs to be made harder. We know all the tacts and there are a lot of youtubers that will explain exactly what to do in them. Therefore I think that it would be good for the general progression and longevity if raids was toughen up just a notch. Ps Naxx was really hard in vanilla, not a lot of guild cleared it. Today on private servers several guilds clear it under a weak after opening. Make it harder please we know to much now.

    7 PVP
    Feel free to add an arena where people can show of there skills. It wont hurt the game. On some servers they had events, tournaments. And they where extremely popular. Make it so premade groups can organize own fight. Important is to make the a arena in a spot where players can watch them fight. Instead of dueling outside the capital city you get an arena where even organized team fights is possible. One of the biggest problems in pvp was that you didn't earn money at all. Throw in a few silvers in the pvp quest. So the pvp community can have some money for consumables and reapers. Most ppl hated the pvp system (ladder grind) in vanilla, an overhaul mayby?

    8 Items
    I would like the developers to take a good look at the items in the game. There are some that is way to good to exist as green/blues. They should have there quality improved and drop chance lowered. Others are just to overpowered to exist. Also I wouldn't mind if they did an overhaul of the raid gear. Add some new gear, and change some existing gear. But be sure to keep all the iconic pieces still in the game. This point I do not think will be implemented at all. Just because its an tremendous work to pull it of. But i´m also sure that the community would be happy to help finding items that are “out of order” if they would do this epic undertaking.

    9 Class balance
    Yes, the game would be better with class balance. To many specs are more or less useless. First and foremost, the classes should feel and play the same as they did, second yes there should be an hybrid tax. But hybrid classes should be playable in raids, and still not be overpowered in pvp. How to make this happened. Well I think there is a few tweaks that can be done to make this possible.
    a) Debuff slots shouldn't cap, this and only this will help an huge amount to make specs playable.
    b) High resistance/immunity's mobs has to get there resistance lowered. Yes it is a little lore breaking that fire mobs can take fire damage and so on, but it is a game, and its magic. This will open up to play more specs and not demanding a certain spec for a certain raid.
    c) Most hybrid classes has buffs, but often they are not good enough to counter the loss in raid damage. Changes like: Shaman, only enhancement can put down windfury totem. Paladin, only retri pallas can buff with might, and then buff the buffs.
    This can be done for most hybrid classes with small tweaks in the talent trees, I could list all possible changes but I think you understand.
    Changes like this would make these specs more accepted in raids, and wont break pvp where hybrids where already strong. (to counter the growth in raid dps you can remove the stacking world buffs, almost all people hated them anyways). And warriors (fury) just need a slight nerf as they to should be under the hybrid tax.
    For the pure damage classes small number changers should be enough to dethrone rogues and mages so that hunters and warlocks can have some sunshine. So please change the raid meta.

    10 Group finder tool
    Absolutely no automated group/raid finder in the game. This would be a game breaker for most classic players. But a tool like the one used in current wow (not the lfg/lfr tool) would be welcomed i think. If you don´t know what it is. Its like an billboard where you just chose what dungeon or raid and role you want to do and then list yourself. People that are looking for more players can then see you on that list and invite you. You can of course also start a group and list it, and ppl that wants to join can see your group and sign on. You of course decides if you want to invite them or not. Nothing is automated. If this is not implemented people will just do it external in addons or a discord channels so why not have it in the game. This will also clean up the chatt.

    This is the changes that I would like to see in the game when the servers opens up, they will all amplify the fun in the game without breaking the vanilla feeling. Yes it will break some of the nostalgia. But the game play and longevity will be improved. And its not for nostalgia most of us is going to play here. It is because we think its a better game.

    Classic after Naxx?
    Lots of people want us to be able to migrate to a burning crusade server and some wants vanilla forever and they are both valid option. But I think that we can do more in classic then just play trough it, this is a chance to restart this massive mmo. And take it down another road, more like it was planned to be. (Watch Blizzcon 2005 on youtube). We can get more world events in the game, maybe more dungeons, new raids, world bosses. Heck! The sky is the limit so why not more zones? It all depends on how popular it gets i presume.

    But whatever happens, if the drop the game in patch 1.1 or 1.12 or in a patch newer seen before with all he changes I mentioned or maybe even more. I will play it either way. Because I miss that vanilla gameplay, I miss the slow and tactical playstyle. I miss that things takes time to complete. I´m done getting spoon feed and stressed out in current wow, and the only reason i still play are my friends and the lore.

    I hope this could spark some great discussions.

  2. #2
    I think you are lost. This is not the forum for well thought out and meaningful posts. Clearly you have thought this through, and put forward some solid arguments for what you want. This thread leaves a lot of room for honest, calm, polite discussion, and as such, i think it should be closed.

    On a serious note, i think the biggest improvement for gear would be taking the items that where almost mandatory for certain classes being able to play a certain spec can still exist, but i would prefer them to be moved onto a bosses loot table.

    Alternatively, they could leave them as world drops, but add an identical or very similar item onto a bosses loot table. My memory is a big foggy, but i am sure i remember the bis bear druid weapon being a lvl 50 or at least low level world drop mace? i could be wrong here, but assuming i am correct, thats the kind of thing im talking about.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I think you are lost. This is not the forum for well thought out and meaningful posts. Clearly you have thought this through, and put forward some solid arguments for what you want. This thread leaves a lot of room for honest, calm, polite discussion, and as such, i think it should be closed.

    On a serious note, i think the biggest improvement for gear would be taking the items that where almost mandatory for certain classes being able to play a certain spec can still exist, but i would prefer them to be moved onto a bosses loot table.

    Alternatively, they could leave them as world drops, but add an identical or very similar item onto a bosses loot table. My memory is a big foggy, but i am sure i remember the bis bear druid weapon being a lvl 50 or at least low level world drop mace? i could be wrong here, but assuming i am correct, thats the kind of thing im talking about.
    good argument's imo

    many of these issues that he's proposing fixes for are on my and many others i have spoken to list of reasons why we wont be playing classic.

    id add on class balancing / viability and fixing exploits and botting. its 2017 for gods sake

  4. #4
    You are almost right, it was a staff.
    http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=943

    To get bear tanking to work, they need to add some raid quality gear for them.

  5. #5
    Man, there is nothing I don't agree with on this list. This is exactly what I would want.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    Hello, first short about me, skip if you like.
    I'm a 37 yo gamer from Sweden, always played rpg´s Zelda → Baldurs gate → Never winter night and of course pen and paper rpg´s. So naturally i ended up playing World of Warcraft. Had a friend in the beta an was hooked immediately. Started to play about 2 mounts after release (the game was sold out...). I played non stop for several years, after that i started to take breaks now and then, i still play by the way. In vanilla i played wow all my spare time, raided up to twins in aq40. Never got into naxx as i rerolled class before Burning crusade. I have also played a lot on private servers, first time i stumbled into one was under the cataclysm expansion (i missed the old world to much). On private servers i leveled most classes and done dungeons and raids. I have always been interested in game design and i don´t like the changes that have happened to wow over time. So i was extremely glad that Blizzard finally agrees to start up a classic server.

    Prewords
    A few thoughts on what things in wow that requires some tinkering to make a good game great. But first, for all you purist out there. I have been yelling about a classic server, i signed the petition and i do not agree that blizzard should just put up a copy of vanilla wow. I do believe that they can make it even better. And now we have that opportunity. And one more thing, the ”vanilla feeling” that we all want to have. It wont be there IF they don´t make any changes at all. Because of todays knowledge of the game and addons. It will not be as it was.
    And what is that vanilla feeling? For me it does not have to be a copy of the game as it was, the important parts is the way the game played and felt. It was a lot slower and you had to play more carefully and more tactical. I todays game, everything happens so fast. Everything is so efficient. They throw gear on you wherever you go, and you can never really do any mistakes. You don´t have to think, and there is no challenge outside mythic dungeons/raids. In vanilla you had to prepare, you had to think. In the open world, in dungeons and in raids. You didn't just log in and spamm your rotation newer caring about mana, rage, or energy. Everything in vanilla took time, and therefore you weren't in a hurry all the time. Todays game is stressful, you never have time to socialize or goof off.

    So to the changes that i think should be made.

    1 Connection to battle net app
    This should be a no brainer and i cant understand why people wouldn't want this. Of course i want to chatt with my pals about all the fun i have in classic and also to be able to link them all the great drops i get. I cant really see any downside in this.

    2 Updated resolution/graphics
    The graphic in wow has aged weary well and is still enjoyable after all this years. But it would be nice if we can have it in some higher resolution. (Ultra wide please). And also, the animations is not always as smooth as it could be, sometimes they are a bit choppy. So downsides to this? I guess for some people it destroys that nostalgia feeling and i can agree on that. But i want to play this game for many years and nostalgia wears off quickly. And when i still play after many years because its a great game, i want it smooth and in higher resolution.

    3 Server seizes
    In vanilla servers (number of players on a single server) where small, i think they should do them bigger, a lot bigger. Most private servers today have an higher player cap and most people on those servers like that. In vanilla servers used to be quite desolate, hard to find groups when leveling (after the initial rush) and not a lot of world pvp. An higher server population will help this, and will also make it more fun for most people in the long run. Only downside to this would be that gathering and crafting would be a little harder. And would be easy to fix with slightly higher respawn rates.

    4 UI improvements
    This will come as addons, so why not just make some standard improvements in the base game? If you played in vanilla i´m almost sure that you had addons like atlasloot, threat meter and stuff like that. So why not have them update the ui from the start?

    5 Leveling and questing
    This is a sensitive question, but I think that they should mix it up some. Add some more quests and remove/change others. But keep the leveling time as it where, its not a sprint its a marathon. And you are supposed to learn about the game, find friends and have fun while leveling. Therefore it should take time, and it should be hard sometimes. To be honest, most people just follows Joana's leveling guide or an questing addon. If the leveling process should have a vanilla feeling at all, they need to change some stuff.

    6 Raid difficulty and dungeon, raid release´s
    First of, the content has to come staggered. People say there was no catch up mechanics (gear wise) in vanilla. But it was, dire maul gear is way to good for molten core progression, and so is ZG and AQ20. They have to come in the right order to not trivialize the current content. And second, I really think that raids needs to be made harder. We know all the tacts and there are a lot of youtubers that will explain exactly what to do in them. Therefore I think that it would be good for the general progression and longevity if raids was toughen up just a notch. Ps Naxx was really hard in vanilla, not a lot of guild cleared it. Today on private servers several guilds clear it under a weak after opening. Make it harder please we know to much now.

    7 PVP
    Feel free to add an arena where people can show of there skills. It wont hurt the game. On some servers they had events, tournaments. And they where extremely popular. Make it so premade groups can organize own fight. Important is to make the a arena in a spot where players can watch them fight. Instead of dueling outside the capital city you get an arena where even organized team fights is possible. One of the biggest problems in pvp was that you didn't earn money at all. Throw in a few silvers in the pvp quest. So the pvp community can have some money for consumables and reapers. Most ppl hated the pvp system (ladder grind) in vanilla, an overhaul mayby?

    8 Items
    I would like the developers to take a good look at the items in the game. There are some that is way to good to exist as green/blues. They should have there quality improved and drop chance lowered. Others are just to overpowered to exist. Also I wouldn't mind if they did an overhaul of the raid gear. Add some new gear, and change some existing gear. But be sure to keep all the iconic pieces still in the game. This point I do not think will be implemented at all. Just because its an tremendous work to pull it of. But i´m also sure that the community would be happy to help finding items that are “out of order” if they would do this epic undertaking.

    9 Class balance
    Yes, the game would be better with class balance. To many specs are more or less useless. First and foremost, the classes should feel and play the same as they did, second yes there should be an hybrid tax. But hybrid classes should be playable in raids, and still not be overpowered in pvp. How to make this happened. Well I think there is a few tweaks that can be done to make this possible.
    a) Debuff slots shouldn't cap, this and only this will help an huge amount to make specs playable.
    b) High resistance/immunity's mobs has to get there resistance lowered. Yes it is a little lore breaking that fire mobs can take fire damage and so on, but it is a game, and its magic. This will open up to play more specs and not demanding a certain spec for a certain raid.
    c) Most hybrid classes has buffs, but often they are not good enough to counter the loss in raid damage. Changes like: Shaman, only enhancement can put down windfury totem. Paladin, only retri pallas can buff with might, and then buff the buffs.
    This can be done for most hybrid classes with small tweaks in the talent trees, I could list all possible changes but I think you understand.
    Changes like this would make these specs more accepted in raids, and wont break pvp where hybrids where already strong. (to counter the growth in raid dps you can remove the stacking world buffs, almost all people hated them anyways). And warriors (fury) just need a slight nerf as they to should be under the hybrid tax.
    For the pure damage classes small number changers should be enough to dethrone rogues and mages so that hunters and warlocks can have some sunshine. So please change the raid meta.

    10 Group finder tool
    Absolutely no automated group/raid finder in the game. This would be a game breaker for most classic players. But a tool like the one used in current wow (not the lfg/lfr tool) would be welcomed i think. If you don´t know what it is. Its like an billboard where you just chose what dungeon or raid and role you want to do and then list yourself. People that are looking for more players can then see you on that list and invite you. You can of course also start a group and list it, and ppl that wants to join can see your group and sign on. You of course decides if you want to invite them or not. Nothing is automated. If this is not implemented people will just do it external in addons or a discord channels so why not have it in the game. This will also clean up the chatt.

    This is the changes that I would like to see in the game when the servers opens up, they will all amplify the fun in the game without breaking the vanilla feeling. Yes it will break some of the nostalgia. But the game play and longevity will be improved. And its not for nostalgia most of us is going to play here. It is because we think its a better game.

    Classic after Naxx?
    Lots of people want us to be able to migrate to a burning crusade server and some wants vanilla forever and they are both valid option. But I think that we can do more in classic then just play trough it, this is a chance to restart this massive mmo. And take it down another road, more like it was planned to be. (Watch Blizzcon 2005 on youtube). We can get more world events in the game, maybe more dungeons, new raids, world bosses. Heck! The sky is the limit so why not more zones? It all depends on how popular it gets i presume.

    But whatever happens, if the drop the game in patch 1.1 or 1.12 or in a patch newer seen before with all he changes I mentioned or maybe even more. I will play it either way. Because I miss that vanilla gameplay, I miss the slow and tactical playstyle. I miss that things takes time to complete. I´m done getting spoon feed and stressed out in current wow, and the only reason i still play are my friends and the lore.

    I hope this could spark some great discussions.
    Be 100% honest when answering(these are the important factors, not that you are a creative swede, who played Vanilla).

    Also, these are the factors any real Veteran should consider, out of respect for the time they have invested to this product:

    1)Do you want to have a community, where the 50% goes "this sucks, this is not Vanilla"(because they/us just CAN'T ignore this huge group purists). Maybe risking a disaster of sub numbers?

    2)If you don't want to have even more whiney community, how do you think there is room for QoLs changes? Is it worth it? How will it solve the demand, without pushing either groups? Would pure Vanilla just not be the best solution(mostly of the fact that, its what people been asking for?).
    Last edited by Strifeload; 2017-12-06 at 01:42 PM.

  7. #7
    Stood in the Fire Storfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    <lots of text>
    1. Sure I guess, why not. Doesnt affect gameplay.
    2. Fine as it is. Vanilla client already support full HD widescreen. Also, new models and animations looks like shit.
    3. Agreed. Population caps was mostly dictated by hw/sw and bw restrictions anyways.
    4. Fine as it is. Get addons otherwise.
    5. Fine as it is. Get addons otherwise.
    6. Fine as it is. Guilds clearing Naxx on privateservers arent a good benchmark because they consist of the biggest tryhards, hardly a fair benchmark of the "ordinairy pleb".
    7. Fine as it is. HWL/GM grind is suppose to be the hardest grind ever in the history of WoW. Dont mess with this.
    8. Fine as it is. The sometimes wierd itemization of vanilla had a charm in itself. Super effective itembudgeted items in retail streamlines the game into an un-interesting mechanized sterile epic factory.
    9. Fine as it is. the BACKBONE of an mmorpg is uniqe classes and races where choices matter. Everything isnt fair. Not every class should have a fair fight against any other class.
    10. Groupfinders are what kills MMORPGs. Period.
    “If quantum mechanics hasn’t profoundly shocked you, you haven’t understood it yet. Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real.” – Niels Bohr

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  8. #8
    OP has made some very good points and has thought this through well.

    The only thing I'd say though, is that you are proposing we get what basically amounts to Pristine servers... not actually the vanilla experience.

    At the very least what you suggest is more like Vanilla Remastered or Vanilla 2.0.

    That experience is different to a lot of people... and changing anything about the game at all risks changing aspects of the game someone truly loved.

    I'm, not saying what you proposed isn't a good thing... just that it isn't what many started the movement for. You have to remember... what got Blizzard to finally offer this were the 280,189 petition signatures of mostly Nostralius Begins players. Now that it is coming, we have a lot of people who didn't care enough about it "then" to fight for it trying to mold how the game is re-created today. As you might expect, that 1/4 of a million people + are worried that the result will be more like they game they don't care to play today, than the Vanilla they are passionate about.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by AuthurDent View Post
    OP has made some very good points and has thought this through well.

    The only thing I'd say though, is that you are proposing we get what basically amounts to Pristine servers... not actually the vanilla experience.

    At the very least what you suggest is more like Vanilla Remastered or Vanilla 2.0.

    That experience is different to a lot of people... and changing anything about the game at all risks changing aspects of the game someone truly loved.

    I'm, not saying what you proposed isn't a good thing... just that it isn't what many started the movement for. You have to remember... what got Blizzard to finally offer this were the 280,189 petition signatures of mostly Nostralius Begins players. Now that it is coming, we have a lot of people who didn't care enough about it "then" to fight for it trying to mold how the game is re-created today. As you might expect, that 1/4 of a million people + are worried that the result will be more like they game they don't care to play today, than the Vanilla they are passionate about.
    I was one of them that signed the petition.
    And if you would log on to a private server you will see that the cummunety is devided there aswell. People on private servers are discussing all the changes they want to see in wow classic. And there´s alot of them that want to see changes, and this is ppl that actually playes on private servers today.
    Alot of ppl that signed that petition wherent purist, they as me just missing the old playstyle.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Storfan View Post
    1. Sure I guess, why not. Doesnt affect gameplay.
    2. Fine as it is. Vanilla client already support full HD widescreen. Also, new models and animations looks like shit.
    3. Agreed. Population caps was mostly dictated by hw/sw and bw restrictions anyways.
    4. Fine as it is. Get addons otherwise.
    5. Fine as it is. Get addons otherwise.
    6. Fine as it is. Guilds clearing Naxx on privateservers arent a good benchmark because they consist of the biggest tryhards, hardly a fair benchmark of the "ordinairy pleb".
    7. Fine as it is. HWL/GM grind is suppose to be the hardest grind ever in the history of WoW. Dont mess with this.
    8. Fine as it is. The sometimes wierd itemization of vanilla had a charm in itself. Super effective itembudgeted items in retail streamlines the game into an un-interesting mechanized sterile epic factory.
    9. Fine as it is. the BACKBONE of an mmorpg is uniqe classes and races where choices matter. Everything isnt fair. Not every class should have a fair fight against any other class.
    10. Groupfinders are what kills MMORPGs. Period.
    7. And i dont say it shouldn't be hard and take a long time. What i say is open up for more ways to pvp and give them some silver for there troubles.
    8. There where some "broken" items that in todays standard would be considered an abuse. And in some cases are many speccs hindered just because there is no proper loot for them anywhere. (Like for guardian druids)
    9. And i agree. I liked that pvp was like a game of rock paper scissor. And that should still be the case even if the move some buffs to be exlusive for the speccs that should have them.
    10. Discord and addons will work as group finder. Thats why i rather want that "billbord" system they have now. I hate automated groupfinder. And you could ofcourse play the game without that addon or using discord. But you wont find alot of groups forming in world chatt.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    Be 100% honest when answering(these are the important factors, not that you are a creative swede, who played Vanilla).

    Also, these are the factors any real Veteran should consider, out of respect for the time they have invested to this product:

    1)Do you want to have a community, where the 50% goes "this sucks, this is not Vanilla"(because they/us just CAN'T ignore this huge group purists). Maybe risking a disaster of sub numbers?

    2)If you don't want to have even more whiney community, how do you think there is room for QoLs changes? Is it worth it? How will it solve the demand, without pushing either groups? Would pure Vanilla just not be the best solution(mostly of the fact that, its what people been asking for?).

    Good questions
    1. The group of purist aint that big, but they are loud. Most ppl not wanting any changes are afraid that blizz will f*ck it up if they start changing things. But what they forget is that this is a new team that hopefully chare our core values. If they dont, we are screwed enyway. But if the team has the same philosophy that blizzard had 2005. Well then thats a team i thrust to make some small changes.

    2. Everyone will newer be happy, but meaby they can make most ppl somewhat pleased. Short sighted it could be best to let it out pure, but for longevity i think they should make some changes. Is it a fact that most ppkl asked for a pure version of vannila? I belive that alot of them that asked for vanilla servers wanted the playstyle of vanilla back more then some nostalgia trip. As i wrote above, ppl on private servers now discusses the changes the want to see in classic. And this is players that actually plays vanilla right now.
    Last edited by TheMork; 2017-12-06 at 06:08 PM.

  10. #10
    Mechagnome Mullet Man's Avatar
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    I believe there are competing factors.

    First, should Blizzard release Classic to be an exact replica of Vanilla for historical and preservation purposes?
    Just as players have the option to purchase an NES and Super Mario Bros to play the game exactly as it was in 1985, many players want this offered for WoW.
    Zero changes, even to fix bugs, with the release of patches to match the historical 1.0 to 1.12 release cadence.

    Second, we have a group of players that would like Classic to the "best" version of Vanilla with minimal changes.
    Probably 1.12.1, but this is debatable depending on the user.
    With the original content released on a schedule. Similar to Nost and other popular private servers.
    No changes to gameplay or graphics. Only major bug fixes applied.

    Third, we have a group that would like to see Classic to be a slightly upgraded version of Vanilla.
    Updated graphics, UI/API updates, major and minor bug fixes, but no gameplay changes.

    Fourth, this is the group that wants to see Classic with full a suite of changes.
    Class balance, re-tuned bosses, new quests, new content, etc...

    Finally, I don't think most players fall cleanly into one specific category.
    For example, I would like like to have the Second option and Fourth option available to play.

    I always want a version of vanilla to play as it was, but I would like to see what Blizzard could do if they rebooted the series and started over with a Vanilla mindest for all future content releases. But if they screw it up again, I want to have original vanilla.

    What will be interesting is to see which category Blizzard falls into.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    I

    1. The group of purist aint that big, but they are loud. Most ppl not wanting any changes are afraid that blizz will f*ck it up if they start changing things. But what they forget is that this is a new team that hopefully chare our core values. If they dont, we are screwed enyway. But if the team has the same philosophy that blizzard had 2005. Well then thats a team i thrust to make some small changes.

    2. Everyone will newer be happy, but meaby they can make most ppl somewhat pleased. Short sighted it could be best to let it out pure, but for longevity i think they should make some changes. Is it a fact that most ppkl asked for a pure version of vannila? I belive that alot of them that asked for vanilla servers wanted the playstyle of vanilla back more then some nostalgia trip. As i wrote above, ppl on private servers now discusses the changes the want to see in classic. And this is players that actually plays vanilla right now.
    The problem is how to make "most people pleased?" That is even if we can agree on what most people want, which we don't.
    See, I already have a completely different perception of what's being discussed on private servers right now and what the "majority" there agree on.
    You have an agenda, that is clear.
    However, what constitutes a small change to you can pretty much spoil the experience for someone else.

    I'm of the ones who believe that my favorite qol change is no more important than yours. Therefore, the less is better. I suppose, you can call me a purist.

    It's a tiring topic. I realize you put a lot of work into this thread; still a very tiring topic. Chances are we won't know what exact implementation of Vanilla it will be for some time, but when they say "authentic", I have no reason to not believe them at this point.
    Last edited by Eveningforest; 2017-12-06 at 06:41 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    1 Connection to battle net app
    This should be a no brainer and i cant understand why people wouldn't want this. Of course i want to chatt with my pals about all the fun i have in classic and also to be able to link them all the great drops i get. I cant really see any downside in this.
    Indifferent. That's probably going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    2 Updated resolution/graphics
    The graphic in wow has aged weary well and is still enjoyable after all this years. But it would be nice if we can have it in some higher resolution. (Ultra wide please). And also, the animations is not always as smooth as it could be, sometimes they are a bit choppy. So downsides to this? I guess for some people it destroys that nostalgia feeling and i can agree on that. But i want to play this game for many years and nostalgia wears off quickly. And when i still play after many years because its a great game, i want it smooth and in higher resolution.
    The downside is that the modern models are butt ugly and animation is awful. Especially for gnome. They look like undersized pandarens. If Blizzard can implement an option for the new models without compromising the original, then ok. However, the current WoW shows that they can't do that.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    3 Server seizes
    In vanilla servers (number of players on a single server) where small, i think they should do them bigger, a lot bigger. Most private servers today have an higher player cap and most people on those servers like that. In vanilla servers used to be quite desolate, hard to find groups when leveling (after the initial rush) and not a lot of world pvp. An higher server population will help this, and will also make it more fun for most people in the long run. Only downside to this would be that gathering and crafting would be a little harder. And would be easy to fix with slightly higher respawn rates.
    That's an awful fix that destroys many aspects of the game starting with the economy when the spawn rates for resources are high.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    4 UI improvements
    This will come as addons, so why not just make some standard improvements in the base game? If you played in vanilla i´m almost sure that you had addons like atlasloot, threat meter and stuff like that. So why not have them update the ui from the start?
    Then install the addons you want. You know well enough that addons in vanilla were never perfect, AtlasLoot was not accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    5 Leveling and questing
    This is a sensitive question, but I think that they should mix it up some. Add some more quests and remove/change others. But keep the leveling time as it where, its not a sprint its a marathon. And you are supposed to learn about the game, find friends and have fun while leveling. Therefore it should take time, and it should be hard sometimes. To be honest, most people just follows Joana's leveling guide or an questing addon. If the leveling process should have a vanilla feeling at all, they need to change some stuff.
    Do you want vanilla or something else? There is already a revamped world.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    6 Raid difficulty and dungeon, raid release´s
    First of, the content has to come staggered. People say there was no catch up mechanics (gear wise) in vanilla. But it was, dire maul gear is way to good for molten core progression, and so is ZG and AQ20. They have to come in the right order to not trivialize the current content. And second, I really think that raids needs to be made harder. We know all the tacts and there are a lot of youtubers that will explain exactly what to do in them. Therefore I think that it would be good for the general progression and longevity if raids was toughen up just a notch. Ps Naxx was really hard in vanilla, not a lot of guild cleared it. Today on private servers several guilds clear it under a weak after opening. Make it harder please we know to much now.
    Again. Do you want vanilla or something else? Also, are you really comparing private servers with their weird tuning and the official one?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    7 PVP
    Feel free to add an arena where people can show of there skills. It wont hurt the game. On some servers they had events, tournaments. And they where extremely popular. Make it so premade groups can organize own fight. Important is to make the a arena in a spot where players can watch them fight. Instead of dueling outside the capital city you get an arena where even organized team fights is possible. One of the biggest problems in pvp was that you didn't earn money at all. Throw in a few silvers in the pvp quest. So the pvp community can have some money for consumables and reapers. Most ppl hated the pvp system (ladder grind) in vanilla, an overhaul mayby?
    Arenas, small scale "competitive" PvP literally the reason why we have total homogenization of classes today. Vanilla was never tuned for the small scale PvP. 1v1 world PvP world as scissors-rock-paper.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    8 Items
    I would like the developers to take a good look at the items in the game. There are some that is way to good to exist as green/blues. They should have there quality improved and drop chance lowered. Others are just to overpowered to exist. Also I wouldn't mind if they did an overhaul of the raid gear. Add some new gear, and change some existing gear. But be sure to keep all the iconic pieces still in the game. This point I do not think will be implemented at all. Just because its an tremendous work to pull it of. But i´m also sure that the community would be happy to help finding items that are “out of order” if they would do this epic undertaking.
    Still doesn't sound like you want vanilla.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    9 Class balance
    Yes, the game would be better with class balance. To many specs are more or less useless. First and foremost, the classes should feel and play the same as they did, second yes there should be an hybrid tax. But hybrid classes should be playable in raids, and still not be overpowered in pvp. How to make this happened. Well I think there is a few tweaks that can be done to make this possible.
    a) Debuff slots shouldn't cap, this and only this will help an huge amount to make specs playable.
    b) High resistance/immunity's mobs has to get there resistance lowered. Yes it is a little lore breaking that fire mobs can take fire damage and so on, but it is a game, and its magic. This will open up to play more specs and not demanding a certain spec for a certain raid.
    c) Most hybrid classes has buffs, but often they are not good enough to counter the loss in raid damage. Changes like: Shaman, only enhancement can put down windfury totem. Paladin, only retri pallas can buff with might, and then buff the buffs.
    This can be done for most hybrid classes with small tweaks in the talent trees, I could list all possible changes but I think you understand.
    Changes like this would make these specs more accepted in raids, and wont break pvp where hybrids where already strong. (to counter the growth in raid dps you can remove the stacking world buffs, almost all people hated them anyways). And warriors (fury) just need a slight nerf as they to should be under the hybrid tax.
    For the pure damage classes small number changers should be enough to dethrone rogues and mages so that hunters and warlocks can have some sunshine. So please change the raid meta.
    I think you misunderstand how vanilla worked in terms of class balance. The concept when every spec of every class was equally good in every activity wasn't on table. You again asking for homogenization. You also suggest removing or making irrelevant entire mechanics like resistances. How is it reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    10 Group finder tool
    Absolutely no automated group/raid finder in the game. This would be a game breaker for most classic players. But a tool like the one used in current wow (not the lfg/lfr tool) would be welcomed i think. If you don´t know what it is. Its like an billboard where you just chose what dungeon or raid and role you want to do and then list yourself. People that are looking for more players can then see you on that list and invite you. You can of course also start a group and list it, and ppl that wants to join can see your group and sign on. You of course decides if you want to invite them or not. Nothing is automated. If this is not implemented people will just do it external in addons or a discord channels so why not have it in the game. This will also clean up the chatt.
    There is this arcane tool, called chat.

    I'm also not sure what was the point of mentioning that you're supposedly a "vanilla veteran" (I cringe when I see this title). There were plenty people in vanilla who didn't like the way it worked, this is the reason changes happen. The once who liked it the way it was originally designed were left behind. There is already a game that gives you everything you want, it's called Legion.


    And since we're sharing our own opinions here. That's not a good bait topic.
    Last edited by Wiedzemir; 2017-12-06 at 06:42 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by DeleteMyAccountMMOCSUX View Post

    I always want a version of vanilla to play as it was, but I would like to see what Blizzard could do if they rebooted the series and started over with a Vanilla mindest for all future content releases. But if they screw it up again, I want to have original vanilla.
    And with some of the changes currently seen on PTR, they seem to be headed more in the Pristine server direction rather than further away from it.
    It looks promising.

    But yes, Classic should be a museum piece for people to be able to return to. Alterations (in whichever direction) are best kept to Live Wow.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post
    10. Discord and addons will work as group finder. Thats why i rather want that "billbord" system they have now. I hate automated groupfinder. And you could ofcourse play the game without that addon or using discord. But you wont find alot of groups forming in world chatt.
    This point has always been the most important point to me, being that I believe it is one of the most important factors in what would affect the server community. You would in fact find tons of groups forming in world chat. Almost constantly really. On the server I play on, it is the main tool for finding groups. Not just for dungeons and raids, but also for group quests all over the world. No addons are really needed for this.

  15. #15
    High Overlord Vorrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post



    Good questions
    1. The group of purist aint that big, but they are loud. Most ppl not wanting any changes are afraid that blizz will f*ck it up if they start changing things. But what they forget is that this is a new team that hopefully chare our core values. If they dont, we are screwed enyway. But if the team has the same philosophy that blizzard had 2005. Well then thats a team i thrust to make some small changes.

    2. Everyone will newer be happy, but meaby they can make most ppl somewhat pleased. Short sighted it could be best to let it out pure, but for longevity i think they should make some changes. Is it a fact that most ppkl asked for a pure version of vannila? I belive that alot of them that asked for vanilla servers wanted the playstyle of vanilla back more then some nostalgia trip. As i wrote above, ppl on private servers now discusses the changes the want to see in classic. And this is players that actually plays vanilla right now.
    -CITATION NEEDED-

    I don't get why you people even want to have an input on the game since YOU will be the ones not playing for more than 2 weeks to a month. The purists will be the ones playing and should be listened to.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiedzemir View Post
    Indifferent. That's probably going to happen.

    2 Updated resolution/graphics
    The downside is that the modern models are butt ugly and animation is awful. Especially for gnome. They look like undersized pandarens. If Blizzard can implement an option for the new models without compromising the original, then ok. However, the current WoW shows that they can't do that.

    Only thing i ask for is resolution and smother animations. I too prefer the old models.


    3 Server seizes
    That's an awful fix that destroys many aspects of the game starting with the economy when the spawn rates for resources are high.

    But with an high population the demand will also be higher.

    4 UI improvements
    Then install the addons you want. You know well enough that addons in vanilla were never perfect, AtlasLoot was not accurate.

    I could do that, no problem. Its just a bit silly.

    5 Leveling and questing
    Do you want vanilla or something else? There is already a revamped world.

    As i wrote, if they dont change it (and i dont think they will) it will not be the vanilla feeling

    6 Raid difficulty and dungeon, raid release´s
    Again. Do you want vanilla or something else? Also, are you really comparing private servers with their weird tuning and the official one?

    It has nothing to do with tuning on private servers. Its about the knowledge we have today about raid encounters and gearing.

    7 PVP
    Arenas, small scale "competitive" PvP literally the reason why we have total homogenization of classes today. Vanilla was never tuned for the small scale PvP. 1v1 world PvP world as scissors-rock-paper.

    I like that it was rock paper scissors. And its ok and i dont want them to change classes power in pvp, and i dont write enything that will have impact on pvp balance.

    8 Items
    Still doesn't sound like you want vanilla.

    Why would i want outright broken items in the game?


    9 Class balance
    I think you misunderstand how vanilla worked in terms of class balance. The concept when every spec of every class was equally good in every activity wasn't on table. You again asking for homogenization. You also suggest removing or making irrelevant entire mechanics like resistances. How is it reasonable?

    Im not. Im asking for the opposite. By separating speccs in classes more so that uniqe speccs have uniqe buffs make that way make them more disirable in pve but have near no impact at all in pvp. And i also say that they should keep the hybrid tax. And resistances, i hope it was pretty clear that it was mob resistsances i was speaking about. Why not be able to play fire mage in mc and bwl?


    10 Group finder tool
    There is this arcane tool, called chat.
    And it will not be used, as ppl will use addons or discords instead.

    I'm also not sure what was the point of mentioning that you're supposedly a "vanilla veteran" (I cringe when I see this title). There were plenty people in vanilla who didn't like the way it worked, this is the reason changes happen. The once who liked it the way it was originally designed were left behind. There is already a game that gives you everything you want, it's called Legion.

    Legion gives me nothing of what i want in an mmo. And im not saying that im a "vanilla veteran", i say that im a veteran player. As in. I have alot of experience in rpg games and world of warcraft.


    And since we're sharing our own opinions here. That's not a good bait topic.
    I totally agree.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorrum View Post
    -CITATION NEEDED-

    I don't get why you people even want to have an input on the game since YOU will be the ones not playing for more than 2 weeks to a month. The purists will be the ones playing and should be listened to.
    I have been playing on private vanilla servers for 6 or 7 years...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluespiderman57 View Post
    This point has always been the most important point to me, being that I believe it is one of the most important factors in what would affect the server community. You would in fact find tons of groups forming in world chat. Almost constantly really. On the server I play on, it is the main tool for finding groups. Not just for dungeons and raids, but also for group quests all over the world. No addons are really needed for this.
    You could be totaly right about this. World chatt is great for this. But the servers will get a boom in players when thay open up and that means that more addons will be made. And if they are good ppl will use them. Atleast that is what i belive. But you could be right, we will have to see. What is importent is NO automated group finder.

  17. #17
    1. I think everyone expects that to be the case
    2. Personally i rather they didn't, but if they did it wouldn't stop me from playing.
    3. Agreed
    4. I would rather they did not waste dev/resources on this since as you indicated a suitable addon works to achieve it. I may be biased but i would prefer to play classic sooner rather than later, and not have their small dev team spend time on baking in addon features, when we can just download the addon if we want that feature.
    5. I really don't think most people will follow a guide. I think it is fine the way it was. Myself, I dont expect to hit 60 for 1-2 months.
    6. Im curious if anyone has any data showing that the tuning used for private servers is close to vanilla? I dont play on private servers so I could not judge that. I just hear both sides of the coin, some say they are 'shit' and the tuning is garbage, others say its almost perfectly like vanilla was. I've even seen some people say that Blizzard themselves have officially said Nost was very close to perfect, but I cannot find that quoted anywhere.
    7. I think it should stay the way it was, but I have no interest just like in vanilla to go for that rank so my opinion is moot.
    8. No comment
    9. No comment on this since I dont know enough about all the implications that could occur.
    10. I wouldn't want to see this personally.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheMork View Post

    I have been playing on private vanilla servers for 6 or 7 years...
    So all these changes you want dont really matter since you seem to enjoy playing vanilla as close as private servers have been able to replicate it?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storfan View Post
    1. Sure I guess, why not. Doesnt affect gameplay.
    2. Fine as it is. Vanilla client already support full HD widescreen. Also, new models and animations looks like shit.
    3. Agreed. Population caps was mostly dictated by hw/sw and bw restrictions anyways.
    4. Fine as it is. Get addons otherwise.
    5. Fine as it is. Get addons otherwise.
    6. Fine as it is. Guilds clearing Naxx on privateservers arent a good benchmark because they consist of the biggest tryhards, hardly a fair benchmark of the "ordinairy pleb".
    7. Fine as it is. HWL/GM grind is suppose to be the hardest grind ever in the history of WoW. Dont mess with this.
    8. Fine as it is. The sometimes wierd itemization of vanilla had a charm in itself. Super effective itembudgeted items in retail streamlines the game into an un-interesting mechanized sterile epic factory.
    9. Fine as it is. the BACKBONE of an mmorpg is uniqe classes and races where choices matter. Everything isnt fair. Not every class should have a fair fight against any other class.
    10. Groupfinders are what kills MMORPGs. Period.
    Can’t agree more good sir!

  19. #19
    Elemental Lord Yggdrasil's Avatar
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    I read these things but noticed they weren't in vanilla. Which sums up why it shouldn't be here.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by dumpsterbum View Post

    So all these changes you want dont really matter since you seem to enjoy playing vanilla as close as private servers have been able to replicate it?
    Thats right, but it will determine what class i will main, if i will just powerlevel and if i will play it now and then or nonstop. But i will play it regardless if the change nothing or alot.

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