Rogue raiding spec?

[Sinbad101]

http://simulationcraft.org/reports/T21_Raid.html

Does this mean Outlaw is the best on average? I mean I like outlaw, but i don't wanna use it to raid. I use it for EVERYTHING BUT raiding.

I like to use Assassination, it's so ez that i can focus on mechanics, and i need to b/c i suck at mechanics. This kinda sucks if it's true.

[elfporn]

Not likely. Keep in mind those sims are with raid gear only. The gear is far from optimized for any class.

[glowpipe]

Are you in a cutting edge mythic guild going for world first ? if not, then play whatever you like. I played assassination throughout all of ToS. it was the bottom dps spec along with outlaw. I was still always top 3 dps in all fights i did. A poor class mastered is always better than a master class poorly played. the other person i fought the top of the meters with played BM. Also on bottom of the logs.

[Critical92]

I say you are lying or you were massively overgearing your raidmembers. As Sub it is true that you can be top 3, but only when you cheese the individual boss with specific legys or get good uptime of bossbuffs like mistress pufferfish in progress(with current powerlevel fish is not possible anymore)

Even with optimised sims rogues would be in a bad spot, because all others need to be optimised as well.
Fact is rogues scale for the first time really bad. Before Legion rogues started weak and became gods. Now we were always middle to slightly under the top (except some crazy fights like mistress and host but only when your raid allows it like let bone shields stay etc)

Edit: i am speaking of mythic not hc cheese fiesta.

[Skylarking]

Are you in a cutting edge mythic guild going for world first ? if not, then play whatever you like. I played assassination throughout all of ToS. it was the bottom dps spec along with outlaw. I was still always top 3 dps in all fights i did. A poor class mastered is always better than a master class poorly played. the other person i fought the top of the meters with played BM. Also on bottom of the logs.

This just tells me that the people you play with must be horrible at playing their class, so the ones with the easiest rotation will be top dps.

[glowpipe]

This just tells me that the people you play with must be horrible at playing their class, so the ones with the easiest rotation will be top dps.

You aren't wrong. There is no way me or the hunter should be top. But to answer the easy rotation thing. The hunter usualy get legendary parses and i get 80-90 parses. With the ocasional fuck up here and there. So i feel like we are maybe doing something somewhat correct

[Sinbad101]

Hey,

Excuse me..

Can All the negative people plz Fck off? Nobody likes a forum jerk. Only post useful or positive things here please. Thank you

[elfporn]

Hey,

Excuse me..

Can All the negative people plz Fck off? Nobody likes a forum jerk. Only post useful or positive things here please. Thank you

Except we did post useful things like the answer to your question. And admonished you for panicking about sim hype.

Sims have becoms ballpark estimates because of m+ gear.

[Demeia]

I say you are lying or you were massively overgearing your raidmembers. As Sub it is true that you can be top 3, but only when you cheese the individual boss with specific legys or get good uptime of bossbuffs like mistress pufferfish in progress(with current powerlevel fish is not possible anymore)

Even with optimised sims rogues would be in a bad spot, because all others need to be optimised as well.
Fact is rogues scale for the first time really bad. Before Legion rogues started weak and became gods. Now we were always middle to slightly under the top (except some crazy fights like mistress and host but only when your raid allows it like let bone shields stay etc)

Edit: i am speaking of mythic not hc cheese fiesta.

But the problem with your kind of comment is always the same on this board: people who raid in mythic guilds tend very rarely ask the OPs kind of question. I'm certain I would be terrible in your guild--I'm assassin for god's sake, I'm over fifty, and I'm terrible at studying boss fights before actually doing them--but I do great in my piddly little raid. Yes, of course we're bad--so are most of the guilds in the world.

I'm with Glowpipe's answer: if you aren't in a top guild, why worry about it? There's too much time spent stressing over this kind of thing. If we could just switch specs, like the old days, it would be a different question but there's too much focus on one spec in Legion so you're better off playing what you like.

[Tusq]

I think we should stop the "If you're not in a world first guild you should play what you like to play." (If you don't do mythic, it is fine though.)

There is LOTS of guilds out there (My bet would be most top1500), that brings the specc over a player on certain progression bosses, and you CAN be benched if you're playing a useless spec. If some classes EASE a fight by a large margin your raidleader will bring that class. During ToS we (rogues) were really useful cause it was a soakfest and that made rogues really popular. And Subtlety was super strong too.

But if you do mythic raids i'd still say you can worry about what spec you play. It's not a world first only matter.

[britishbubba]

From a spec mechanical pov, you'll be fine in antorus playing outlaw or sub. Sub is going to shine on a few specific bosses due to shuriken combo, but the rest of the fights is going to come down to which spec you can play correctly and have the best gear for. Outlaw won't really out pace sub on single target until you have 1) enough people in your raid to proc pantheon empowerments and 2) have a golgeneth's yourself. Even then, less than 100k difference is unlikely to matter overall.

However, if you want to just pick one spec and play it for all bosses, it's going to be sub. If you don't mind keeping two weapons and two gear sets up, sub and outlaw look to be good options for the fights this tier.

You can clear mythic playing literally any of the specs in the game. The incredibly small differences in throughput between dps specs in a class is rarely going to matter outside of specific circumstances where the mechanics of a spec shine (things like destro havoc, sub shuriken combo, shadow multi dot, etc) and taking the player that messes up the least is going to be better at mechanics is going to be more favorable than taking someone that does 1% more dps theoretically, yet dies to mechanics or kills the raid by blowing up bombs on imonar.

I like to use Assassination, it's so ez that i can focus on mechanics, and i need to b/c i suck at mechanics. This kinda sucks if it's true.

Assassination is going to continue to be niche until they make vendetta a buff instead of a debuff. It's just too limiting of a cooldown.

To answer your original question. Yes, according to sims outlaw will be the best on average. No, you do not have to play outlaw for raid. Sub is going to be better on most likely at least eonar, high command and portal keeper (unless you need more aoe to actually kill the adds). This of course differs depending on strats and the roll that you're fulfilling. If you're being brought to just tunnel the boss (some melee do get to do this) then just play whatever. Assassination is fine if it gets to tunnel, you just won't get the dps increase that shuriken combo gives.

There is LOTS of guilds out there (My bet would be most top1500), that brings the specc over a player on certain progression bosses, and you CAN be benched if you're playing a useless spec. If some classes EASE a fight by a large margin your raidleader will bring that class. During ToS we (rogues) were really useful cause it was a soakfest and that made rogues really popular. And Subtlety was super strong too.

I've raided everywhere from top 2,000 to top 50 and this practice is not common place. There's the odd guild that gets it in their head that these very minor differences actually matter. Guild management that actually understands that player skill is more important that spec choice would not do this. You will never be in a guild where everyone in it is of the same skill level. Those guilds do not exist.

Top 1500 as you "bet" in t20 was killing maiden, with most above that killing avatar, but not kil'jaeden. Once guilds had farmed out a lot of mythic gear from the previous bosses, the entire thing of class stacking no longer mattered. The bosses were nerfed, health pools were higher, damage was higher. My guild killed avatar with 2 rogues and with boomkins soaking the touches. A far cry from the begining of the instance where you NEEDED five rogues to soak all the touches as no one else really could.

Top 1500 is not as elitist as you think it is. Even a month into the tier, class stacking is just not important, and mid level guilds that would choose to follow your idea of how to run a guild would very quickly run themselves out of players because those players could go to any other guild at the same level and not face the same misplaced elitism.

sub 5% differences just do not matter anymore. It did in WoD when you had fights like butcher that were so tightly tuned that the last inkling of dps you could eek out really mattered, but that hasn't really happened in legion beyond the first few weeks of nighthold and ToV.

[ymirsson]

I think we should stop the "If you're not in a world first guild you should play what you like to play." (If you don't do mythic, it is fine though.)

There is LOTS of guilds out there (My bet would be most top1500), that brings the specc over a player on certain progression bosses, and you CAN be benched if you're playing a useless spec. If some classes EASE a fight by a large margin your raidleader will bring that class. During ToS we (rogues) were really useful cause it was a soakfest and that made rogues really popular. And Subtlety was super strong too.

But if you do mythic raids i'd still say you can worry about what spec you play. It's not a world first only matter.

This is called useless elitism. For about 99% of the players, personal skill is a much more contributing facter than class, spec or legendaries.

[Sinbad101]

From a spec mechanical pov, you'll be fine in antorus playing outlaw or sub. Sub is going to shine on a few specific bosses due to shuriken combo, but the rest of the fights is going to come down to which spec you can play correctly and have the best gear for. Outlaw won't really out pace sub on single target until you have 1) enough people in your raid to proc pantheon empowerments and 2) have a golgeneth's yourself. Even then, less than 100k difference is unlikely to matter overall.

However, if you want to just pick one spec and play it for all bosses, it's going to be sub. If you don't mind keeping two weapons and two gear sets up, sub and outlaw look to be good options for the fights this tier.

You can clear mythic playing literally any of the specs in the game. The incredibly small differences in throughput between dps specs in a class is rarely going to matter outside of specific circumstances where the mechanics of a spec shine (things like destro havoc, sub shuriken combo, shadow multi dot, etc) and taking the player that messes up the least is going to be better at mechanics is going to be more favorable than taking someone that does 1% more dps theoretically, yet dies to mechanics or kills the raid by blowing up bombs on imonar.



Assassination is going to continue to be niche until they make vendetta a buff instead of a debuff. It's just too limiting of a cooldown.

To answer your original question. Yes, according to sims outlaw will be the best on average. No, you do not have to play outlaw for raid. Sub is going to be better on most likely at least eonar, high command and portal keeper (unless you need more aoe to actually kill the adds). This of course differs depending on strats and the roll that you're fulfilling. If you're being brought to just tunnel the boss (some melee do get to do this) then just play whatever. Assassination is fine if it gets to tunnel, you just won't get the dps increase that shuriken combo gives.



I've raided everywhere from top 2,000 to top 50 and this practice is not common place. There's the odd guild that gets it in their head that these very minor differences actually matter. Guild management that actually understands that player skill is more important that spec choice would not do this. You will never be in a guild where everyone in it is of the same skill level. Those guilds do not exist.

Top 1500 as you "bet" in t20 was killing maiden, with most above that killing avatar, but not kil'jaeden. Once guilds had farmed out a lot of mythic gear from the previous bosses, the entire thing of class stacking no longer mattered. The bosses were nerfed, health pools were higher, damage was higher. My guild killed avatar with 2 rogues and with boomkins soaking the touches. A far cry from the begining of the instance where you NEEDED five rogues to soak all the touches as no one else really could.

Top 1500 is not as elitist as you think it is. Even a month into the tier, class stacking is just not important, and mid level guilds that would choose to follow your idea of how to run a guild would very quickly run themselves out of players because those players could go to any other guild at the same level and not face the same misplaced elitism.

sub 5% differences just do not matter anymore. It did in WoD when you had fights like butcher that were so tightly tuned that the last inkling of dps you could eek out really mattered, but that hasn't really happened in legion beyond the first few weeks of nighthold and ToV.

But i hate playing sub..

- - - Updated - - -

Except we did post useful things like the answer to your question. And admonished you for panicking about sim hype.

Sims have becoms ballpark estimates because of m+ gear.

You, actually seem to be the only one who brought up a useful point. So i went and looked at the gear of each of the rogues in the simulation. they all had shit stats, but funny enough the Outlaw had the worse stat optimization.


As for my original concern, I know that you shouldn't trust sims entirely, duh, but i still want to know if this one has any value. If not i'll just forget about it and stick to cruising my way through raids with Sin because even though i have some awesome raiders in my guild i'm still doing great and like that i can focus on mechanics.

[Ryuuji]

But i hate playing sub..

- - - Updated - - -



You, actually seem to be the only one who brought up a useful point. So i went and looked at the gear of each of the rogues in the simulation. they all had shit stats, but funny enough the Outlaw had the worse stat optimization.


As for my original concern, I know that you shouldn't trust sims entirely, duh, but i still want to know if this one has any value. If not i'll just forget about it and stick to cruising my way through raids with Sin because even though i have some awesome raiders in my guild i'm still doing great and like that i can focus on mechanics.

That's not 100% true, haste takes a massive spike in value in Roll the Bones build for energy regeneration, I'll probably still be playing Slice and Dice but may give RTB a shot once I get 4 set. The only way to really know your stat values as Outlaw is to Sim because it changes so frequently with gear changes.

[elfporn]

For progression, i will be top 5 this coming mythic week. As assination. Last night when finally got around to railing argus - i was top dmg by leaps and bounds. (I have 4p t20, 2p t21)

For early progression assination is fine. We will be eclipsed as time goes on though.

[Tusq]

This is called useless elitism. For about 99% of the players, personal skill is a much more contributing facter than class, spec or legendaries.

You may call it that. That doesnt mean it doesnt exist. My raid leader does it. We raid 2 nights a week and we're a ~1000k rank guild.

[elfporn]

You may call it that. That doesnt mean it doesnt exist. My raid leader does it. We raid 2 nights a week and we're a ~1000k rank guild.

Ymirsson is right though. That niche of the 1% that practices what is rightly called ”useless elitism”... well, that’s how you exacerbate burnout, create unfriendly raiding environments, create an unfun experience, etc. It’s unnecessary.

My guild is in the top 1000 too. Yet we’re overflowing with raid members. We’ve had 5+ on the bench for mythic for all of legion, our heroic raids (when we do them on mains) have to bench players. I think the only recruits we’ve had to fish around for has been an offtank. Most people who stop raiding stick around because we have fun.

A good player over the “right” class is the way to go, and if your raid leader doesn’t operate that way... Well, i’ve been in guilds like that, way back when, its not fun.

[Tusq]

Ymirsson is right though. That niche of the 1% that practices what is rightly called ”useless elitism”... well, that’s how you exacerbate burnout, create unfriendly raiding environments, create an unfun experience, etc. It’s unnecessary.

My guild is in the top 1000 too. Yet we’re overflowing with raid members. We’ve had 5+ on the bench for mythic for all of legion, our heroic raids (when we do them on mains) have to bench players. I think the only recruits we’ve had to fish around for has been an offtank. Most people who stop raiding stick around because we have fun.

A good player over the “right” class is the way to go, and if your raid leader doesn’t operate that way... Well, i’ve been in guilds like that, way back when, its not fun.

We benched people on FA progress cause other classes made it way easier. We're not a world first guild. We dont have a bad raid environment.

Just don't say it doesnt exist.

If you're equally skilled as the rest of your guild, you will probably get benched if you're playing the worst spec of them all.

You're basically saying "Get better than the rest of the guildmembers and you will have no issue". Sure that's right. But what if you're just not gonna be better than the rest of your guildmembers?

[ymirsson]

We benched people on FA progress cause other classes made it way easier. We're not a world first guild. We dont have a bad raid environment.

Just don't say it doesnt exist.

If you're equally skilled as the rest of your guild, you will probably get benched if you're playing the worst spec of them all.

You're basically saying "Get better than the rest of the guildmembers and you will have no issue". Sure that's right. But what if you're just not gonna be better than the rest of your guildmembers?

It's a matter of the guild you're in. Sure, there are guilds were such attitude is appropriate, but for 99% of all it isn't and i dare say most guilds which sort their roster by "most useful/worst class/spec" are doing it wrong. If your guild works, that's fine. But most people don't need to switch specs just because their raid progress is bad.
In most guilds, it is a problem with a player or the raid organization or the raid leading but it is seldomly a problem solvable by changing specs.

[britishbubba]

But i hate playing sub..

Then don't play sub. I was just telling you the reasons that taking stacked sims as gospel in terms of telling you what is the strongest raiding spec doesn't work.

If you want to raid as assassination, have at it. You just have to deal with the part that vendetta is a debuff and not a buff, and the downsides that come with that. The only time you're really going to lag super far behind the other specs is on AoE fights where outlaw will just do more consistent AoE, and sub will do more single target through shuriken combo.