Remember when Genn Greymane didn't watch the Horde cinematic for the Broken Shore?

[ornichi]

Trall, Baine, Vol'Jin, Saurfang
that's the same character.
You can also add Velen, malfurion, tyrande, Cairne and boy king, proably missed some.

All are the same character with different colors.

Velen - a 100 000 yo priest who lost his people, lost his son, lost his home and struggles to get his revenge against those who betrayed him.
Trall - a young orc slave who ended up building a New Horde and representing Earthern Ring.
Saurfang - not really well deveoped except for losing his son during ICC events.
Vol'Jin - is vastly underveloped. Has so much potential. Still helped in recreating the Horde, lead the rebellion against Garrosh'es tyranny.
Boy King - has much potential. Lost his father at young age. Burden of being a King of Alliance. Needs to sort out what is right and what is wrong for himself. Right after he becomes a King, we get another faction war. And we know he has plot armor till he is like 70 yo badass leader of the fight against the Void. So he has much room for development.

[Shakou]

People keeps complaining that Hord did retreat, but let's face the real thing:
it's a shame that Genn Greymane didn't jump on the big Fel Robot instead of Varian.
Because that's what a devoted soldier/second in command would do, protect his King whatever the cost.

But no, the old Wolf chose (again) to let Stormwind behind.

/discuss

I agree, the game would be better if Varian and Genn had switched places in that situation. I would have felt bad about killing Gul'dan tbh.

[Tarba]

Ya sure, but there is absolutely no good reason he's dragging everyone else into his vendetta with him. It's hilarious watching people try to justify it tho.

Of course that's a good reason, for him. Because it's a character with a personnality.
Not like Cairne, Baine, Voljin, Thrall, Malfurion, Tyrande, BoyKing, Velen etc... etc...
Who are all light warrior of peace love justice, little birds and rainbow.
No actual realistic leaders.

Gen, Sylvanas, Garrosh, Varian a bit, they had personnalities. Desires. That made them people who actually want and take power.

Genn is an asshole who seeks revenge, he'll use every means to do so. The fact that others are following him is bullshit, but heh.

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Velen - a 100 000 yo priest who lost his people, lost his son, lost his home and struggles to get his revenge against those who betrayed him.
Trall - a young orc slave who ended up building a New Horde and representing Earthern Ring.
Saurfang - not really well deveoped except for losing his son during ICC events.
Vol'Jin - is vastly underveloped. Has so much potential. Still helped in recreating the Horde, lead the rebellion against Garrosh'es tyranny.
Boy King - has much potential. Lost his father at young age. Burden of being a King of Alliance. Needs to sort out what is right and what is wrong for himself. Right after he becomes a King, we get another faction war. And we know he has plot armor till he is like 70 yo badass leader of the fight against the Void. So he has much room for development.

warrior of peace love justice, little birds and rainbow.
Same personnality, same character, different background. Who cares about that?

[Shakou]

Of course that's a good reason, for him. Because it's a character with a personnality.

Yes, all characters with personality drag their entire faction into a war fought for no reason but a personal quest for vengeance. Makes perfect sense.

Are you disabled, or addicted to meth by any chance?

[ornichi]

1) WC3 is not WOW
2) I'm right and you are not.

Literally for almost the entirety of WOW Sylvannas has been just a questgiver/npc for low level players. She only got elevated more recently, and still has not had an expansion that brought her up to main character status.

You do not have an argument, stop it.

Well in that case neither do you, lol.

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warrior of peace love justice, little birds and rainbow.
Same personnality, same character, different background. Who cares about that?

Same people arguing at forum with different background. Who cares?

[Tarba]

Yes, all characters with personality drag their entire faction into a war fought for no reason but a personal quest for vengeance. Makes perfect sense.

Are you disabled, or addicted to meth by any chance?

Not all, him does that because he wants Sylvanas dead. Others are justice morons of light who follow for no good reasons. What you can't understand in that little head of yours, is that leaders are not all GREAT HEROES OF THE LIGHT. Most of them are like that in wow because writers are bad so you feel lost, but He, he is an asshole with a personnal motivation. He'll use others to do so. And it works because the story is bullcrap.

[Shakou]

Well in that case neither do you, lol.

That's not how this shit works.

You're the dude ranting about how Sylvannas should just be killed off because they've used her way too much when the truth is that Sylvannas Windrunner has never at any point of this video game, THIS ONE, World of Warcraft, the one we are talking about right now, been any thing other than a quest giver/npc that's showed up in cut scenes/cinematics and wasn't even the main character. The story has never been about her. Period.


Please go away. Thanks.

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Not all, him does that because he wants Sylvanas dead. Others are justice morons of light who follow for no good reasons. What you can't understand in that little head of yours, is that leaders are not all GREAT HEROES OF THE LIGHT. Most of them are in wow because writers are bad, but He, he is an asshole with a personnal motivation. He'll uses others to do so. And it works because the story is bullcrap.

Stop dodging the question. Are you disabled or addicted to meth?

[WolfRider]

I agree, the game would be better if Varian and Genn had switched places in that situation. I would have felt bad about killing Gul'dan tbh.

Hehehe! Me too!
But storywise, Varian's death is a climax, wouldn't have the same impact if Genn died.
Greymane is blinded by revenge, his judgement isn'ti mpartial regarding Sylvanas.
So from Broken Shores event to events leading to the assault on Lordaeron, passing by Stormheim campaign, he's only motivated by vengeance, thing that is dangerous since Anduin is listening to his advices.

[Tarba]

I'm not doging the question, I clearly explained to you that Genn has the personal desire to kill Sylvanas, WHO IS THE LEADER OF THE OTHER FACTION. So he uses other people to make that war and get revenge. Others are light justice warriors and follow blindly because writers are bad.
Can you understand a simple concept like that? Or you can't get away the idea that "people = nice"

[Gurmech]

Ya sure, but there is absolutely no good reason he's dragging everyone else into his vendetta with him. It's hilarious watching people try to justify it tho.

The people of gilneas joined the alliance under the pretense that the alliance would aid their effort to retake their homeland, for this, the gilneans have fought, bleed and died in the service of the alliance and their agenda. The humans of stormwind, and the night elves are/were both commited to this for their own reasons.

If a blow can be dealt to the forsaken, the primary adversary in the reclaimation effort, it is in the interest of Gilneas, and the alliance to take it.Just because you are fighting a greater evil, does not mean you have to ignore a lesser one, especially not if the lesser evil can grow to be a greater one.

[Destinas]

Genn is crazy, for sure 100%. And it's just hilarious how people based on nothing at all just assume Sylvannas personally destroys Teldrassil and that it sparks the new war, they also tend to be the same people that think Genn actually has a reason beyond his son dying to have personal grudge against Sylvannas.

Genn is certainly blinded by hatred and revenge. But, there are actual reasons (and statements) for why Sylvanas is blamed for the beginning of events in BfA. It's been talked about to death by this point.

First and foremost, in the book Before the Storm, which takes place after the events of Argus but before BfA, it is stated outright that Sylvanas wants to siege Stormwind. From the preview that was released, it seems she wants to do this before anything else. The prologue talks about how the Horde will have little time to rest before she needs their soldiers for "the next battle" - which is stated in the end to be Stormwind.

Then there are the two images related to Teldrassil burning. Out of everyone, Sylvanas is standing there before and after it burns, with another elf that is speculated to be Vereesa or Shandris. It's in the middle of a battlefield, which would be somewhere on Darkshore - presumably Lor'danel. The battlefield in both images is on fire, with the fire leading up to where Sylvanas is standing. Most importantly, you can see Alliance and Horde ships near the roots of Teldrassil, with fewer ships in the second image - but the Horde ship is still there.

Jaina's lines allude to this happening before the Siege of Undercity in the trailer at Blizzcon. The burning of Teldrassil was originally questioned if it was before of after the Siege of Undercity at Blizzcon, with most developers tight-lipped about it. Then in a Gamespot interview with WoW production director John Hight, he said:

And then things happen in the opening of Battle for Azeroth that cement it. Some of the imagery that you'll see is the scene is with Sylvanas standing in front Teldrassil on fire. Then with the opening cinematic, that event was right before the Alliance finally says, "Okay, we've had it" before they assault Lordaeron.

Meaning that the events at Teldrassil did indeed happen before the Siege of Undercity.

So, no, it's not based on "nothing at all" when the only evidence we've been supplied makes Sylvanas out to be the instigator in this entire war. Of course, Sylvanas could be framed, or there could be plenty of other factors. But, considering she wanted to siege Stormwind before all the other events, it doesn't seem out of the question that she will actually start the fire (figuratively and literally) in BfA.

[Shakou]

Hehehe! Me too!
But storywise, Varian's death is a climax, wouldn't have the same impact if Genn died.
Greymane is blinded by revenge, his judgement isn'ti mpartial regarding Sylvanas.
So from Broken Shores event to events leading to the assault on Lordaeron, passing by Stormheim campaign, he's only motivated by vengeance, thing that is dangerous since Anduin is listening to his advices.

Right exactly the point of the thread.

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Genn is certainly blinded by hatred and revenge. But, there are actual reasons (and statements) for why Sylvanas is blamed for the beginning of events in BfA. It's been talked about to death by this point.

1) No there are not.

2) Things you mentioned have nothing to do with Teldrassil burning and what you mentioned is a plan that never comes to fruition that YOU the person reading the book would know about and nobody else does.

3) That looks like Sylvannas, but it could be any of her sisters in those images. Or did you not notice the Draenei and Dwarf/human standing next to her?

4) Even if that is Sylvannas THAT'S CONCEPT ART. THAT'S NOT A PIECE OF ART DONE AFTER PRODUCTION THAT NECESSARILY REPRESENTS AN ACTUAL MOMENT IN THE GAME.

5) Even if it's depicting something in game it's not depicting Sylvannas setting fire to Teldrassil.

6) None of this somehow trump's Genn Greymane literally dragging the Alliance into a war for personal vengeance.

Just stop living in denial and admit that you hate Sylvannas as a character.

[valky94]

i just rewatched botht the cinematics, at the time sylvannas sounds the horn of retreat, (both varian and genn obviously heared it) their reactions were "No, she wouldn't." and "I knew we couldn't trust her." eventhough she kinda saved varians life in the cinematic trailer by deflecting that infernals hand with her arrow, but like cmon, they got no intel on whats happening on the ridge above them, yet they insta think she betryed them and left them to die to the legion, the mission was a suicide to bein with as soon as gul'dan summoned the legions commnaders in front of the tomb, they should have retreated asap

[sam86]

there is even the fact that all broken shore failure is on alliance shoulder, as seen in rogue class hall campaign, where a dreadlord (i think it was Detheroc?) assume the role of alliance SI7 leader, and gives fault info that everything is 'ok' and they should come, making - literally - the death of varian and vol'jin alliance fault, but in typical alliance fashion they are the good faction that never do mistake, so let's blame horde
it is strange that this piece of info is never made public, since the end of the campaign u invade stormwind and help return the alliance kidnapped leader back to action, hard to be unnoticed, but blizz just want to be stupid
I mean if Genn doesn't know, there is no way that Anduin - the boss of Si:7, the one they report all things to him - doesn't know

BRB lvling my rogue now lmfao.

Those little details certainly do make a difference!

they aren't 'little details' at all, in fact rogue class campaign will make u hate BFA setting even more, since alliance rogues go out of their ways to help horde from legion spies and vice versa
seriously this is one of major quests that show in legion we became best buddies, then next exp everyone 'forget' that and get to each others throats ? wtf ?

As far as I am aware, language barrier is a gameplay mechanic only, doesn't actually exist in Lore. Cutscenes are cannon and they're always talking to eachother and understand one another.

It is gameplay only, for example all Forsaken know common, they hate to use it but they understand it very well, Forsaken specially learn many languages as part of their culture
Common is well, the most common language, even Gnolls and Kobolds understand common (they speak low-common however), while some horde races make sense to not know common - like Taurens or Darkspear Trolls -, blood elves who lived for eternity as alliance, with strong ties with humans, don't

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2) Things you mentioned have nothing to do with Teldrassil burning and what you mentioned is a plan that never comes to fruition that YOU the person reading the book would know about and nobody else does.

Tell that to blizzard, many events that are mentioned in book and should be 'hidden info' is basically everyone knowledge
we were told that for example Bolvar be the Lich King is a 'hidden info' and ppl should be told that Lich King is dead and over, yet everyone seems to know that Bolvar became the Lich King and Lich King still lives and will always live as immortal being, so we - players - are not only ones who read books, tbh it seems the info that ppl know are very weird, they know too much about stuff they shouldn't, yet they ignore other info, specifically alliance loves to ignore their mistakes like what i just typed about the big fuckup of SI7 or entire Garithos actions to name a few

[Shakou]

Tell that to blizzard, many events that are mentioned in book and should be 'hidden info' is basically everyone knowledge
we were told that for example Bolvar be the Lich King is a 'hidden info' and ppl should be told that Lich King is dead and over, yet everyone seems to know that Bolvar became the Lich King and Lich King still lives and will always live as immortal being, so we - players - are not only ones who read books, tbh it seems the info that ppl know are very weird, they know too much about stuff they shouldn't, yet they ignore other info, specifically alliance loves to ignore their mistakes like what i just typed about the big fuckup of SI7 or entire Garithos actions to name a few

Ya, you make a lot of great points. Blizzard does this kind of thing all the time, they present information to the player and then forget how that information was given to the player or bury that information and never do anything with it and plow forward with the story anyways.

That said, I'm pretty sure only the Death Knights at Archerus are aware of Bolvar being the Lich King, don't seem to recall Bolvar coming up anywhere else.

Whatever the case is, I personally think Blizzard is fully aware of the fact that the war happening doesn't really make any sense but is using it as a setting to deal with threads that have been let go for a while (especially dealing with Jaina and whatever she's been up to), and people need to keep in mind this is a not-so-cleverly disguised Old God expansion anyways.

[Destinas]

Right exactly the point of the thread.

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1) No there are not.

2) Things you mentioned have nothing to do with Teldrassil burning and what you mentioned is a plan that never comes to fruition that YOU the person reading the book would know about and nobody else does.

3) That looks like Sylvannas, but it could be any of her sisters in those images. Or did you not notice the Draenei and Dwarf/human standing next to her?

4) Even if that is Sylvannas THAT'S CONCEPT ART. THAT'S NOT A PIECE OF ART DONE AFTER PRODUCTION THAT NECESSARILY REPRESENTS AN ACTUAL MOMENT IN THE GAME.

5) Even if it's depicting something in game it's not depicting Sylvannas setting fire to Teldrassil.

6) None of this somehow trump's Genn Greymane literally dragging the Alliance into a war for personal vengeance.

Just stop living in denial and admit that you hate Sylvannas as a character.

Step 1: put your head between your knees and calm down a bit. You're putting words in my mouth by making points that I wasn't even trying to make whatsoever. I've never said anything about "hating" Sylvanas, nor am I saying that Genn is in the right at all - I in fact stated that Genn is blinded by hatred and revenge, which you ignored. I'm generally not a fan of Genn's personal vendetta, and I feel he already got his revenge in Stormheim. It's just a fact that Sylvanas wanted to siege Stormwind and attack the Alliance first, directly after the events in Legion. This is known. What isn't known is why the plan isn't followed through, and why (seemingly) Teldrassil was burned instead.

The paragraphs right before the Sylvanas part also allude to Azerite being found by goblins, which we also know is a major reason this war will exist. The readers are also not the only ones that know she wanted to attack the Alliance first - in the preview she's speaking to Nathanos about this to prepare the troops.

Nathanos is presumably the human male next to her in the first image, by the way. The coat looks quite a bit like his new model in patch 7.3.5. The orc also looks a bit like Saurfang. That is most definitely Sylvanas standing before Teldrassil as well. Not only is the armor identical to Sylvanas' (more so than Vereesa and Alleria, who do not have the tattered cape and spiked/feathered shoulderpads on both shoulders - see here), but it was outright stated by a developer from Blizzard in an interview that it's Sylvanas standing before Teldrassil. Did you ignore that, as well?

That art was also promotional art, not concept art. That's a huge difference. It was shown to be the moment Teldrassil burns, as stated in interviews and on the Blizzcon floor. There are also two versions of the image, which I linked above. It should be noted that the "before" image is called "Approach to Teldrassil" and the "after" is called "Teldrassil Burns" - it does indeed show Sylvanas and company actively walking toward it in the first one. They would have no reason to make concept art of what Teldrassil looked like before it burned, and then after it burned. It was meant to be shown at Blizzcon and around fansites, which it was.

[WolfRider]

i just rewatched botht the cinematics, at the time sylvannas sounds the horn of retreat, (both varian and genn obviously heared it) their reactions were "No, she wouldn't." and "I knew we couldn't trust her." eventhough she kinda saved varians life in the cinematic trailer by deflecting that infernals hand with her arrow, but like cmon, they got no intel on whats happening on the ridge above them, yet they insta think she betryed them and left them to die to the legion, the mission was a suicide to bein with as soon as gul'dan summoned the legions commnaders in front of the tomb, they should have retreated asap

In the Broken Shores scenario, after Fordring's "death", Alliance and Hord take separated paths, and Sylvanas says to Varian that she will secure the sky for him and push the demons back.
In the cinematic, just before she sounds retreat, Varian says that Sylvanas will clear the sky from the fel bats, I guess in order to allow Meccatorque to use the Flying Ship.
When Sylvanas calls for retreat, he looks deceived, but right after that, he sees that Demons invaded the peak.
He understood then called the Alliance retreat.

Then Varian knew that Sylvanas didn't have the choice and his first thought (betrayal) heavily enforced by Genn (by the way) wasted time to make a safe retreat.

If Alliance was a little bit more confident towards the Hord, Varian's death would not happened.

[Shakou]

Step 1: put your head between your knees and calm down a bit. You're putting words in my mouth by making points that I wasn't even trying to make whatsoever.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, you are derailing the conversation here.

This thread is about the fact that there is no proof that Sylvannas is responsible for Teldrassil burning.

The image, whether it's Sylvannas or not, is in fact concept art, and it does not in fact show Sylvannas burning Teldrassil. It shows her standing alone on Darkshore watching. That's it. Everyone here is aware this piece of art exists, only you and a few other loud mouths (who tend to also be people who are completely unaware that the Horde actually didn't betray the Alliance at the Broken Shore) insist that it means Sylvannas burns Teldrassil.

[Destinas]

I'm not putting words in your mouth, you are derailing the conversation here.

This thread is about the fact that there is no proof that Sylvannas is responsible for Teldrassil burning.

The image, whether it's Sylvannas or not, is in fact concept art, and it does not in fact show Sylvannas burning Teldrassil. It shows her standing alone on Darkshore watching. That's it. Everyone here is aware this piece of art exists, only you and a few other loud mouths insist that it means Sylvannas burns Teldrassil.

I was responding to a point you made about Teldrassil in this thread in the first place, actually. You even mentioned the beginning of BfA in your OP, with Teldrassil as well. So, I'm not derailing the thread at all, in fact. I simply stated facts brought forth by developers and novels - which you're welcome to not believe at this point, since you ignore facts that you personally dislike.

[Shakou]

I was responding to a point you made about Teldrassil in this thread in the first place, actually. You even mentioned the beginning of BfA in your OP, with Teldrassil as well. So, I'm not derailing the thread at all, in fact. I simply stated facts brought forth by developers and novels - which you're welcome to not believe at this point, since you ignore facts that you personally dislike.

Your facts do not = "Sylvannas burns Teldrassil" period. That is my point. And my only point. Apparently you somehow missed that. So what I'm saying is as this is not your fucking catch all speculation thread, take your facts and go to your own Sylvannas burns tesdrassil speculation thread and talk about that there, cuz this isn't the place for it.