Remember when Genn Greymane didn't watch the Horde cinematic for the Broken Shore?

[Fayolynn]

So it was all his choice and really isn't the horde's fault at all. They couldn't have stopped the Fel Reaver either. And really Sylvanas did the same thing, she saved her friends/men and alerted the Alliance to the retreat that saved everyone but Varian. Varian thinking he could one shot Gul'dan with an entire army surrounding him was folly, but he had no choice since he jumped down to kill the Fel Reaver.

Varian's choices led to his death, there was nothing the horde could have done to stop it, the majority of their heroes had already fallen.

The Alliance had no way of knowing how bad things were. From his view everything was fine, the combined armies were winning the fight and then the Horde calmly withdrew from battle. Seriously the archers shouting out something reflecting the gravity of the situation would have clued the Alliance in. Seriously just a bad job on Blizzards part to force a conflict.

[Halyon]

Again, the Forsaken calmly withdrew from battle, full on retreats don't work like that. Calmly withdrawing implies that everything is fine for them instead of them fleeing for their lives.

No, that was only her archers shown doing that. It's not like she and other undead are known for bursts of emotion, it's in their condition. You don't have to look panicked to haul ass.

[Darktbs]

You mean beyond his son getting brutally murdered by Sylvannas? And his country getting sacked by her? That's not enough of a reason to hate someone?

I m still waiting for people to realize that Genn is the new Sylvanas.

-Undead Army invaded kingdom and kills everything the character loves
-Turns into a monstrosity
-Swear vengeance for him and his kingdom.
-Invaded kingdom's character deals some minor damage to the Undead champion.
-Undead champion becomes the faction leader.

There are some changes so that the story is not copy paste, genn was already a worgen, the Forsaken aren't nearly as competent as the Scourge and one wasn't slave to the other.

But the basics follow and we all know how it ended.

[Fayolynn]

No, that was only her archers shown doing that. It's not like she and other undead are known for bursts of emotion, it's in their condition. You don't have to look panicked to haul ass.

The archers are all the Alliance could see. They became the face of the Horde and because of the all the Alliance saw was Forsaken archers calmly walking away after hearing a horn blast it seems like a betrayal.

[Tabrotar]

What I find the most interesting is that this is that you (and, to be fair, most others) have an issue with the "misunderstanding" and the retreat/stay and fight options - I personally think that the entire scenario is ridiculous. We're expected to believe that the Horde and Alliance work together in a tightly coordinated assault on the Legion, but haven't worked out a way to get a message across to each other? That there's literally no way for one group to inform the other that they're being overrun, and need to fall back?

My problem with the scenario is that either something like that was worked out in advance (and the Horde just didn't use it, which makes their retreat malicious) or Varian and Sylvanas both thought that a way to communicate wasn't really necessary, which paints both leaders in a quite incompetent light.

They clearly had a way to communicate because right after some felbats swooped down on Varian and Genn he said to Genn: Call her and tell her she has to get the air free of that beasts (not exactly in those words but yeah).

That Sylvanas on the other hand didn´t even botjered to give them some sort of signal/whatever...

[Halyon]

The archers are all the Alliance could see. They became the face of the Horde and because of the all the Alliance saw was Forsaken archers calmly walking away after hearing a horn blast it seems like a betrayal.

They still heard the horn that meant 'gtfo', which is the most important part. They got out with most of their lives because of it.

[Shakou]

You mean beyond his son getting brutally murdered by Sylvannas? And his country getting sacked by her? That's not enough of a reason to hate someone?

First off you seem to have trouble reading: nobody said he doesn't have a good reason to hate her. The key point is *HIS* hatred is justifiable, not an entire faction driven to war by a madman on a quest for revenge. They don't actually have a reason to get involved. It is actually not a matter of opinion that boy king taking advice from Genn is a bad idea.

Second, those things didn't even happen. You are actually part of the reason this topic is necessary, because these are things you could easily google and fact check for yourself. But people like you don't care about facts. lol

Have you even leveled a Worgen?

The Forsaken never step foot in Gilneas until after the Shattering, by that time Greymane and his people were already pushed out of Gilneas City by feral worgen. The Forsaken gain a foothold in Gilneas City by pushing the feral worgen out.

It is Genn Greymane, advised by his idiot son, who makes a suicidal decision to attack the Forsaken in Gilneas City, believing for no good reason at all that they can take their city back.

In the Battle Sylvannas aims a poisoned arrow at Genn and his idiot son steps in front of it and takes it.

I know facts tho, right what are those?

[Ogren]

People keeps complaining that Hord did retreat, but let's face the real thing:
it's a shame that Genn Greymane didn't jump on the big Fel Robot instead of Varian.
Because that's what a devoted soldier/second in command would do, protect his King whatever the cost.

But no, the old Wolf chose (again) to let Stormwind behind.

/discuss

Greymane isn't the chosen messiah of Goldrinn with a magic sword that's capable of one-shotting a giant fel reaver to save everyone else. Varian was the only one on that gunship capable of giving his life for everyone else, because there's nothing any of the other Alliance leaders could do to stop that Fel Reaver that was holding down the ship.

This is why complaints about Human bias have some merit of legitimacy to them, because a Human is far more powerful of a warrior than a fucking werewolf.

[Spiffums]

No, he died because Genn didn't do his duty and sacrifice himself to protect his king. Everyone seems to forget that the Horde lost their warchief due to this fight as well. Vol'jin was mortally wounded and the Horde was being overrun was the only reason Sylvanas blew the retreat.

I still blame Jania Proudmore!

[Leyre]

Varian died because Varian didn't retreat when a retreat was sounded because both armies were in the middle of a trap.

The Legion deceived the Alliance and Horde about the numbers of their forces (see rogue class quest, false intel), and lured them to the Broken Shore to wipe out all the leaders of the Horde and Alliance in one fel (heh heh) swoop.

This plan only failed because the Horde went "oh dang shit's fucked, YO EVERYONE LEAVE."

Had Sylvanas /not/ sounded the retreat, then /everyone/ on the Broken Shore would have died, particularly the entire Alliance army when that giant fel reaver landed where their heads would have been.

The end result is that Varian died because he chose to stay behind, and Genn, Gelbin, and the rest of the Alliance forces lived because the Horde forced them to pull back out of a trap.

Im reporting you because using common sense is forbidden here, you've been warned

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You mean beyond his son getting brutally murdered by Sylvannas? And his country getting sacked by her? That's not enough of a reason to hate someone?

The gilneans abandoned the alliance 2 FUCKING TIMES IN WAR TIMES yet they took them back and forgave them, give me a break

[Fayolynn]

They still heard the horn that meant 'gtfo', which is the most important part. They got out with most of their lives because of it.

To the Alliance it looked like they were winning the fight. The Horde calmly withdrew from battle at the sound of the horn, that doesn't look like a GTFO moment that seems more like the Horde saying fuck it let the Alliance finish this up. There is literally ZERO reason for the Horde to have retreated in such a calm manner and not say anything to the Alliance forces below other than Blizzard telling a shitty story to force a conflict.

[Evaddon]

The war is Old God manipulation

and Ole' Genny is fucking tool.

[zanzan28]

Im reporting you because using common sense is forbidden here, you've been warned

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The gilneans abandoned the alliance 2 FUCKING TIMES IN WAR TIMES yet they took them back and forgave them, give me a break

What does that have to do with Genn hating her?

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First off you seem to have trouble reading: nobody said he doesn't have a good reason to hate her. The key point is *HIS* hatred is justifiable, not an entire faction driven to war by a madman on a quest for revenge. They don't actually have a reason to get involved. It is actually not a matter of opinion that boy king taking advice from Genn is a bad idea.

Second, those things didn't even happen. You are actually part of the reason this topic is necessary, because these are things you could easily google and fact check for yourself. But people like you don't care about facts. lol

Have you even leveled a Worgen?

The Forsaken never step foot in Gilneas until after the Shattering, by that time Greymane and his people were already pushed out of Gilneas City by feral worgen. The Forsaken gain a foothold in Gilneas City by pushing the feral worgen out.

It is Genn Greymane, advised by his idiot son, who makes a suicidal decision to attack the Forsaken in Gilneas City, believing for no good reason at all that they can take their city back.

In the Battle Sylvannas aims a poisoned arrow at Genn and his idiot son steps in front of it and takes it.

I know facts tho, right what are those?

Personally attacking people who disagree with you isn't how you win arguments. That's trolling and doesn't get anyone anywhere.

Gileans have a reason to be angry about the sacking of their kingdom, and murder of their prince. Gilneas is a part of the Alliance. The Alliance supports its members-Varian spoke often about reclaiming Gilneas, etc. They support each other-thus the war between the Gilneans and the Forsaken becomes a war between the Alliance and the Horde. It also makes sense generally for humans to be angry with the forsaken post-Southshore, etc. This isn't just about Gilneas, even though that's a large part of it.

How do the Forsaken get into Gilneas City? Ships. Through Duskhaven. Attacking who? Gilneans. Then they go for the capital from both the north and south. Taking one's city back from aggressors is an aggressive move? You're kidding right?

"It is actually not a matter of opinion that boy king taking advice from Genn is a bad idea." ->Literally an opinion. If the Alliance takes Undercity is that not a military victory at least potentially able to be considered a good idea from the perspective of someone who believes in Alliance expansion? Yeah.

"believing for no good reason at all that they can take their city back." -> They literally take back their city until the forsaken unleash the plague? So pretty good reason to believe they could no?

No one said Sylvannas meant to kill Liam. Doesn't mean she didn't kill Liam.

[Kithelle]

The Horde abandoned the Alliance, the Horde had a easy retreat while the Alliance had a hard one.

Did she even give a damn and try to offer the Alliance some cover? Nope...

More than a misunderstanding in my book...she obviously didn't even give her *allies* a seconds time worth of thought.

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Varian died because Varian didn't retreat when a retreat was sounded because both armies were in the middle of a trap.

The Legion deceived the Alliance and Horde about the numbers of their forces (see rogue class quest, false intel), and lured them to the Broken Shore to wipe out all the leaders of the Horde and Alliance in one fel (heh heh) swoop.

This plan only failed because the Horde went "oh dang shit's fucked, YO EVERYONE LEAVE."

Had Sylvanas /not/ sounded the retreat, then /everyone/ on the Broken Shore would have died, particularly the entire Alliance army when that giant fel reaver landed where their heads would have been.

The end result is that Varian died because he chose to stay behind, and Genn, Gelbin, and the rest of the Alliance forces lived because the Horde forced them to pull back out of a trap.

No...Varian died because he saved his people from the Fel Reaver...he had no choice because his Horde "allies" ditched him. They ran with their tails between their legs to a easy retreat while they left the Alliance to get fucked.

If it wasn't for Varian then half the Alliance racial leaders would have been killed.

[Flarelaine]

...staying and dying is downright retarded rather than living to fight another day. Staying behind was a death-sentence. Any decent army doesn't waste troops that way, thus they hauled their asses out.

Varian decided to go back. He chose to die.

You may recall that the army did not stay. Varian did so the army could retreat. Heroes do that, you know.

[Zyky]

Misunderstanding or not, the end result is that Varian died because Horde retreated.

Vol'jin died too, we lost our king, they lost their warchief. boohoo. There is zero reason for this pointless faction conflict.

[Hitei]

First off you seem to have trouble reading: nobody said he doesn't have a good reason to hate her. The key point is *HIS* hatred is justifiable, not an entire faction driven to war by a madman on a quest for revenge. They don't actually have a reason to get involved. It is actually not a matter of opinion that boy king taking advice from Genn is a bad idea.

Second, those things didn't even happen. You are actually part of the reason this topic is necessary, because these are things you could easily google and fact check for yourself. But people like you don't care about facts. lol

Have you even leveled a Worgen?

The Forsaken never step foot in Gilneas until after the Shattering, by that time Greymane and his people were already pushed out of Gilneas City by feral worgen. The Forsaken gain a foothold in Gilneas City by pushing the feral worgen out.

It is Genn Greymane, advised by his idiot son, who makes a suicidal decision to attack the Forsaken in Gilneas City, believing for no good reason at all that they can take their city back.

In the Battle Sylvannas aims a poisoned arrow at Genn and his idiot son steps in front of it and takes it.

I know facts tho, right what are those?

Except that the converted Gilneans already had a handle on the situation and were going to retake their country just fine. The worgen showing up first doesn't somehow mean the Forsaken didn't invade the country, lay siege to the city, and try to kill everyone.

The entire faction -IS- justified in attacking a faction that has attacked humans in the surrounding regions again, and again, and again; and attempted to wipe out a faction that is now part of the Alliance (and several other areas that were already Alliance).

Those are the facts. The Forsaken have attacked the Alliance multiple times. Wowee, I wonder why the Alliance might have gotten tired of Sylvanas' shit and decided it's time for her to cut it out.

[Schattenlied]

Unless you are one of the few that never played Horde side, literally the whole reason for Horde/Ally conflict in Legion was based on a misunderstanding, yet it's one of the main reasons cited at Blizzcon for why there is conflict between the factions in BFA.

I would say the odds of Teldrassil burning being any different are slim to none at all.

But let's not let that stop people from taking unconfirmed rumors and baseless speculation as gospel.

It is, however...

Sylvanas is actively planning a war with the Alliance during a time of peace, immediately following the victory over the Legion, before the burning of Teldrassil, and during a time when even she consideres the Alliance and Horde to not be at war.


So, I doubt this one will be much of a misunderstanding... And even in the event that she doesn't burn the tree and it IS a misunderstanding, the bitch was still planning an assault on Stormwind, so there would have been war anyways.

[Eapoe]

I think the real uber villain here is Genn. Let's get some things straight. The Horde sounded their retreat, blasting a horn in the process to sound the retreat. Genn, a fucking werewolf who can obviously hear better than others (fucking doggo ears!) actually turns to the Horde as the horn sounds. Instead of telling his king "the Horde sounded the retreat, we should do the same!" he instead decides to pursue personal vendetta and claim the Horde betrays them.
Then, during the escape, Varian jumps down to stop the Fel Reaver. Sure, he stabbed it in the head, but again, Genn is a fucking werewolf with increased strength and agility, and could have easily saved his king by jumping past Varian to land on the Reavers head and do some damage to the eye sockets (probably not a killing blow but enough to distract).
After he gets back to the Alliance safe areas, he plants himself next to Anduin to start planting ideas in his head about how the Horde acted cowardly and his father died a hero.
In a nutshell, Genn covered up the fact the Horde sounded a retreat to play off as a betrayal, he sacrificed his king instead of himself so Varian could be a martyr to Genn's personal vendetta (sparking new anger that the Horde "killed" their king), and then Weasley his way to Anduin's side to manipulate him as much as possible into a war sparked by Genn's hated.
Whether you support Horde or Alli, Genn is the true villain of recent lore.

[WolfRider]

I think the real uber villain here is Genn. Let's get some things straight. The Horde sounded their retreat, blasting a horn in the process to sound the retreat. Genn, a fucking werewolf who can obviously hear better than others (fucking doggo ears!) actually turns to the Horde as the horn sounds. Instead of telling his king "the Horde sounded the retreat, we should do the same!" he instead decides to pursue personal vendetta and claim the Horde betrays them.
Then, during the escape, Varian jumps down to stop the Fel Reaver. Sure, he stabbed it in the head, but again, Genn is a fucking werewolf with increased strength and agility, and could have easily saved his king by jumping past Varian to land on the Reavers head and do some damage to the eye sockets (probably not a killing blow but enough to distract).
After he gets back to the Alliance safe areas, he plants himself next to Anduin to start planting ideas in his head about how the Horde acted cowardly and his father died a hero.
In a nutshell, Genn covered up the fact the Horde sounded a retreat to play off as a betrayal, he sacrificed his king instead of himself so Varian could be a martyr to Genn's personal vendetta (sparking new anger that the Horde "killed" their king), and then Weasley his way to Anduin's side to manipulate him as much as possible into a war sparked by Genn's hated.
Whether you support Horde or Alli, Genn is the true villain of recent lore.

That.
Why can't people admit it?
Tyrande lost a lot of ground during Cataclysm against Hord and she doesn't enrage like a sick dog!

I will always repeat: Genn's son is dead because he was reckless, he shouldn't be on that battleground but he chose to fight. He jumped in front of his father to take the arrow, Sylvannas was aiming Genn!
And the grey wolf is blaming her?
It's like your kid dies because he played ball on the highway! Who should you blame? The truck driver or you?