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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    Unfortunately the attack table got solved the first time in late december 2006/january 2007, just before TBC. Before that milestone in the history of wow theorycrafting nearly all numbers were incorrect or misinterpreted. In that time theorycrafting was no mans land with only a few nerdy hardcores working around it. 99% of the player base in vanilla did actually feelcrafting.
    While their were few people that did theorycraft, their were theorycrafters and they were close to correct if not correct. At the time combat swords with bloodfang was the highest rogue dps spec. As I mentioned above, later on, with bonescythe and daggers (and beyond), due to better itemization, was rumored to be better. I tried it once, but went back to combat swords, during vanilla for two reasons.

    I was doing more dps as combat swords.
    Since we had four other rogues, and were working on progression, I made the decision to stay combat swords so that we wouldn't have 5 people going after certain weapons, & so we could move on to the next boss/raid.

    However, as with multiple other situations in this game over the years, once itemization becomes better, coincidentally so do other specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    With the right gear decission combat dagger could destroy combat sword rogues with the same quality of gear quite easily. The updated sheets with the solved attack table were telling this as well. Unfortunately this information were quite useless for vanilla just a few days before tbc.
    I can say something similar - in pvp, mace spec rogues destroyed both swords and daggers. Also, keep in mind I wasn't talking about right before TBC. I mentioned progression during MC and BWL, and at the time their were a lot of theorycrafters supporting combat swords being top dps.
    Last edited by Epoch; 2018-02-08 at 06:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 25165453757
    I am excite

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads View Post
    They werent garbage. What you retail children cant seem to grasp is that every spec is not supposed to be good in every situation.
    There were plenty of specs that weren't good in any situation.

    On another note, lashing out and calling people children is a great way to get people to ignore you.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolsteak View Post
    You're not great at discussions, Are you?
    What discussion. I clearly agree with your great logic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    The game will be coming out as it was, and that level of difficulty in MC was piss-easy for anyone competent. That's the way it is.

    I bet you don't even know how bad Tier 1 actually is for many classes.
    I'm just saying that easy, really easy and really really easy are three different things

  4. #324
    I am Murloc! jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    What discussion. I clearly agree with your great logic.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm just saying that easy, really easy and really really easy are three different things
    I really don't get your point. The game was what it was. Ocarina of Time is really easy too, does that mean we should remake it with Dark Souls-esque combat requirements?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    What discussion. I clearly agree with your great logic.
    My logic? I was stating a fact.

    You're the one who seems to think MC should be made soloable
    Quote Originally Posted by Potboza View Post
    I created a black human male called "Pedopriest" and ran him to SW.
    I started asking where the schools were.
    Someone said "My kids play on this server you creep! How can you live with yourself?"
    I whispered back, "How old are they?"
    Yeah.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Epoch View Post
    Also, keep in mind I wasn't talking about right before TBC
    Of course you didnt, but I did. Fact is, that the riddle about the correct numbers about the true attack table got solved just before TBC got released. Before that point, nearly all caps etc. were completely wrong, the forumals were completely wrong and weapon skill was totally underrated or rather misinterpreted. Before that point, there wasn't any mathimatically proof of how powerful weapon skill was in vanilla. All players which decided to stack this stat were doing this without safetyness, without mathematical certainty. I know excalty that date at which the truth about weapon skill got released the first time, it was like the release date of the first smart phone. A huge impact for all theorycrafting nerds, especially for plebls like me which decided to believe in weapon skill (aged core leather gloves FOREVER!, even in Naxx40)

    A group of players decided to make a huge project which took them month until they gathered all the data. They introduced their project on the elitist jerks forum in december 2006. They tested a huge amount of different classes with different specs and different gear setups (especially gear setups with huge differences in hit and weapon skill values). The result of that project was a fully encrypted attack table for melee classes (offensive values) and tank classes (defensive values). The forumals gathered by this project accompanied us for a long time.

  7. #327
    If blizzard goes more homoginzing (which they dont, they go to be precise backwards with bring the class not the player, bless ion), then ofc they gonna be specs and classes that are "not viable".

    Not viable in the sense of you putting yourself and your group at a disadvantage, it doesnt even matter what type of content really, a disadvantage is a disadvantage no matter how trivial.


    Lets take as a hypothesis Warlock. If every Warlock Spec has the same utility then you getting a disadvantage if you not take the one that is better performing. It doesnt matter what kind of content you are doing it is always a disadvantage and a lot of people dont like wasting time.


    So, imo, a non viable spec/class is worse at everything then a other class/spec and does not have additional benfits that are significant to counter balance it

  8. #328
    Brewmaster Gungnir's Avatar
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    It feels like a lot of the people in this thread just have either forgotten what it was like or they've been reading too much MMO champ.

    Shadow, elemental and balance for example weren't bad DPS. Hell, shadow was CRAZY strong DPS-wise but was limited by mana.
    Elemental and balance were also very strong but again, limited by mana.
    Regarding melee, you've got feral that can get pretty damn competitive with abusing Wolfshead and powershifting. Yes it was not intended, but it shows that you can make it work to quite a decent level.
    Hunters were always quite good when played correctly, albeit boring.

    Another weird misconception is that warlocks were somehow bad. They were weak early on since they didn't have an easy way to get hit rating through talent trees for example, but they scaled like a goddamn truck.
    I genuinely think warlocks are the one class that somehow went under the radar during the initial Vanilla period because if you ever had a warlock get into T3 gear, they genuinely became tied top DPS with a geared fury warrior and the one fire mage that got ignite.

    Not to mention a good warlock with engineering is one of the scariest things ever in PvP, though this is mostly for horde warlocks. Unfortunately WotF completely shafts alliance warlocks but it does mean that alliance warlocks will have an easier time getting raid spots, since there will be less played.
    A build that I HIGHLY recommend for any PvP-toting warlock is the Conflag/Nightfall build. If you've got decent gear you've already got monstrous damage and survivability as a warlock and Conflag/Nightfall just gives you even more instant damage capabilities.


    Thirdly is the misconception about tanks. Yes if you were raiding current content then warriors were the tanks you were after.
    However, if you're outgearing a raid or running dungeons, you could easily get a paladin or druid tank. Hell, paladins were brilliant dungeon tanks.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    It feels like a lot of the people in this thread just have either forgotten what it was like or they've been reading too much MMO champ.

    Shadow, elemental and balance for example weren't bad DPS. Hell, shadow was CRAZY strong DPS-wise but was limited by mana.
    Elemental and balance were also very strong but again, limited by mana.
    Regarding melee, you've got feral that can get pretty damn competitive with abusing Wolfshead and powershifting. Yes it was not intended, but it shows that you can make it work to quite a decent level.
    Hunters were always quite good when played correctly, albeit boring.

    Another weird misconception is that warlocks were somehow bad. They were weak early on since they didn't have an easy way to get hit rating through talent trees for example, but they scaled like a goddamn truck.
    I genuinely think warlocks are the one class that somehow went under the radar during the initial Vanilla period because if you ever had a warlock get into T3 gear, they genuinely became tied top DPS with a geared fury warrior and the one fire mage that got ignite.

    Not to mention a good warlock with engineering is one of the scariest things ever in PvP, though this is mostly for horde warlocks. Unfortunately WotF completely shafts alliance warlocks but it does mean that alliance warlocks will have an easier time getting raid spots, since there will be less played.
    A build that I HIGHLY recommend for any PvP-toting warlock is the Conflag/Nightfall build. If you've got decent gear you've already got monstrous damage and survivability as a warlock and Conflag/Nightfall just gives you even more instant damage capabilities.


    Thirdly is the misconception about tanks. Yes if you were raiding current content then warriors were the tanks you were after.
    However, if you're outgearing a raid or running dungeons, you could easily get a paladin or druid tank. Hell, paladins were brilliant dungeon tanks.
    I feel like you're missing the point. Those specs were bad BECAUSE they were limited by mana. Sure boomkins could go hard as fuck, for about a minute, then you did less damage than the tank for the rest of the fight cause you had no mana.

    Edit: The hybrids you mentioned that is.
    Last edited by Siglius; 2018-02-09 at 08:22 AM.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Siglius View Post
    I feel like you're missing the point. Those specs were bad BECAUSE they were limited by mana. Sure boomkins could go hard as fuck, for about a minute, then you did less damage than the tank for the rest of the fight cause you had no mana.

    Edit: The hybrids you mentioned that is.
    When you're fully world buffed 80% of boss fights last less than 90 seconds anyway

  11. #331
    Brewmaster Gungnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siglius View Post
    I feel like you're missing the point. Those specs were bad BECAUSE they were limited by mana. Sure boomkins could go hard as fuck, for about a minute, then you did less damage than the tank for the rest of the fight cause you had no mana.

    Edit: The hybrids you mentioned that is.
    You clearly didn't even read the post.
    People have the misconception that the specs do terrible DPS, which isn't true. It's just timelimited by your mana.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    Of course you didnt, but I did. Fact is, that the riddle about the correct numbers about the true attack table got solved just before TBC got released.
    Considering that I was referring to the time of Vanilla which was quite some time before tbc was even announced, and you stated you understood this, logically that would make your post above pointless, since we are talking about different times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    Before that point, nearly all caps etc. were completely wrong, the forumals were completely wrong and weapon skill was totally underrated or rather misinterpreted. Before that point, there wasn't any mathimatically proof of how powerful weapon skill was in vanilla. All players which decided to stack this stat were doing this without safetyness, without mathematical certainty. I know excalty that date at which the truth about weapon skill got released the first time, it was like the release date of the first smart phone. A huge impact for all theorycrafting nerds, especially for plebls like me which decided to believe in weapon skill (aged core leather gloves FOREVER!, even in Naxx40)
    As to all caps being wrong, no. It was simple to figure out what to go for back then as their weren't very many stats at the time. A lot of the stats were copies of stats in games of which the devs came from prior to blizzard. If someone had played those games, they had somewhat of an understanding of what to go for. Heck it could even be said that wow vanilla itself was a ripoff of other games which the devs came from, in that the devs took what they liked from previous games and created vanilla wow, but I digress. It didn't take a theorycrafter to figure out which stat to go for during vanilla, though theory crafters did exist on the wow forums back then and they did help. Try to not make it sound complicated - it wasn't. Any competent player could figure out what to go for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    A group of players decided to make a huge project which took them month until they gathered all the data. They introduced their project on the elitist jerks forum in december 2006. They tested a huge amount of different classes with different specs and different gear setups (especially gear setups with huge differences in hit and weapon skill values). The result of that project was a fully encrypted attack table for melee classes (offensive values) and tank classes (defensive values). The forumals gathered by this project accompanied us for a long time.
    During Vanilla, many players essentially theory crafted on the wow class forums. Interestingly, a good percentage of these same posters came from other games such as final fantasy, ultima and more. While you are correct that what these posters did eventually led to websites like elitist jerks being created. These theory crafters also continued to post on the wow forums among others. Some of us theory crafted in other games before coming to vanilla, and continued to do so on the vanilla forums. Incidentally enough, I was temp banned on ej during wotlk due to posting about black magic being good for ferals. At the time they wanted pages upon pages of math supporting this, when I did so they were of the opinion that it wasn't enough and wanted more. Essentially it came down to certain members there being lazy and not wanting to go against the norm. Wouldn't you know it, months later black magic was proved to be good for feral. Coincidentally sites like ej and others did and continued to post and push incorrect data.

    While the idea of ej in itself can be viewed as good for players who want the most out of their character, there is also the other side of ej, the not so good side - many times over the years ej has been found to not only be wrong, but to have shockingly inaccurate information for many specs. Due to what boiled down to be laziness or incompetence.
    Last edited by Epoch; 2018-02-11 at 05:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 25165453757
    I am excite

  13. #333
    I suspect there are no true nonviable specs. In the modern game classes regularly come from nowhere due to some incredible insight someone stumbles upon in an otherwise
    hopeless class-assasination rogues being a good recent example.

  14. #334
    Banned BuckSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siglius View Post
    I feel like you're missing the point. Those specs were bad BECAUSE they were limited by mana. Sure boomkins could go hard as fuck, for about a minute, then you did less damage than the tank for the rest of the fight cause you had no mana.

    Edit: The hybrids you mentioned that is.
    Everybody knows people only played boomkin to troll people in PVP.

    Moonfire. Moonfire. Moonfire. Moonfire. Moonfire. Moonfire. Moonfire. Moonfire.

    ARGH MAKE IT STOP.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Shibito View Post
    survival wasnt melee in vanilla its melee in legion.

    - - - Updated - - -



    that is false, combat dagger rises as one of the best rogue specs in vanilla
    Survival had a lot of melee talents so if you put more than 30 points into it you were gonna get some of the melee ones.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    It feels like a lot of the people in this thread just have either forgotten what it was like or they've been reading too much MMO champ.

    Shadow, elemental and balance for example weren't bad DPS. Hell, shadow was CRAZY strong DPS-wise but was limited by mana.
    Elemental and balance were also very strong but again, limited by mana.
    Regarding melee, you've got feral that can get pretty damn competitive with abusing Wolfshead and powershifting. Yes it was not intended, but it shows that you can make it work to quite a decent level.
    Hunters were always quite good when played correctly, albeit boring.

    Another weird misconception is that warlocks were somehow bad. They were weak early on since they didn't have an easy way to get hit rating through talent trees for example, but they scaled like a goddamn truck.
    I genuinely think warlocks are the one class that somehow went under the radar during the initial Vanilla period because if you ever had a warlock get into T3 gear, they genuinely became tied top DPS with a geared fury warrior and the one fire mage that got ignite.

    Not to mention a good warlock with engineering is one of the scariest things ever in PvP, though this is mostly for horde warlocks. Unfortunately WotF completely shafts alliance warlocks but it does mean that alliance warlocks will have an easier time getting raid spots, since there will be less played.
    A build that I HIGHLY recommend for any PvP-toting warlock is the Conflag/Nightfall build. If you've got decent gear you've already got monstrous damage and survivability as a warlock and Conflag/Nightfall just gives you even more instant damage capabilities.


    Thirdly is the misconception about tanks. Yes if you were raiding current content then warriors were the tanks you were after.
    However, if you're outgearing a raid or running dungeons, you could easily get a paladin or druid tank. Hell, paladins were brilliant dungeon tanks.
    Warlocks were severely hindered by the limits on debuffs and other Warlocks putting their dots on yours

  16. #336
    There weren't really 'specs' like there are now. All Classes were viable the same as it is today. Saying "Ret wasn't viable!" is like saying "Taking the middle talent for Ret in Legion isn't viable". You didn't pick a spec in vanilla, you picked talents.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by barrsftw View Post
    There weren't really 'specs' like there are now. All Classes were viable the same as it is today. Saying "Ret wasn't viable!" is like saying "Taking the middle talent for Ret in Legion isn't viable". You didn't pick a spec in vanilla, you picked talents.
    IF you had a ton of MP5 and a fast 2 handed weapon with crusader, it was totally viable. You had to itemize for it hard core.
    “If you don't believe me that is too damn bad!”

  18. #338
    Brewmaster Gungnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post

    Warlocks were severely hindered by the limits on debuffs and other Warlocks putting their dots on yours
    Warlocks weren't even using dots. Curses came first, and if you had 4 warlocks then the last one could get a dot up perhaps.
    That wasn't the brunt of their damage though, DS/Ruin and SM/Ruin were all around real meaty shadowbolts which just kept scaling hard as fuck.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post

    Warlocks were severely hindered by the limits on debuffs and other Warlocks putting their dots on yours
    True.

    The warlock shift started to occur with patch 1.7

    Patch 1.6 introduced several items with allot of spell hit, such as the Head off Nefarian and the trinket. Patch 1.7 added further hit items, which were even easier to get for a BWL raiding warlock. The additional debuff slots were also added. Add a shadow priest, and your warlocks can bring top tier DPS. Greater than Rogues, warriors and mages even on some fights.

    However, as was pointed out. I don't believe most people realized the potential warlocks had going into AQ40 and Naxxramas. But even the guilds that saw the potential, were already heavily invested in their 40 man roster they used to roll through Blackwing Lair. The perceived strengths of Warlocks, likely did not counter the downside associated with leveling and gearing warlocks or even putting valued members on the sideline and bringing in fresh warlock members.
    Patch 1.12, and not one step further!

  20. #340
    Mechagnome FeedsOnDevTears's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    It feels like a lot of the people in this thread just have either forgotten what it was like or they've been reading too much MMO champ.

    Shadow, elemental and balance for example weren't bad DPS. Hell, shadow was CRAZY strong DPS-wise but was limited by mana.
    Elemental and balance were also very strong but again, limited by mana.
    Regarding melee, you've got feral that can get pretty damn competitive with abusing Wolfshead and powershifting. Yes it was not intended, but it shows that you can make it work to quite a decent level.
    Hunters were always quite good when played correctly, albeit boring.

    Another weird misconception is that warlocks were somehow bad. They were weak early on since they didn't have an easy way to get hit rating through talent trees for example, but they scaled like a goddamn truck.
    I genuinely think warlocks are the one class that somehow went under the radar during the initial Vanilla period because if you ever had a warlock get into T3 gear, they genuinely became tied top DPS with a geared fury warrior and the one fire mage that got ignite.

    Not to mention a good warlock with engineering is one of the scariest things ever in PvP, though this is mostly for horde warlocks. Unfortunately WotF completely shafts alliance warlocks but it does mean that alliance warlocks will have an easier time getting raid spots, since there will be less played.
    A build that I HIGHLY recommend for any PvP-toting warlock is the Conflag/Nightfall build. If you've got decent gear you've already got monstrous damage and survivability as a warlock and Conflag/Nightfall just gives you even more instant damage capabilities.


    Thirdly is the misconception about tanks. Yes if you were raiding current content then warriors were the tanks you were after.
    However, if you're outgearing a raid or running dungeons, you could easily get a paladin or druid tank. Hell, paladins were brilliant dungeon tanks.
    Isn't that last part really the key?

    I didn't play vanilla, but I get the impression that there was a HUGE gap in difficulty / performance /expectation between raiding and ranked PvP on one hand, and pretty much everything else. I.e. there weren't any specs that couldn't perform their role in a normal dungeon (although some were better / easier), although solo questing or pvp was pretty hard for some specs, like tanks and healers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

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