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  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    since thats the mentality that expansions forged us into.

    .
    Actually, the playerbase forged the game into that mentality. Devs have always played catch-up with players when it comes to these things.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Loxotron View Post
    Your numbers are wrong, since the ARMOR CAP VS BOSS is 20708 (you have used the armor cap vs 60 level npc which is incorrect to apply for main tank since your targets are counted as 63 level (BOSS)), so without cappign it you are capable of receiving the crit damage so the whole point of being feral tank is lost after it since you can't def cap with druid whatsoever in whole vanilla.
    And i won't even check if you have used correct formula to count the druid's armor in dire bear form with 5/5 Thick Hide:
    Armor = 4.6*1.1*(Base Armor) + 2*(Agility) + (Other Bonuses) + 110
    These are not my calculations, these are numbers taken from a previous post, used as an example as to why Warriors can tank, and Druids can not.
    I point out here that these are highly suspect numbers and very likely incorrect for a multitude of reasons, but even WITH all these innacuracies, a Druid doesent fair that poorly.

    You are absolutely correct on the armour ammounts, for example the T3 warrior with 12332 armour, would only be at 62.8% damage reduction, and not 69.2% as this data suggested, meanwhile the druid, even in the best gear available here is still about 5k armour below where he should be in blues, so overall very innacurate data.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    That's why I said his math may as well be bullshit, guess it was shot down right there as expected.
    When will people actually read an entire post and stop just jumping to conclusions? That whole last post was using incorrect private server stats, to prove a point that even WITH these innaccuracies, Druids are still fine, i literally spend a whole section talking about why this data is not to be taken seriously.

    Before that i go through comparing my math with screenshots from reputable tanks progressing through Naxx, and clearly see that my "made up" stats, are basically spot on. Now please, show me -one- instance of where my math is incorrect and why Druids simply can not tank.

  3. #443
    You brought incorrect defense cap and argued that druids can reach defense cap. Apparently you were wrong, basing your math on incorrect data makes it irrelevant.

    Logic.

    The fact you did not pick up that armor requirement is wrong just shows that you yourself don't know much and puts everything else a suspect too.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    You brought incorrect defense cap and argued that druids can reach defense cap. Apparently you were wrong, basing your math on incorrect data makes it irrelevant.

    Logic.

    The fact you did not pick up that armor requirement is wrong just shows that you yourself don't know much and puts everything else a suspect too.
    you do know there was +def cloth even. i dont think they would have a problem finding +def leather.
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  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Xecks View Post
    you do know there was +def cloth even. i dont think they would have a problem finding +def leather.
    the only pieces with +def for druids were cape, neck, trinket(s) and rings - by far not enough to come close to the 440 (or rather +140) def required for crit immunity. druids never focused on +def in vanilla.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Loxotron View Post
    Your numbers are wrong
    It's apparently too much to ask for some user's to read a post in it's entirety and the info it is referring too in an attempt to understand it before replying.

    On Page 22, comment #429, ydraw posted data from a modified private server (issue #1). Holian's response was to use that data, data which showed favor in gear, buffs and low boss damage towards the warrior (issue #2). Patchwerk was specifically mentioned because Patchwerk was the only constant hardest hitting boss in the game at the time. If we use Patchwerk in a comparison we can get a clear baseline for damage done since his damage was constant, from there we can make a accurate comparison. Not only did ydraw not find and post data comparing a warrior and druid tank against Patchwerk (issue #3), he posted data comparing both tanks against one of the weakest melee damage bosses in the game, Sulfuron Harbinger, the data he provided also favors the warrior in terms of gear and buffs (issue #4). Furthermore, Holian took this flawed, incorrect data and explained the end result.

    Seriously, how many issues is someone allowed while posting incorrect data from a modified private server while making a flawed comparison before people see problems? 5? 10? This is absurd.

    If anyone here would like to do math before jumping to more conclusions, you can see that the data which ydraw provided on page 22 comment #429 heavily favored the warrior in terms of buffs, gear used, and one of the weakest hitting bosses in the game.

    As if that wasn't clear enough, in his reply to ydraw's data, holian explained the following in the post which you responded to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Holian View Post
    So with the gear used in these tests, the warrior becomes the winner in all categories in full T3, with every conceivable buff, cool.

    Now let's list all the reasons this data is kinda misleading.

    1, This is private server data.
    2, Incorrect gearing options for the druid, even in full tier 3 he's not armour capped, something that can be achieved in blues, showing a clear lack of knowledge of how the class functions.
    3, All testing was done against a boss (Sulfuron Harbinger) with relatively weak melee hits, something that heavily favors Warriors.
    4, Every buff known to man was used, and the stats themselves are highly dubious, this warrior is competing statswise in his T1 with Kungen while he's progressing Naxx 40, this being on a private servers makes all of these numbers highly suspect.
    5, Far too small sample size to be statistically relevant, even between the different factions samples, Alliance vs Horde Warrior tank in almost the same gear, in some cases here the damage intake varies by 20-40%, same thing happens with the druid in multiple samples.

    But even IF we grant that these numbers are accurate, all this data shows is that Warriors are more mana efficient to heal than a Druid, someting we already knew.

    So let's go over your statements.

    1, Druids take almost twice as much damage as warriors. -In terms of overall damage, in T3, yes, If we compare average hits it's 810 damage vs 1107 damage on average... not exactly a mindblowing difference.
    2, They take damage in a much burstier fashion. -This is very true, Warriors are the kings of smooth damage intake.
    3, Your druid tank will be a huge drain on your healers. -Eventually in T2 and T3, yes a druid will require far more healing. But when progressing Onyxia/MC and BWL, not so much, and again, this is with a very poorly geared druid, what kind of druid doesent armour cap? Going from 70% to 75% damage reduction is an effective 20% damage reduction. (math example, 1000 unmitigated damage, 70% brings it down to 300 damage, 75% brings it down to 250 damage, 250-300 is a 20% difference.)
    4, Assuming he doesen't straight up die to a streak of 2 big hits. -Complete nonsense, even factoring in crits, the statistics you yourself linked shows that the largest hits a Druid -ever- take, are comperable to those taken by a warrior. Any hits that can 2 shot a Druid, will also 2 shot a Warrior, even factoring in Crits on the Druid and regular Hits on the Warrior.
    Had you actually read the above quote before going off a tangent you would have realized several issues with the data which ydraw provided, issues that render your comment pointless, Loxotron. Your above post which I quoted could have been avoided had you at least attempted to read Holian's response in it's entirety.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    None of us are "against" druids being a main tank. We are against the poor class balance that existed in Vanilla.

    I think it would be great if Druids and Paladins could be main tanks. But they can't if there are no changes.
    You are and have been insistent that druids could not be a main tank. Not only was the data which you provided incorrect, but it was from a modified private server. Before you decide to again post something like: "None of us are "against" druids being a main tank" you might want to go back and re-read what you have posted in this thread, here's one:

    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    No dude. They weren't rare, they were non existent. It wasn't about what people thought, it was about the facts of the mechanics of the game. No class except warriors could tank anything except a few gimmick fights. Bosses were designed around being tanked by a warrior and nothing else. Itemisation was designed around warriors being the only tanks.

    The other classes had rubbish threat, took way more damage, and didn't have a taunt in the case of paladins. They never tanked anything other than dungeons.

    You can misremember it all you want, the fact is if you want to tank in Vanilla, you will have to roll a Warrior, end of story.

    In The Burning Crusade it was possible for Paladins and Druids to tank around 75% of the bosses. Not in Vanilla.
    First it was that druid's couldn't be a main tank. Then, threat was an issue. Then it changed to druids could only be a main tank when overgeared. Now it's:

    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    None of us are "against" druids being a main tank. We are against the poor class balance that existed in Vanilla.

    I think it would be great if Druids and Paladins could be main tanks. But they can't if there are no changes.
    Would you like to modify your point of view for a 4th time? You flip flop more than a politician does when they are caught doing something illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    That's why I said his math may as well be bullshit, guess it was shot down right there as expected.
    It wasn't Holian's math. Holian took the data, which ydraw posted, which came from a modified private server. Even though this data was flawed and in favor of the warrior in terms of gear, buffs and boss damage, all the data showed is what has been known for 13 years - that warrior tanks are more mana efficient to heal than a druid tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    You brought incorrect defense cap and argued that druids can reach defense cap. Apparently you were wrong, basing your math on incorrect data makes it irrelevant.

    Logic.

    The fact you did not pick up that armor requirement is wrong just shows that you yourself don't know much and puts everything else a suspect too.
    Once. Again. Holian. Didn't. Provide. The. Data. That. You. Are. Referring. To.

    Are you starting to understand yet? Or do I have to post that in font size 20 and a bright color? The data was taken from ydraw's post on page 22, comment #429. Holian used that data to show the inaccuracies of the data itself and the end result, Holian even explained the inaccuracies with this data in that very same post. The person that you should have an issue with is ydraw for posting that flawed data in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    You brought incorrect defense cap and argued that druids can reach defense cap.
    For the 3rd time, Holian didn't bring anything incorrect. Your comment of "You brought incorrect defense cap" is moot because ydraw brought the data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    The fact you did not pick up that armor requirement is wrong just shows that you yourself don't know much and puts everything else a suspect too.
    Wow, just wow. You don't take offense with incorrect flawed data being used as evidence by ydraw, you instead take offense with a poster who humbled ydraw by showing that the data only proves druid tanks take more damage than a warrior tank, something that has been known for 13 years.

    I'm really trying to understand your point of view here, you essentially blamed Holian for looking over an inaccuracy which was already proven to be inaccurate. Not only that, but you blamed a poster for using data that an entirely separate user originally posted, a user that showed the data was incomplete and inaccurate.....I'm speechless.

    That would be like me going to court for a speeding ticket and insisting that not only was it not my fault, but it was the fault of a person in another country 6,000 miles away.
    Last edited by Epoch; 2018-02-27 at 02:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 25165453757
    I am excite

  7. #447
    Lots of words, but bottom line is Druids were shit Warriors when it came to tanking. End of story.

    Taking twice the damage for the same end effect and putting strain on healers they should not deal with to begin with. That is not viable.in the same fashion as dealing 40% less damage than proper damage dealers for DPS.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Lots of words, but bottom line is Druids were shit Warriors when it came to tanking. End of story.

    Taking twice the damage for the same end effect and putting strain on healers they should not deal with to begin with. That is not viable.in the same fashion as dealing 40% less damage than proper damage dealers for DPS.
    i dont know how many times i have to say it but here it goes again.

    druids could and did def cap. yes. there was plenty a gear pieces out there to give +def that were tanking pieces. there were def and armor capped druids who wore level 50 blue helms. there was +def cloth ffs. to say they couldnt get crit immune is pure bullshit.

    the thing that makes it something of an issue is crushing blows which they had no way to take off the table like warriors had with shield block. a bad run of 2 or 3 crushes would kill any tank even a same level of gear warrior.

    i personally raided with the 3rd best guild on my server. i did all the raids and only got 4-5 bosses into naxx with spider wing completed. all the tanks that werent prot went in as fury or arms. there were 6 of us who were offtanks. almost all of us including 1 prot main tank and one main offtank had no clue about using shield block. i think the mt knew and later the mot knew, but every other tank diddnt use it and diddnt care.

    so that meant a guild that cleared all the content and 5 bosses into naxx had tanks with less hp and less dr than a similarly geared druid tank took crushing blows all that time and just thought that was how it was. you would not take alot of damage and then you would take a shit ton.

    so in conclusion if a warrior can tank without shield block and get crushed a good chunk of the time and survive, a decently geared druid who has what 2k more hp and 75% dmg reduction and is crit immune can do it. if not better than the warrior.

    its just numbers.
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  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Xecks View Post
    i dont know how many times i have to say it but here it goes again.

    druids could and did def cap. yes. there was plenty a gear pieces out there to give +def that were tanking pieces. there were def and armor capped druids who wore level 50 blue helms. there was +def cloth ffs. to say they couldnt get crit immune is pure bullshit.

    the thing that makes it something of an issue is crushing blows which they had no way to take off the table like warriors had with shield block. a bad run of 2 or 3 crushes would kill any tank even a same level of gear warrior.

    i personally raided with the 3rd best guild on my server. i did all the raids and only got 4-5 bosses into naxx with spider wing completed. all the tanks that werent prot went in as fury or arms. there were 6 of us who were offtanks. almost all of us including 1 prot main tank and one main offtank had no clue about using shield block. i think the mt knew and later the mot knew, but every other tank diddnt use it and diddnt care.

    so that meant a guild that cleared all the content and 5 bosses into naxx had tanks with less hp and less dr than a similarly geared druid tank took crushing blows all that time and just thought that was how it was. you would not take alot of damage and then you would take a shit ton.

    so in conclusion if a warrior can tank without shield block and get crushed a good chunk of the time and survive, a decently geared druid who has what 2k more hp and 75% dmg reduction and is crit immune can do it. if not better than the warrior.

    its just numbers.
    You are wrong about the def cap, you couldn't reach it as druid period.
    First of all it was impossible to reach 75% reduction, just stop providing false information, druid was lacking like 5-6 k of armor as minumum till the cap.
    Second, privates servers works not as intended, stop getting data from there since there was no +defense affix in vanilla, it was introduced in pre TBC patch, your random stats could only be "of the owl, bear, eagle" and etc which has provides randoms stats but never of healing/defense!
    AS druid tank you were lacking around 40 defense till the cap with all bis gear, so no, u weren't capped.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Epoch View Post
    It's apparently too much to ask for some user's to read a post in it's entirety and the info it is referring too in an attempt to understand it before replying.

    On Page 22, comment #429, ydraw posted data from a modified private server (issue #1). Holian's response was to use that data, data which showed favor in gear, buffs and low boss damage towards the warrior (issue #2). Patchwerk was specifically mentioned because Patchwerk was the only constant hardest hitting boss in the game at the time. If we use Patchwerk in a comparison we can get a clear baseline for damage done since his damage was constant, from there we can make a accurate comparison. Not only did ydraw not find and post data comparing a warrior and druid tank against Patchwerk (issue #3), he posted data comparing both tanks against one of the weakest melee damage bosses in the game, Sulfuron Harbinger, the data he provided also favors the warrior in terms of gear and buffs (issue #4). Furthermore, Holian took this flawed, incorrect data and explained the end result.

    Seriously, how many issues is someone allowed while posting incorrect data from a modified private server while making a flawed comparison before people see problems? 5? 10? This is absurd.

    If anyone here would like to do math before jumping to more conclusions, you can see that the data which ydraw provided on page 22 comment #429 heavily favored the warrior in terms of buffs, gear used, and one of the weakest hitting bosses in the game.

    As if that wasn't clear enough, in his reply to ydraw's data, holian explained the following in the post which you responded to:



    Had you actually read the above quote before going off a tangent you would have realized several issues with the data which ydraw provided, issues that render your comment pointless, Loxotron. Your above post which I quoted could have been avoided had you at least attempted to read Holian's response in it's entirety.



    You are and have been insistent that druids could not be a main tank. Not only was the data which you provided incorrect, but it was from a modified private server. Before you decide to again post something like: "None of us are "against" druids being a main tank" you might want to go back and re-read what you have posted in this thread, here's one:



    First it was that druid's couldn't be a main tank. Then, threat was an issue. Then it changed to druids could only be a main tank when overgeared. Now it's:



    Would you like to modify your point of view for a 4th time? You flip flop more than a politician does when they are caught doing something illegal.



    It wasn't Holian's math. Holian took the data, which ydraw posted, which came from a modified private server. Even though this data was flawed and in favor of the warrior in terms of gear, buffs and boss damage, all the data showed is what has been known for 13 years - that warrior tanks are more mana efficient to heal than a druid tank.



    Once. Again. Holian. Didn't. Provide. The. Data. That. You. Are. Referring. To.

    Are you starting to understand yet? Or do I have to post that in font size 20 and a bright color? The data was taken from ydraw's post on page 22, comment #429. Holian used that data to show the inaccuracies of the data itself and the end result, Holian even explained the inaccuracies with this data in that very same post. The person that you should have an issue with is ydraw for posting that flawed data in the first place.



    For the 3rd time, Holian didn't bring anything incorrect. Your comment of "You brought incorrect defense cap" is moot because ydraw brought the data.



    Wow, just wow. You don't take offense with incorrect flawed data being used as evidence by ydraw, you instead take offense with a poster who humbled ydraw by showing that the data only proves druid tanks take more damage than a warrior tank, something that has been known for 13 years.

    I'm really trying to understand your point of view here, you essentially blamed Holian for looking over an inaccuracy which was already proven to be inaccurate. Not only that, but you blamed a poster for using data that an entirely separate user originally posted, a user that showed the data was incomplete and inaccurate.....I'm speechless.

    That would be like me going to court for a speeding ticket and insisting that not only was it not my fault, but it was the fault of a person in another country 6,000 miles away.
    I won't be going into who has posted what, just pointed out that the data of caps is incorrect and druid couldn't cap the defense and armor, thats it.
    Also taking in considiration druid didn't have any mitigation like defence stance for spells as well, it was just plain inferior to warrior in all aspects and scaled way worse with pots/buffs.

  10. #450
    I don't see how druids even get close to 400 def. The only pieces to get defense are cloak, rings, neck and trinkets and the T2.5 set bonus. Even with the maxed-out def stat on each item, you will barely break the 350s.

    Furthermore even there was a level 50 helmet with def around, armour is the key stat for druid tanks. No way a druid would gear a cloth piece as a tank in vanilla oO

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Xecks View Post
    i dont know how many times i have to say it but here it goes again.

    druids could and did def cap. yes. there was plenty a gear pieces out there to give +def that were tanking pieces. there were def and armor capped druids who wore level 50 blue helms. there was +def cloth ffs. to say they couldnt get crit immune is pure bullshit.
    You are wrong, but feel free to provide item list which successfully reaches defense cap as druid. I'll be waiting.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    You brought incorrect defense cap and argued that druids can reach defense cap. Apparently you were wrong, basing your math on incorrect data makes it irrelevant.

    Logic.

    The fact you did not pick up that armor requirement is wrong just shows that you yourself don't know much and puts everything else a suspect too.
    Please show me where i EVER argued that Druids could defense cap.

    Any math i have posted myself used the actual ingame numbers from 2006, during Naxx from screenshots provided by current Naxx raiders such as Kungen.

    Please quote me on a single time in this thread where i have posted incorrect math and how this correlates to Druids inability to tank.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Druids did -not- defense cap in Vanilla, it MIGHT be possible with a weird setup, but the whole point of Druid tanking was getting so much armour that crits simply didn't matter. Please stop arguing this point, it detracts from the validity of the other things we've argued for here.

    Even with crits, it simply did not matter, yes you would require more mana to heal... but that's the only real downside, wich is significant, but certainly doesent make it impossible. Unless someone chimes in here with some actual math as to why a Druid CANT tank (note, -CANT-, not sub optimal) I'm done here, it really doesent matter in the end, and arguing with people that have already formed opinions and make "counter argurments" while reading half of your post, is pointless.

    At the end of the day we're just here to enjoy a game. <3

  13. #453
    I think that the point is “in Vanilla, would you pick a pally tank or a bear tank in a raid in place of a warrior -if you can choose-?”.

    Short answer is no. They could work, but 9/10 of the guilds won’t simply care enough to risk wiping. I was there too at that time and I don’t recall ANY guild on my server having a Bear tank in raid. Top guilds will choose war to progress faster, mid to low guilds will choose warrior to be more comfortable.

    I won’t say it will impossible to find a guild which allows a Bear tank, but it will be VERY difficult to find one.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    I don't see how druids even get close to 400 def. The only pieces to get defense are cloak, rings, neck and trinkets and the T2.5 set bonus. Even with the maxed-out def stat on each item, you will barely break the 350s.

    Furthermore even there was a level 50 helmet with def around, armour is the key stat for druid tanks. No way a druid would gear a cloth piece as a tank in vanilla oO
    + warden stuff as weapon, but ye it would be around 370 at best.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Holian View Post
    Please show me where i EVER argued that Druids could defense cap.

    Any math i have posted myself used the actual ingame numbers from 2006, during Naxx from screenshots provided by current Naxx raiders such as Kungen.

    Please quote me on a single time in this thread where i have posted incorrect math and how this correlates to Druids inability to tank.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Druids did -not- defense cap in Vanilla, it MIGHT be possible with a weird setup, but the whole point of Druid tanking was getting so much armour that crits simply didn't matter. Please stop arguing this point, it detracts from the validity of the other things we've argued for here.

    Even with crits, it simply did not matter, yes you would require more mana to heal... but that's the only real downside, wich is significant, but certainly doesent make it impossible. Unless someone chimes in here with some actual math as to why a Druid CANT tank (note, -CANT-, not sub optimal) I'm done here, it really doesent matter in the end, and arguing with people that have already formed opinions and make "counter argurments" while reading half of your post, is pointless.

    At the end of the day we're just here to enjoy a game. <3
    Wrong, the difference in mitigation between warrior and druid is like 5-10 percent in armor while warrior recieves on 10% less damage in defensive stance which compensate it and BIG factor aside from def cap is block value and active shield block ability.
    The difference in receiving damage is actually very significant and on some encounters such druid can actually get a crit MS one shot.
    Some bosses had unbalancing strikes which has greatly recuded your defence (-100 if i remember it correctly) and warrior at least had enough of avoidence (shiled block/parry/dodge) to live through it while druid was handicaped only to rely on dodge (doubt you could even pass 20% in tanking gear).
    Last edited by Loxotron; 2018-02-27 at 11:32 AM.

  15. #455
    i was wrong about the def cap.
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  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Holian View Post
    the whole point of Druid tanking was getting so much armour that crits simply didn't matter.
    Crits always mattered, which is why druids took twice as much damage. Stop dribbling.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xecks View Post
    i was wrong about the def cap.
    We know. You were also wrong about most everything else.

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