1. #1

    Does anyone know if there's a problem with netherlord and simcraft?

    Grand insignia currently outsims my netherlord by about 1.1%, which makes literally no sense to me. My traits aren't amazing. Should I trust this, or just keep using nether?

  2. #2
    Afaik netherlord doesnt sim right

    Grain of salt
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  3. #3
    Are you sure they're both the same ilvl?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Are you sure they're both the same ilvl?
    Yes, they're the same ilevel.

  5. #5
    Netherlord is actually one of the weakest legendaries in sims, this is normal, it gains great value on bosses that have execute phases(like Imonar), more than 1 target to benefit from the execute or lots of retards in your guild that die.
    It also greatly loses value if you don't pool resources or SH for it.
    It has very very shitty stats, the insignia trinket has almost 1/3 more secondary stats, take a look.
    Basically like someone else said earlier, it can't be simmed right because fights are not perfect simulations.
    Last edited by Nigmatar; 2017-12-16 at 08:55 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    Grand insignia currently outsims my netherlord by about 1.1%, which makes literally no sense to me. My traits aren't amazing. Should I trust this, or just keep using nether?
    Why does it make no sense?

    Also the class ring does not effect SL if you're wearing T21 and have swapped over.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Spikeyshadow View Post
    Also the class ring does not effect SL if you're wearing T21 and have swapped over.
    Could you elaborate more on this please?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Spikeyshadow View Post
    Why does it make no sense?

    Also the class ring does not effect SL if you're wearing T21 and have swapped over.

    Because there's just no way death's embrace is worse than that ring, even less likely with how bad my traits are.

    And yes, swapping to SC makes up for some of the gap, but grand insignia sims 0.5% better even without SL. I've noticed this with other set ups as well which leads me to believe the ring is just hard to sim.

    Simcraft is telling me the fucking bracers are better than netherlord, which is just in no way possible.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    Because there's just no way death's embrace is worse than that ring, even less likely with how bad my traits are.

    And yes, swapping to SC makes up for some of the gap, but grand insignia sims 0.5% better even without SL. I've noticed this with other set ups as well which leads me to believe the ring is just hard to sim.

    Simcraft is telling me the fucking bracers are better than netherlord, which is just in no way possible.
    Like others have said it sims low because of how boss HP goes down in sims but unless a lot of your raid dies Netherlord for overall damage is by no means as good as many people think. If you need the damage in execute though that is a different matter but on certain fights, AHC and Coven mythic come to mind, you are probably better taking DE anyhow.

    Assuming you are wearing T21 4 set only then helm and belt should be pretty good if you have them. Perhaps neck though a lot of Affy leggos are really close together so it depends on what off pieces you have. Also Sacro and Sephuz have their place on certain fights as well. Anyhow, if you check out the mythic stats for leggos perhaps you will see what I mean. Bear in mind with dropping T20 and/or taking SL we have lost quite a bit of shard gen.

    You are just looking at tier 2 for the traits right? Insignia is a decent legendary though it depends on shadow/light traits but for most people indeed it is not one of the top ones though there are some seriously impressive logs out there with it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurange View Post
    Could you elaborate more on this please?
    T21 4 set bonus also effects Siphon Life (SL) hence it has gained some value over SC.

    You could also argue with the lower shard gen with losing T20 2 set and the haste buff from the 4 set that SC should give less refunds as well. Or in contrast as we have less shard gen then every refund becomes a lot more valueable. Sorry, getting a little too waylaid here.

    Death's Embrace on the other hand does not effect SL so the two talents together have no synergy.

    The difference between talents for most people is quite minor however sim your character to find out how much and whether it's worth it to you to start using SL more on certain fights. Some people like it, some find it a bit much. I actually prefer the consistency and find Wia-Cont/AC-SH- SL rather fun. If you have it and haven't tried it out yet also give the leggo helm a whirl as that has great synergy with T21.
    Last edited by Spikeyshadow; 2017-12-16 at 01:32 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    Because there's just no way death's embrace is worse than that ring, even less likely with how bad my traits are.

    And yes, swapping to SC makes up for some of the gap, but grand insignia sims 0.5% better even without SL. I've noticed this with other set ups as well which leads me to believe the ring is just hard to sim.

    Simcraft is telling me the fucking bracers are better than netherlord, which is just in no way possible.
    You kind of have to ignore a lot of these sims when it comes to affliction legendary choice depending on fight, some legendaries are just better than others even if they look numerically weak on sims, you can find this happen on a lot of actual fights where you can take advantage of sephuz for example.
    Best you can do is test them for yourself in a real fight, many people do this, they try strong leg combinations every week until they find one they like.
    It's just hard to quantify legs like netherlord in a real raid setting.
    But rest assured its very good on most fights and I would use it over Insignia any day.
    Last edited by Nigmatar; 2017-12-16 at 10:30 PM.

  11. #11
    I would guess there is a lot of fights where there is more than one execute, or the execution is prolonged.

  12. #12
    the sim you use doesn't sim netherlord right is because how the sim works for execution, in fact it never is accurate in terms of true value of execution.

    in reality the execution starts at sub 35%hp regardless times, and what sims assume is that, if the boss takes 100 secs to be killed, your execution will start to effect at very last 35 secs.

    you see that's the problem, with pre pot+big CDs+hero on pull(not necessarily on pull every time but timing of lust is a huge factor). you're definitely reaching 35% faster, not to mention if you have big burst classes like dhs,ret and dks but lack of sustained damage. you will find that the last 35% last much longer per % than the first 65%.

    in other words, the huge spike of dps on pull shortens the first 65% and makes the last 35% longer. so it contradicts what sim is trying to do. plus like people mentioned above, you will have people fuck up mechanics and die towards the end, it even happens in the world first raiding guild, so yeah it's another huge factor that sim doesn't account.

  13. #13
    It is not ToS anymore, the execute ring is pretty bad plain and simple. It suffers from multiple weaknesses as have already been stated. At ilvl 1000 its stats are comparable to a 935 ring while the Insignia you are asking about is a huge stat stick, aff loves secondary stats and the loss of secondaries on netherlord at ilvl 1000 is not outweighed by getting the DE talent. DE is only good on a limited number of fights this tier and most of the time you are better off just taking DE and running better dps legos such as prydaz, belt or helm.

    The other big problem with netherlord is that not running SC on as many fights also significantly decreases its value, SC combined with the T20 4p allowed for incredible burst windows in execute phase. Now that we have neither SC or T20 4p that burst potential is mostly gone. If you have been paying attention to top parses on WCL you will have noticed that in the early weeks of the tier many top logs were using netherlord/belt but also T20 4p and SC, as people are getting more antorus gear you now see that many top logs are running SL with prydaz/helm or helm/belt. The fact that prydaz is all over the top parses should further explain why the insignia is simming so well for you, again warlocks love secondary stats and insignia has a ton of them.

    A final point against netherlord is that the top parses you still see using it are running SC and they are outliers where the people running that talent set up and lego got extremely lucky with procs to achieve that damage. While the top SL/DE parses you see are also outliers that got extremely lucky with 2p T21 procs mostly, the median damage of the parses not using netherlord are much higher than the median parses using netherlord. If you favor extremely swingy damage output and only care about possibly getting a top parse 1/100 pulls then maybe netherlord/SC is for you. If you however value much more consistent damage output that also has a chance to get great RNG and have a top parse then it's time to move away from netherlord and on to more consistent set ups.

    To sum it up as you get higher ilvl overall the value of netherlord falls off completely to the point where its not worth using past the first few weeks of the tier which have already passed. If Death's Embrace is good on a certain fight(High Command, Eonar, Portal Keeper, Coven) you are far better off just selecting that talent and using other legos that will increase your DPS even Insignia. Fwiw I am 963 simming just under 2 mil DPS and Insignia is my third highest simming ST lego after prydaz and helm.

    Edit: Forgot to mention as far as I know everything that has been said about netherlord simming wrong is almost entirely invalid. Yes sometimes simcraft models the damage pattern of a fight wrong and the 35-0 phase takes slightly more time proportionately than it should but this difference is usually minimal and is also usually compensated by the fact there are other execute classes in most raid groups that in practice should make the execute phase last a similar amount of time as other phases of the fight. If for some reason a fight existed where the 35-0% portion of the fight took a high percentage of the time of the fight say 45-50% of the fight time then the ring would go up in value however this is not the case for any of the fights in antorus that I am aware of.

    You can easily see that most fights in practice have very similar timings for phases by looking at logs and checking enemies->Resources->Hit Points and looking at the slope of the line, the slope of that line remains almost exactly the same throughout all phases of the fight. Here is a log of my guilds first varimathras kill https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ty=1&source=30 just glancing at the line shows that the damage is relatively consistent over all phases of the fight. Lets check the actual difference in phase times though the boss has approximately 7 billion health, the first 35% is over when the boss reaches ~4.55 billion HP this occurs at 1:24 this is with lust on pull. The final 35% begins when the boss has ~2.45 billion HP this occurs at 2:54 and the whole fight lasted 4:35 meaning the last 35% took 1:39 a difference of 15 seconds over the first 35%. This difference is pretty minimal and will barely increase the value of netherlord on sims if warcraftlogs modeled the damage in this pattern. You can look at the line for the HP of bosses for other bosses and notice the same thing in most cases the slope of this line will be fairly consistent from start to end making the argument about length of execute phase in sims pretty much moot. The difference in length of execute vs the rest of the fight would have to be very extreme for netherlord to outweigh the weaknesses it has.

    TLDR: Netherlord ring is bad and almost all parses you see using it probably shouldn't be.
    Last edited by VarianceWoW; 2017-12-24 at 03:22 PM.

  14. #14
    There are already some valuable answers here, so I will go a little off-topic, just give you a different perspective to add onto those.

    SC+Netherlord+t20 setup was easy to play. Few things to decide on the go -fewer things to improvise. Few, and very clear rules to go by. Add rng outliers to that, and that's how you see the top parses of the first few weeks. "Rotation" paradigms of t21 isn't like that. It is still -thankfully- miles away from firelands era demonology (in which you used 3 different fillers, 3 different dots, 4 with shadowflame, 3 big CDs, 2 different perma pets in a fight, not counting trinket etc procs), but still considerably easier to f..k things up compared to T20 era affliction. I see warlocks having a difficult time with that, and I regularly see them switching back to their SC+Netherlord setups, and do better dps.

    Theoretical potential is one thing, practice is other.
    Last edited by Sartre; 2017-12-24 at 07:02 PM.

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