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  1. #41
    Mechagnome Skoll Shorties's Avatar
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    I definitely do not think she is a poorly written character. In fact she is pretty well written in most regards.

    But more so its my manner of perspective I grew up with Jaina being very kind hearted selfless person who wanted nothing more than red and blue to be a little purple. Then her city gets nuked by the controversial Garrosh and she flips from being that peaceful person into a hate raging woman who wants nothing more than the Horde to die out.

    Its understandable I understand that part I am not saying it makes no sense she's forgiven the Horde right on the spot. But when you have characters like Baine, Thrall, and Vol'jin who are -trying- to make amends and you have Jaina say one thing and go to the next and then continue to ride that train of hate that's another thing right on its own. I can't tell if she's making baby steps or running backwards right into herself.

    Her character makes sense to be a raging ball of hatred but that doesn't mean I like it - honestly I prefer the Jaina of old but I realize that Jaina died in Theramore (as so many claim she actually did and a Dreadlord took her place). I have love hate relationship with Jaina and I look forward to seeing what they do with her in BfA as well as many of the other main characters like Thrall, Sylvanas, Anduin, etc.

    "Only Beasts are above deceit" - Rexxar

  2. #42
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Anduin didn't look much like a pussy to me in the cinematic
    He kinda looked like a pretty sex-toy boy if you ask me. A must have for every rich, debaucherous woman.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyduke View Post
    It seems a lot of people seem to think she is poorly written. I happen to very much disagree with that sentiment.

    I understand why a lot of people hate her, but the "LOL dreadlord" part seems utterly ludicrous to me (And to Blizzard as well, thank god).

    I think she has seen the most character development out of anyone in the game except for Sylvanas, and it has been a very good development.

    That does not mean making her popular or sympathetic, but developing her in interesting ways.

    She started off (in WC3) as a wide eyed naive Kirin Tor student, in love with Arthas.

    She lived through: Arthas decimating Stratholme. Arthas killing his father and becoming a death knight. Antonidas (her teacher and mentor) being killed by Arthas as a death knight. Fleeing to Kalimdor, and building Theramore there.

    She was so convinced of peace being a tangible possibility, that she decided to let her father die to the Horde and Co. instead of fighting with him against them (a decision I am sure she has come to dearly regret, and which haunts her to the day). She founded Theramore close to Orgrimmar, and was a huge fan of Thrall and trusted him utterly.

    And then she was betrayed. The first thing Garrosh did when he became warchief was bomb her city. She only survived barely, along with Vereesa. And no one in the Horde seemed shocked by this: In the end Garrosh was Warchief for two whole expansions. After Theramore was bombed, no Horde leaders revolted at the methods. Sure, they talked about it, but the deed was done.

    I don't understand what people expect out of her: Of course she's not going to "get over it." No one would in her place. Especially given her past. And the fact she believed so much in peace.

    After that eventually gains control of the Kirin Tor, after discovering the Horde was working against her in a neutral city, and that they were directly responsible for the bombing of her city. Then she loses it to Khaddgar (attribute it to lazy writing by Blizzard because Dalaran is an easy neutral hub).

    Another shock.

    Her evolution is logical: Wide eyed girl, peace believer, gets betrayed by the Horde and hates them now. Stops believing all the talk of "We are the NEW Horde", because in the end it's a convenient excuse to shed responsibility. Drinking the blood of demons and razing Stormwind is because of the old Horde, bombing Theramore was Garrosh, etc... She now sees the whole Horde leadership as shirking responsibilities.

    Again, it does not make her likeable, it makes hes strident and possibly a bit unbalanced, but now adamantly against the Horde.

    I personally can't wait to see what her reunion with her mother brings. What do you guys think?
    The Jaina character is not bad because of what she has done. It all comes from what she has not done and from her absence in the story.

    Like Jaina from Warcraft 3 to MoP was pretty cool, but then she just started ignoring the world and that makes her character weak. She was so motivated at the end of MoP and then she just does nothing? I get, that it has more to do with how Blizzard hides and highlights characters in each expansion, but it really hurt her character alot, that she got pushed away for 2 expansions.

    She can still come back and become a great character again - It will just be hard if they don't explain why she suddenly stopped giving a fuck about everything. It is like with Vol'jin, Wrathion and to some extent Sylvanas and Anduin in Legion. They set these characters up to have really important roles in the story, yet they get pushed under the rug rather quickly and situaitons, which match their story, and where they would could act and do many story-related things, are passed by. Having this happend, sadly makes it hard to create good characters in the end.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    With Sylvannas as warchief, you guys are villains. Get over it.
    So far Alliance seems to attack the Horde, not the other way around. The Horde only reacts. How nice that when Alliance had to react to things (even though they also started the previous war) it was a point to QQ about HORDE BIAS COVFEFE and about how mean the Horde is. But Horde reacting to things is somehow the Horde being the villains.
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    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  5. #45
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    So the Alliance kill a few scouts (which since the Alliance and Horde are still at war - doesn't seem too terrible to me) and the Horde burns down Teldrassil and tries to take Stormwind. Orcs are from another world. Undead shouldn't exist because they're, well, dead. Blood Elves are traitors, not only to the Alliance but the Horde given they would have turned from you, goblins only care about gold/ power. Literally the only two races that are exclusively Horde seem to be Trolls and Tauren, and they make up a tiny amount compared to everyone else. The Horde will always be the villains. They are the cause for the whole Alliance vs Horde thing. Not to mention, they are terrible at electing leaders, Garrosh goes all Hitler, and now you have Sylvannas how is literally no different from Arthas. And yet the Horde seems to pride itself on it's sense of honor. Varian should have dismantled the Horde back in MoP
    And humans, dwarves and gnomes are titanic constructs mutated by old gods. Your point ?

  6. #46
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    I was personally fine with "peacenik" Jaina pre-MoP, although I also found her character a bit dimensionally challenged I thought she was nonetheless realistic and a breath of fresh air in a world where everyone seemed to be clamoring for nonsensical wars amidst world-threatening presences like the Legion, the Lich King, Deathwing, etc. etc. Her heel-face turn during MoP was also fine, and a welcome evolution of her character in terms to her reacting to an extremely traumatic event like the destruction of her city and many of her friends during as a result of a bloodthirsty act of war. I was pleased she avoided the villain ball outright, but instead came out of the affair scarred but whole, her personality duly altered but still a partisan protagonist for the Alliance. Unfortunately, it was around this time that her story-arc begins to break down.

    First she is transmuted from proverbial dove to hawk (understandable given the circumstances). She is then put in charge of the Kirin Tor, a decidedly neutral organization, because of some strange "prophecy" about her that was never an element of story until that moment. As leader of the Kirin Tor she makes a number of rash decisions culminating in the Purge and the transitioning of Dalaran to the Alliance. Putting a recently traumatized Jaina directly into a leadership position fresh from a narrowly averted attempt at genocide (her aborted attack on Orgrimmar with the Focusing Iris) is pretty weird. Then this portrayal gets muted in "War Crimes" as she comes a bit more to grips with the trauma and makes amends to Kalec and even Thrall over her rashness, coldness, and aloof demeanor.

    Come back to WoD and she's right back at the partisan tricks - forbidding Khadgar from aiding what is a joint strike-force on Draenor because of her paranoia about the Horde, seemingly nullifying her development in "War Crimes." Then, in the face of a massive Legion invasion she refuses the aid of the Horde again, because of viewing the events at the Broken Shore as a betrayal by the Horde. She then completely and totally disappears from the story altogether (seemingly until BfA), not rendering *any* aid to the beleaguered world despite circumstances not seen since the War of the Ancients.

    If not "bad writing," Jaina's story post-MoP is decided odd in both tone and pacing.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    So the Alliance kill a few scouts (which since the Alliance and Horde are still at war - doesn't seem too terrible to me) and the Horde burns down Teldrassil and tries to take Stormwind. Orcs are from another world. Undead shouldn't exist because they're, well, dead. Blood Elves are traitors, not only to the Alliance but the Horde given they would have turned from you, goblins only care about gold/ power. Literally the only two races that are exclusively Horde seem to be Trolls and Tauren, and they make up a tiny amount compared to everyone else. The Horde will always be the villains. They are the cause for the whole Alliance vs Horde thing. Not to mention, they are terrible at electing leaders, Garrosh goes all Hitler, and now you have Sylvannas how is literally no different from Arthas. And yet the Horde seems to pride itself on it's sense of honor. Varian should have dismantled the Horde back in MoP
    First of all, we don't know how exactly things escalate. So jumping straight to burning of Teldrassil as an argument is both preliminary and dishonest. Secondly, when did the Horde try to take Stormwind? So far the only mention of Stormwind in regards to the war was the book snippet that indicated Sylvanas wants to invade it. Plans and actions are two different things. Thirdly, even if it goes straight to Teldrassil, Horde's overreaction does not detract from the Alliance attacking first, starts the conflict and is an aggressor. So yay for deflection.

    Also, Draenei are aliens, Night Elves are mutated Trolls, humans, Dwarves and Gnomes are alien robots mutated by alien trans-dimensional monsters, Worgen are alien robots mutated by alien trans-dimensional monsters and then cursed. So like Arrashi said, your point here is just lel.

    And "the only two taces that are exclusively Horde seem to be Trolls and Tauren"? First of all, it's false. Forsaken are also exclusively Horde. Secondly, it has nothing to do with the shitty argument you were making before that. It seems you have lost yourself in the inanity of your own post.

    And how on Earth can you with straight face pin the blame on the Alliance Horde conflict on the "villainous" Horde when both this war and the previous war have been started by the Alliance? The last one was started over actions of people that were no longer Horde and because Varian being the dipshit he was tried to use the Horde losing control of Undercity for a moment as an opportunity to conquer their territory. This one is started because the Alliance apparently can't handle the Horde being the first to grab Azerite.

    Even if you want to pin the entire relations between the factions on Orcs invading Azeroth while ignoring the concept of nuance, then sorry, the Orcs were still brought to Azeroth by Medivh and them being turned into weapons by the Legion was caused by Draenei's 25k years long quest of dooming countless worlds by dragging the Legion behind them.

    And Varian would have died in Orgrimmar if he tried such nonsense. Without Malfurion and Velen the Horde leaders present there overpowered the Alliance ones.

    Finally, Sylvanas doesn't mind control undead, she doesn't wage war against all life, she doesn't sabotage both playable factions with Cult of the Damned-like agents. The claim she's literally no different from Arthas continues to be patently moronic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  8. #48
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    tl;dr, stop being so mad.
    Is that admission of defeat ?

  9. #49
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I legitimately can't be bothered arguing with that guy, it never works
    Yeah, arguing without any good arguments or points usually doesn't work.

  10. #50
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    And yet loads of people here do it so why bother with them. Glad you can see it from my point of view
    Oh im sorry, i wasn't clear enough. YOU are the one without good arguments and points sorry for confusion.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyduke View Post
    It seems a lot of people seem to think she is poorly written. I happen to very much disagree with that sentiment.

    I understand why a lot of people hate her, but the "LOL dreadlord" part seems utterly ludicrous to me (And to Blizzard as well, thank god).

    I think she has seen the most character development out of anyone in the game except for Sylvanas, and it has been a very good development.

    That does not mean making her popular or sympathetic, but developing her in interesting ways.

    She started off (in WC3) as a wide eyed naive Kirin Tor student, in love with Arthas.

    She lived through: Arthas decimating Stratholme. Arthas killing his father and becoming a death knight. Antonidas (her teacher and mentor) being killed by Arthas as a death knight. Fleeing to Kalimdor, and building Theramore there.

    She was so convinced of peace being a tangible possibility, that she decided to let her father die to the Horde and Co. instead of fighting with him against them (a decision I am sure she has come to dearly regret, and which haunts her to the day). She founded Theramore close to Orgrimmar, and was a huge fan of Thrall and trusted him utterly.

    And then she was betrayed. The first thing Garrosh did when he became warchief was bomb her city. She only survived barely, along with Vereesa. And no one in the Horde seemed shocked by this: In the end Garrosh was Warchief for two whole expansions. After Theramore was bombed, no Horde leaders revolted at the methods. Sure, they talked about it, but the deed was done.

    I don't understand what people expect out of her: Of course she's not going to "get over it." No one would in her place. Especially given her past. And the fact she believed so much in peace.

    After that eventually gains control of the Kirin Tor, after discovering the Horde was working against her in a neutral city, and that they were directly responsible for the bombing of her city. Then she loses it to Khaddgar (attribute it to lazy writing by Blizzard because Dalaran is an easy neutral hub).

    Another shock.

    Her evolution is logical: Wide eyed girl, peace believer, gets betrayed by the Horde and hates them now. Stops believing all the talk of "We are the NEW Horde", because in the end it's a convenient excuse to shed responsibility. Drinking the blood of demons and razing Stormwind is because of the old Horde, bombing Theramore was Garrosh, etc... She now sees the whole Horde leadership as shirking responsibilities.

    Again, it does not make her likeable, it makes hes strident and possibly a bit unbalanced, but now adamantly against the Horde.

    I personally can't wait to see what her reunion with her mother brings. What do you guys think?
    Sounds like a classic story of a liberal progressive learning that the world isn't a gender studies class.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethris View Post
    Sounds like a classic story of a liberal progressive learning that the world isn't a gender studies class.
    Why bring real world politics into this?

  13. #53
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atethecat View Post
    Why bring real world politics into this?
    I dunno, but its surprisngly accurate.

    I mean jaina moved from "you fucking white male" guy to azeroth version of alex jones.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by arrashi View Post
    azeroth version of alex jones.
    the royal apothecary society is putting chemicals in the water and its turning the murlocs gay

    Mod Edit: Don't use formatting in this fashion - making your text gigantic is distracting and annoying.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2017-12-21 at 06:58 PM. Reason: Edited for Formatting

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Yeah, arguing without any good arguments or points usually doesn't work.
    What do you mean? Svetlana is Hitler, some Horde players have wet dreams about her, she's Hitler, she's worse than Arthas, Slyvanus hurr hurr hurr and Horde is always the villainous aggressor even when the Alliance attacks them. Instant PhDs in rhetoric, communication sciences, PR, linguistics and sociology.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethris View Post
    the royal apothecary society is putting chemicals in the water and its turning the murlocs gay
    To think of it, they did test some Blight on Murlocs in Cata.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  16. #56
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    To think of it, they did test some Blight on Murlocs in Cata.
    What if sulvonus wants to wipe out living by creating a gay bomb and putting it in stormwind tapwater ? There would be no babies, and no living.

    Oh my god, we may be onto something. I wonder if new book will have some more detail.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Stroggylos View Post
    The events that have been connected with her in a personal level could lead in a really nice series of quest lines and novels. Contrary to that Bliz have developed her in a restrained way for game purposes only. Shame
    ^

    If her constant flip-flopping actually served a purpose beyond "we need her to go villainous so we can pad out Patch Content and attract players to our next Expansion Set" then that's fine. The way things stand, sadly, that's far from the case at all, and Jaina is likely made 'villainous' simply to pander to the PvP and Raid Crowd who want to gank a 'major Lore character in-game' and feel important.

    I don't necessarily agree with Jaina being 'badly written', but she definitely suffers from being lazily written, which is even worse.
    Last edited by Guntank17; 2017-12-24 at 01:00 AM.

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