40 people raids

[Sturmbringe]

I know what DKP is, sadly. And it was shit. We ran with it but stopped a few weeks before TBC hit.

No, it was not shit. It is the fairest loot system there is and pretty much guarantees that nobody can play favourites and shower favourites with gear at the expense of regular attendance raiders.

[Wiedzemir]

I know what DKP is, sadly. And it was shit. We ran with it but stopped a few weeks before TBC hit.

Eh? DKP is the system that rewards those who stick with the raid longest. It's not shit. That's what made raid groups coherent with transparent rules of the loot distribution. The only one who can complain about it is a PUG or a guild hopper.

[Lochton]

No, it was not shit. It is the fairest loot system there is and pretty much guarantees that nobody can play favourites and shower favourites with gear at the expense of regular attendance raiders.

Eh? DKP is the system that rewards those who stick with the raid longest. It's not shit. That's what made raid groups coherent with transparent rules of the loot distribution. The only one who can complain about it is a PUG or a guild hopper.

I didn't say it was unfair, just said shit. I am generally against loot distribution systems that demands outside management. And well, it was an unfair tool if you were pugging people into a 40-man raid, which we were on average to fill the last 4-6 spots. Basically creating useless drama. And then followed with the DKP dumpers who ended up having points enough to swipe something that could benefit someone more.

And I'm sorry, favorites happened even then, with an addition of more points for false attendance.

[Wiedzemir]

I didn't say it was unfair, just said shit. I am generally against loot distribution systems that demands outside management.

So you're against one of the core aspects of an MMORPG. Alright.

And well, it was an unfair tool if you were pugging people into a 40-man raid, which we were on average to fill the last 4-6 spots. Basically creating useless drama.

It's only drama if the PUG didn't understand the rules and that pugs are getting loot only and if only no one else needs it. Then they can roll for it.

And then followed with the DKP dumpers who ended up having points enough to swipe something that could benefit someone more.

Subjective. You think it can benefit you more, the other person thinks the same. In the end it's either DKP or raid leader working as an arbiter. DKP is much more transparent in this case.

And I'm sorry, favorites happened even then, with an addition of more points for false attendance.

Well. That's social aspect. If you get yourself into a shitty guild, stick with it and expect wonders to happen, I'm not sure that this is the problem with the system.

[Lochton]

So you're against one of the core aspects of an MMORPG. Alright.

Where the hell did you read that? I said I was against distribution systems (EPGP, DKP, etc), not against you using your brain.

It's only drama if the PUG didn't understand the rules and that pugs are getting loot only and if only no one else needs it. Then they can roll for it.

Yeah, except at times pugs will play the mindwipe card and whine to a GM. We had to at that point, to have an archive of screenshots to prove that we had announced it as soon as the whole raid was inside.

Subjective. You think it can benefit you more, the other person thinks the same. In the end it's either DKP or raid leader working as an arbiter. DKP is much more transparent in this case.

Well, I wasn't using myself as an example but more a combination what one of our main healers experiences Vs. a DPS. The DPS had banked all his DKP until the one thing he wanted, which was something the healer actually needed more - but then, we ran on the whole DKP system and rules and we were like, 'well, people run DKP like this, so guess the DPS has it'. Lots of gear would have benefitted the DPS more but he declined and banked the points.

Well. That's social aspect. If you get yourself into a shitty guild, stick with it and expect wonders to happen, I'm not sure that this is the problem with the system.

Not a problem with the system, hence I said, 'favorites happened even then'. You could be in a great guild and there would still be some. I was just pointing out that bit, not that it had to do with the system.

[Wiedzemir]

Where the hell did you read that? I said I was against distribution systems, not against you using your brain.

Dude. You're literally complaining against manual distribution of loot.

Yeah, except at times pugs will play the mindwipe card and whine to a GM. We had to at that point, to have an archive of screenshots to prove that we had announced it as soon as the whole raid was inside.

Nonsense and never happened for one simple reason. GM isn't responsible for loot distribution issues. They only got involved if both parties messed up and want to transfer item from one player to another where both agree with it. Also, since you clearly haven't seen it happen in the real world, GMs don't care about your screenshots and they operate with chat logs in cases of disputes (usually concerning trade scams).

Well, I wasn't using myself as an example but more a combination what one of our main healers experiences Vs. a DPS. The DPS had banked all his DKP until the one thing he wanted, which was something the healer actually needed more - but then, we ran on the whole DKP system and rules and we were like, 'well, people run DKP like this, so guess the DPS has it'. Lots of gear would have benefitted the DPS more but he declined and banked the points.

So? Not sure where the problem. The person clearly saved DKP and haven't taken any loot just to get this one item. It's fair. The fact that you're putting a healer one step above DPS clearly shows that DKP is needed because you're against fair distribution of the loot.

Not a problem with the system, hence I said, 'favorites happened even then'. You could be in a great guild and there would still be some. I was just pointing out that bit, not that it had to do with the system.

So what are we discussing here then?

[Armourboy]

Dude don't even sugar code it for them..

People who claim they were "vanilla" players and they claimed they "pugged" raids.. What they mean is they played on some shitty private server for free and now feel entitled to call themselves vanilla players.

There was literally NO PUGGING in real classic wow/vanilla. Because you involved finding 40 players who are attuned to the raid you want to do, who wants to raid at the exact same time with no (or very primitive) search tools - including defense capped warriors, hunters with tranq shot, kiters, mages who knew how to decurse, enough heals and a compotent RL + people that would listen to him, resistance gear for certain fights (yes as early as MC you needed it), certain multi week farm items such as onyxia cloak to be able to clear BWL.
On top of everything else the fucking raids were INSTANCE ID LOCKED. meaning you either clear it all with that 40 people or come back the next day to find another 40 people who are ok with being saved to previous bosses and start from the half cleared raid you had left yesterday. Or you could form the damn raid and find the raid cleared because someone else from the previous day formed a raid before you and cleared it before you could. You can't make 40 man pug to promise to not clear it without each other with conflicting schedules and being locked to same bosses.
all hell would break loose if another person from the yesterday raid also formed his own 40 man to try to clear also now you would try to zone into same fucking instance ID with 2 different raids and try to hijack the raid from each other every time one of the raids wiped.

TL/DR version - Pugging in vanilla DIDN'T happen for the reasons above and more. Your shitty private server experience is not vanilla.

So you played on a shit hole server or something because on Shattered Hand it happened a ton. My wife and I ran ours with a few people from one of the server first guilds that were gearing alts or looking to get gear they didn't get while running some of this stuff for offspecs.

Granted that only extended so far, they weren't pugging AQ40 or Naxx, but just about anything else you could find a pug for.

Now it was filtered a ton, they would choose people they knew had done a good job from previous runs, but as long as you were decent you could find a group to run things with.

They didn't always go well, and certainly weren't as effective as they would become in Wrath, but they did exist, especially in the 20 mans and obviously Ony.

[Deleted]

Ahh 40 man raiding, the pinnacle of bad ideas that sounded cool. Remember when Wildstar tried to recreate it? How'd that go again?

Your reasoning is flawed because you seems to assume wildstar's raiding was bad because it was 40 men based. But, guess what, the number of players in the raid isn't the only factor that makes a raid successful or not. There are hundreds of reasons why PVE in wildstar was bad (the main reason being excessive gating on too little content, the other one being that the games's color were so flashy and it did move so much that you ended raiding cession with motion sickness or a headache).

[Flarelaine]

I know what DKP is, sadly. And it was shit. We ran with it but stopped a few weeks before TBC hit.

I liked DKP system. Especially as every week, I earned 5 points even before setting foot in the raid as I was the guy who could be bothered to go hunt/fish enough to supply the entire raid with feasts for the week. (Granted, that came later.)

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, except at times pugs will play the mindwipe card and whine to a GM. We had to at that point, to have an archive of screenshots to prove that we had announced it as soon as the whole raid was inside.

GMs refused to get involved in loot distribution until mid-WotLK. That change came exactly a week after I got cheated of a Black War Mammoth I won fair and square but which the lootmaster kept anyway.

[Wiedzemir]

GMs refused to get involved in loot distribution until mid-WotLK. That change came exactly a week after I got cheated of a Black War Mammoth I won fair and square but which the lootmaster kept anyway.

Have they actually got involved in cases like this routinely or was it an isolated example? I remember in vanilla and tbc the response was always along the lines of: "you have agreed with him being a loot master so he can distribute loot the way he wants". It makes sense and I'm surprised to hear it changed later down the line.

[Flarelaine]

Have they actually got involved in cases like this routinely or was it an isolated example? I remember in vanilla and tbc the response was always along the lines of: "you have agreed with him being a loot master so he can distribute loot the way he wants". It makes sense and I'm surprised to hear it changed later down the line.

It was, in fact, like that in Vanilla and TBC and early WotLK. It changed around the time when I guess there were too many PUGs clearing the starting Northrend raids (and Wintergrasp) regularly for the mounts (and naturally, the whine was always about the mounts). They changed the policy so if you could prove by logs that loot distribution by rolling was promised, they would actually move the loot to the rightful winner.

[roent]

Means you realistically need about 50-55 resist geared, reliable people in your guild because RL happens. The true challenge of Vanilla.

What a disaster this was, too... I started playing in '06 so I got in relatively late. Reliable != competent... "spam your fastest heal" was the only guidance we got from the raid leader, hah. No class guides, thottbot was your go-to website and it was awful. I think we cleared Molten Core once.

There were some things that were far better in vanilla, but 40-man raids were not one of them.

[iamthedevil]

Your reasoning is flawed because you seems to assume wildstar's raiding was bad because it was 40 men based. But, guess what, the number of players in the raid isn't the only factor that makes a raid successful or not. There are hundreds of reasons why PVE in wildstar was bad (the main reason being excessive gating on too little content, the other one being that the games's color were so flashy and it did move so much that you ended raiding cession with motion sickness or a headache).

...That also makes your reasoning flawed you know, right?

I played that game for a year. The main reason it didn't work out was lack of 40 people. The gating was exactly how the community wanted it with there being a long ass quest chain to get in. Sounds familiar right?

The only motion sickness complaint i ever heard was due to the FOV, which people then adjusted and were fine after just starting to play the game. I never heard anyone say they got motion sickness from "colors."

- - - Updated - - -

They never said it didn't work. They explained why it worked as it did.

But as usual, they left out the real reason why... (due to political reasons)

To put it very simple : TBC got launched too soon, people were simply not done in naxx, nor vanilla.



And this ^ Very few saw this problem back then, but it is indeed one of the real nerfs to TBC raiding contra Vanilla..

There is literally multiple paragraphs explaining why it didn't work out, but sure. To put it simply "maintaining a roster of 40 people."

Why do you think they followed it up with a paragraph on why 20 man was successful?

[Battlebeard]

means gear is more epic when you get it

Best part of vanilla in my opinion, 40mans that is, loot is less important

Big raids are awesome. Just look at the Lord of the Rings movies or any movie with epic battles. What is most epic, 10000v10000 people or 5v5 people :P This is World of WARcraft, so big raids, army-like, really fits.

[Wiedzemir]

...That also makes your reasoning flawed you know, right?

I played that game for a year. The main reason it didn't work out was lack of 40 people. The gating was exactly how the community wanted it with there being a long ass quest chain to get in. Sounds familiar right?

And it happened because Wildstar was a shitty game to begin with. I started it and dropped within first 2 weeks. They tried to emulate classic MMORPGs while merging it with the modern concept of Diablo-like "go go go" and at the same time were shitting on their won playerbase. Not to mention the "action-combat" where every skill you had was basically AOE attack of some sort. Oh and if you though that WoW pet AI is dumb, play as an Engineer in Wildstar and then you'll see the definition of AI stupidity in your bots\pets. Stop comparing that design and marketing disaster with a game proven by time.

Comparing a game that failed at launch and the game that had enormous success is ridiculous. WoW killers always failed because these were always designed as crappy cash grabs with the entire marketing consisting out of a single phrase "we're not in Azeroth anymore!".

[In Ogres We Trust]

While this wasn't a Classic system, I've always been a fan of EPGP. Regardless, 40-Player raiding was the epitome of the "SUCK!"

[iamthedevil]

And it happened because Wildstar was a shitty game to begin with. I started it and dropped within first 2 weeks. They tried to emulate classic MMORPGs while merging it with the modern concept of Diablo-like "go go go" and at the same time were shitting on their won playerbase. Not to mention the "action-combat" where every skill you had was basically AOE attack of some sort. Oh and if you though that WoW pet AI is dumb, play as an Engineer in Wildstar and then you'll see the definition of AI stupidity in your bots\pets. Stop comparing that design and marketing disaster with a game proven by time.

Comparing a game that failed at launch and the game that had enormous success is ridiculous. WoW killers always failed because these were always designed as crappy cash grabs with the entire marketing consisting out of a single phrase "we're not in Azeroth anymore!".

The game was designed by people that worked at blizzard north. *Nope wrong guy.
Also, my post had nothing to do with the game other than the raiding.

Main point being, they tried to replicate an already antiquated mode and subsequently failed like that already retired mode. Reason being the same thing, "maintaining a roster of 40 people."

[Radaney]

YES it was SO great to get PALADIN gear without a Pala in raid /s

My favourite part of Vanilla was spending couple hours in Scholomance and getting Priest Tier head drop.

Without a Priest in the group lul.

Best part of vanilla in my opinion, 40mans that is, loot is less important

Big raids are awesome. Just look at the Lord of the Rings movies or any movie with epic battles. What is most epic, 10000v10000 people or 5v5 people :P This is World of WARcraft, so big raids, army-like, really fits.

Loot isn't less important. It's actually more important, because most fights were gear or resist checks.

[iamthedevil]

Except they haven't they, inserted an "antiquated" mode into a modern game. Just another WoW-killer. It's like adding 40 man in WoW now. Good luck with that. Vanilla was vastly different in every aspect and your fundamental mistake is that you're looking at one particular part of the game, disregarding the rest. It's actually a common affliction of this forum, called tunnel vision specifically focused on raids and nothing but raids.

You're telling me im wrong and then you agree with me... wat

[Forogil]

They changed the policy so if you could prove by logs that loot distribution by rolling was promised, they would actually move the loot to the rightful winner.

There were multiple changes to policy - one change was that 'highest roll' was implied, before that if you only said "loot will be rolled for" you could give it to anyone that rolled :-)

- - - Updated - - -

So? Not sure where the problem. The person clearly saved DKP and haven't taken any loot just to get this one item. It's fair. The fact that you're putting a healer one step above DPS clearly shows that DKP is needed because you're against fair distribution of the loot.

You are missing the entire point.

Loot in a progressing raiding guild is intended to benefit the group - not the individuals. The problem isn't whether the healer or dps got that item - but that the dps previously DKP-hoarded and likely skipped multiple upgrades in order to get that item. That is suboptimal for the guild - and dkp generally leads to that.