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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    I don't know too much about BM,but imo,they should reward the more engaging gameplay choice with better DPS

    I'm fine with the 2 button spec BM remaining low,but players trying to play a more complex spec should be rewarded for it
    This has been a discussion I've had with people before and while complexity=reward is absolutely something I believe in, I also believe that even someone going with the simplest rotation should be able to adequate DPS. As the devs have said many, many times, we have a wide range of types of people and age groups playing WoW. There was a story about someone's grandpa starting to play WoW because he wanted to bond with his grandson and have something more engaging than TV to do. Now, in his case, so the story goes, he was doing very respectable DPS and was near the top in the guild.

    But not everyone's grandpa is that awesome. Or dad, or mother, or even your brother or sister. Some people aren't mentally built for demanding games, but that doesn't mean they should be turned away at the door. I mean, once upon a time, that's how I viewed WoW. Go hard, or go home. But I don't feel that way anymore, BLIZ is trying to make the game more accessible and in line with that, we need to keep in mind not everyone is as sharp at games as some of us. We take our instincts and our ability to learn for granted and expect everyone else should be able to do the same but not everyone can.

    All that aside.
    - Dear god, buff Chimera Shot, it sucks so bad right now.
    - Make Chimera Shot baseline, asking us to choose between it and that Wild Call talent (?) was idiotic.
    - Personally, I'd rather see Barrage be competitive. Murder of Crows competing with it in tier is also bad.

    I lost all faith in BM Hunter on BETA and Live has not changed my mind.
    Once I realized (from personal f'ing around) that it was a nearly 2 button spec, I was out.
    And it still is on Live, pretty much entirely. Not exactly mind you but close enough.

    And personally, f' two pets man. That needs to be optional from here on.
    (I understand some people really think it's cool and I don't fault them for it, but I disagree.)
    Like others have said before, a BM Hunter treats his pet like his only trusted companion.
    That's the fantasy I signed up for, not having an army of Pets around. (2 out + Wild Call or whatever it is).

    (Note: Pardon calling two different things "Wild Call", I forget the names of the abilities. I aint looked at BM since launch really, you guys know what abilities I'm talking about, I'm sure.)
    Last edited by Spiral Mage; 2017-12-29 at 08:28 AM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post

    Public logs are highly misleading.

    .
    Please get off wow and go to school. Take some statistics and learn about sample size.

    Also...just to get to help you get your brain juices flowing:
    Not only are there a lot of really bad BM players, but there are people with bad/unoptimized gear or legendary setups
    That is the same for EVERY CLASS AND EVERY SPEC.

    The BM sample is 19,000+.

    So if i am a RL and i am working on mythic high command ...we got our said roster there are no issues....but i got a chance to recruit i dont know any one of the https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#boss=2070 23 other classes on that list.

    The only downside is i have to sit the BM hunter...well lets say i can recruit a warrior...a ARMS warrior (the lowest DPS spec of that class for that fight) then he on average would do 600k more damage....which means add die faster..less damage going out. All in all ...a pure win.

    BUT WAIT!...you said.....


    After you get past the first 5 free loot bosses(even on Garothi/Hounds BM is mid/top-mid), everything is Single-target with quite a lot of priority target burst, which is what BM is amazing at.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#boss=2076

    I agree it is a perfect example of things being equal. There is no issue in equality. But we are not top...

    but what about high command? What about those other bosses? Crap if i am building a roster i need to think about them..are those other classes DEAD LAST BY 200k-300K on these fights? NOPE! So there is no lost if i sit that bm hunter and take another class.

    late rights? (note sample size is gone way way done)

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#boss=2082
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#boss=2088
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#boss=2069


    i am seeing really no changes. IE as a raid leader if i sit the BM hunter and take any one else...it will be an improvement to my roster. Assuming they are equal players.

    but what about the end fights! THERE WAS A BM ON METHOD FIRST KILL ON ARGUS!

    Yes there was...but there was NO hunters on there aggramar kill.

    We do not bring anything to the table...even MM hunters. Shit back in EN MM hunters were doing crazy AOE and now on average they arn't.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#boss=2070

    compared too
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#boss=1873

    like if i was MM i would be screaming too.

    right now in general...sit the BM hunters and just as well sit the MM hunters too. I would say sit the surv hunters but who the ^(*^*( plays surv.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedyOcelot View Post
    They should make BM hunters into a melee spec.
    no!

    they do that they may as well delete the class that would be the the nail in the coffin we don't need a melee hunter, raids just don't support alot of melee
    Last edited by thunderdragon2; 2017-12-29 at 02:36 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Banard View Post
    something
    Reason there were no hunters on some aggramar kills is because you optimize the comp for CC effects, not DPS. Hunters don't bring anything worthwhile for CC'ing the adds. And melee heavy comp also favors the fight due to the Flares requiring ranged to be spread. So it leaves less ranged spots than usual, and those are filled with mages/druids/ele shamans for CC effects. Also Method used Rogerbrown's DK alt for Aggramar since at least 2 DKs are essentially required for the fight(the more the better, but 2 is doable, 3 is pretty good).

    Also you would be a terrible raid leader if you build/recruit a comp for the bosses of the first half of the raid. The last 2 or sometimes 3 bosses are what matter in terms of min-maxing. The first 5 in Antorus are free loot, so it literally doesn't matter what classes/specs you use. The first boss where we had over 5 wipes was Kin'garoth, and 0 of those wipes were due to lack of DPS.

    BM is good for the last 3 bosses of Antorus DPS-wise, it's auto-picked on Coven for being ranged and having good burst damage for amanthul adds, aggramar you might favor other classes if you need their CC on adds, BM brings superb DPS on that fight due to having good mobility and you can proc sephuz almost on CD after 1st intermission. I have no experience with Argus, but having watched the kill vid, but the fight seems to be all about the last phase, requiring mobility and high burst DPS.
    Last edited by Tehterokkar; 2017-12-29 at 03:29 PM.

  5. #45
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  6. #46
    It feels like BM is being treated like SV was in WoD, only now we're locked to it due to legendaries and AP that I can't be bothered to farm again. And both other specs are either horrible to play and/or fucking melee. I wouldn't want to play them even if I had the gear.

    They don't like how BM plays, and rather than fix it they just want to push us out completely. If we're still garbage when my sub runs out then I guess I might come back when BFA launches.

    BM AoE is a joke. My alt DH on 30 ilvls less, with all the wrong legendaries and hardly any AP manages to do more.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    He was MM on argus.
    You probably need to watch the kill vid again, Rogerbrown was clearly bm and Ginji was mm. Go to 6m in the vid.

  8. #48
    I'm still butthurt that the BM artifact was a robot rifle, instead of something pet related. I think something to command pets we get from killing hakkar the houndmaster would have worked better. 99% of our dps comes from pets...why the stupid mechagnome gun?

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    I never watched the video, just saw the wowprogress say both hunters were MM. That's weird it didn't pick that up.
    A lot of the higher end guilds switch up gear and specs before logging out to update wowprogress, I guess to throw off competition or something. Its kinda silly I know.

  10. #50
    ROFL. This is the same goddam argument we had at in EN when BM dps was hot garbage. Glad I stopped raiding.

    NH was fun as BM, though.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Bildur View Post
    Off topic (but as a response to some other posts in this thread): I main a BM hunter (Has been since vanilla), followed by an Arms warrior (Once a Prot), a Feral Druid (Once a Bear) an Affliction Warlock (Once Demo) a Frost Mage, a Ret Pally and a Havoc Demonhunter. Also tried Deathknight + Monk.

    And without logging in this very minute to actually do a manual button count it feels to me that no matter what class I play I have to press pretty much the same number of buttons. That said my BM Hunter is by far the easiest to play while soloing, simply because he can do stuff such as killing elites much easier than my other classes (Thanks pet). But I mash the same number of buttons than my other classes do
    I like to play alts, too, and I agree with your post. Most classes are with in 1-2 button presses of each other. (And BM hunters are super easy to solo with.)

  12. #52
    A class being easier to play should not be a reason for us to expect to remain at lower dps than others - after all people choose to play other class or spec. Play style means less than nothing when promoting choice which they're not no have they ever hunter have always had one spec (far) superior to the other in terms of dmg.

  13. #53
    Is there really hard class to play in this xpac!!!

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormmantis View Post
    A class being easier to play should not be a reason for us to expect to remain at lower dps than others - after all people choose to play other class or spec. Play style means less than nothing when promoting choice which they're not no have they ever hunter have always had one spec (far) superior to the other in terms of dmg.

    I think bm's dmg is balanced around its movement capability and how it separates itself from other ranges classes.
    It's a niche spec that works very well at what it does. There's still a skill ceiling to perform well on the spec such as timings e.g when to press KC over DB, when to have beast cleave uptime(when adds could seperate etc), when to dump focus (saving focus for burst/prio targets)...
    But among those things, having to move is not one of them. Something that all other ranged have to worry about in some shape or form.

  15. #55
    The mobility trade off doesn't make up for lack of dps though, it it did the gaps between other class and specs wouldn't be so large. If the mobility was such a boon to bms they would compete better than they do.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrox View Post
    It's a niche spec that works very well at what it does.
    But it doesn't. At all. It does a VERY POOR job of filling the mobile ranged niche. For it to "work very well at what it does" it would have to be at least mid-pack DPS. And most here aren't even asking for it to be that good...we just want to not be such a significant percentage behind the second worst spec, specifically as it relates to AoE!

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrox View Post
    I think bm's dmg is balanced around its movement capability and how it separates itself from other ranges classes.
    It's a niche spec that works very well at what it does. There's still a skill ceiling to perform well on the spec such as timings e.g when to press KC over DB, when to have beast cleave uptime(when adds could seperate etc), when to dump focus (saving focus for burst/prio targets)...
    But among those things, having to move is not one of them. Something that all other ranged have to worry about in some shape or form.
    These are the 2 arguments that keep coming up, either the spec is:
    a) Fully mobile and has a niche in that
    or
    b) Is really easy so should do less dps

    A) simply isn't a niche that stands out. There are no fights where the mobility is giving BM the edge anywere.
    I'm not saying the mobility isn't an advantage, it certainly is and it's one of the reasons BM is prefered over MM on some fights, especially during progression. But there is no distinct niche where BM jumps out as being a solid contender. Hell even on the high movement fights BM struggles to even reach up to the mid dps tier.

    So either the niche isn't as much of a niche as some people like to claim it is. Or other specs/classes simply have too much tools and abilities to cover for their weakness in movement. If BM has too much of an advantage during high movement fights than clearly other classes don't have big enough of a disadvantage to let this advantage show itself.

    B) is not a reason to keep a spec as low on DPS as it currently is.
    Easy to play should not be a balance factor. If that is a reason for keeping the DPS low than there is a major design flaw in the spec right there that needs to be addressed.
    Also it's easy to address the supposed "lack of difficulty" without making the spec harder to play for casual and newer players. There is a very distinct difference between a skill floor and skill ceiling. There are already a few factors that address this (e.g. holding cooldowns to sync up, like holding crows for BW, holding CotW for BW; proper use of TT with dire beasts; proper use of KC and DB with legendary boots, Dire Frenzy stack maintanance, etc), but they can easily add more.
    Last edited by Nythiz; 2018-01-07 at 12:33 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post

    B) is not a reason to keep a spec as low on DPS as it currently is.
    It's also just not a reason at all.

    Affliction is the 2nd easiest ranged spec in the game after BM but is the #1 DPS spec. If difficulty affected intended DPS that would not be the case.

  19. #59
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    I feel like this whole "You have better mobility than me, so you don't deserve the dps I have" is just pure BS. First of all, if you are in a progress driven raiding guild, it is in your best interest that the DPS overall performs well. With all the RNG and effort put into each spec this expansion it's not just about "Go play MM then, or be benched". I sim at 1.940 million as BM atm (My MM "partner in crime" for years sim at 2.2 mill with same gear), and I can't get those numbers with MM, because I haven't put the same amount of work into it. Maximizing 2 specs 100% within reason is a fulltime job, something most people can't do due to work etc. 81 vs 71 traits, and obviously haven't taken the bis relics from our other raiders to put my MM weapon on par (992 vs 978).

    BM is probably in a worse place atm than any other spec have been in a long time. This isn't feelcrafting, this is pure factual statistics with a massive samplesize in a raid environment. I'd like to consider BM as a "ranged melee spec". Assassination have been brought up, and WW monk aswell. None of them are any more rocket science than what BM is, yet they are in a MUCH better place. I don't demand or suggest that we should be in the top 5, but every raider have to plan their movement (BM included), and the difference from BM to Affliction is just batshit crazy considering the main difference is they have one short cast seperating them from BM.

    If you honestly believe that BM are fine in it's current state, you clearly haven't put much research into it.

  20. #60
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    BM is fine.

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