[Comics/TV/Movies] Harley Quinn, Anti-Hero or Bad Guy?

[Orby]

I don't like what geek culture is currently turning her into, she is becoming a sympathetic anti-hero and I am not a fan of that. I have no idea when she got so popular, it has been a slow build in her popularity since she was introduced in the animated series, and now it's blown up to Wolverine levels of over popularising but credit at least Wolverine is a hero.

[Tabrotar]

Yes and doing that psychiatrist actually have to be qualified, and to do what she was doing extremely qualified even for a mental health expert. That's why they take notes, that is why they are reviewed, it's also why she is culpable.


She didn't lose her sanity, she either didn't have it to begin with, or she made a choice, you can't have it both ways. If she already had an issue then whoever put here where she was to break is responsible.

If she wasn't insane before she went in there Joker didn't make her insane, that isn't how that works, sorry!

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No she is just a murderer or highly functioning psychotic.

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Ok well if that's canon and she wasn't a psychiatrist then who evers bright fucking idea it was to allow her to be in a room alone with Joker should be held responsible.

She was a psychiatrist but only in her first year after graduation and she had a theorie that "There are only two circumstances under which a person disregards the rules of society. When they commit a crime, or when they're in love."

To prove that she would allow her Professor to watch her as she did an experiment which involed her and her boyfriend at that time which ended with his death and her beliving that it was chaos (as in chaos theorie) which did it (it was her prof who spiked her boyfriends drink with dilluted Joker venom to ease the stress she would put him trough).

[Fencers]

Quinn has actively murdered and tortured innocent people for pleasure and adoration.

I would say, "bad guy". Because of the murder and torture, mostly.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Sane people can be driven insane by the right set of circumstances...which is exactly what happened to Harley. She's insane. And if Insanity makes Joker a "Victim" than Harley is just as much of a victim as he is.

Sane people CAN be driven insane, but not under these conditions sorry. There are very specific precursors for that. You are correct everybody has a blind spot, and even the the highest of Intelligence can be made stupid if you find the right weakness that is true.

But we know this, that is why there are certain systems are in place to try to prevent this kind of thing, and that is from your average joe schmoe, a Psychiatrist trained at her level would be specifically aware of this to work with joker, not to mention she would have handlers and people that would screen her.

This is done specifically to prevent the kinds of risks that someone like joker would represent.


Joker is independently incapable of making rational or reasonable decisions, that may or may not go along with his own ability to choose in certain moments. Harley on the other hand is NO victim, she wouldn't have been, she made a choice to put herself even if we went with this hypothetical that you propose which is she wasn't insane before hand.

If she wasn't beforehand, think of it like anything else like when dealing with deadly or destructive elements, whether you mean to or not you are responsible for the decisions you make when taking on certain task.

But again that is your hypothetical, Noo she knew better, she didn't go insane unless she already was, so she was either ill prepared meaning someone else dropped the ball. Then she made a choice.

It sucks but yes even beautiful attractive people can be very not sorry and very much sane in their choice.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Sane people CAN be driven insane, but not under these conditions sorry. There are very specific precursors for that. You are correct everybody has a blind spot, and even the the highest of Intelligence can be made stupid if you find the right weakness that is true.

But we know this, that is why there are certain systems are in place to try to prevent this kind of thing, and that is from your average joe schmoe, a Psychiatrist trained at her level would be specifically aware of this to work with joker, not to mention she would have handlers and people that would screen her.

This is done specifically to prevent the kinds of risks that someone like joker would represent.


Joker is independently incapable of making rational or reasonable decisions, that may or may not go along with his own ability to choose in certain moments. Harley on the other hand is NO victim, she wouldn't have been, she made a choice to put herself even if we went with this hypothetical that you propose which is she wasn't insane before hand.

If she wasn't beforehand, think of it like anything else like when dealing with deadly or destructive elements, whether you mean to or not you are responsible for the decisions you make when taking on certain task.

But again that is your hypothetical, Noo she knew better, she didn't go insane unless she already was, so she was either ill prepared meaning someone else dropped the ball. Then she made a choice.

It sucks but yes even beautiful attractive people can be very not sorry and very much sane in their choice.

I don't know why you keep bringin up her attractiveness....you're the only one that is hung up on it.

And you're arguing against established Batman Canon. The Joker drove Harley insane. That's lore.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Quinn has actively murdered and tortured innocent people for pleasure and adoration.

I would say, "bad guy". Because of the murder and torture, mostly.

Yeah because she is cute and and a bitchen body, so many dudes would wind up with an ice pick in their skulls projecting way too much about Harley Quinn if they ran into someone like her.

[kasuke06]

why does it have to be one or the other?

she's a bad person who sometimes does good, but far more regularly does bad things.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I don't know why you keep bringin up her attractiveness....you're the only one that is hung up on it.

And you're arguing against established Batman Canon. The Joker drove Harley insane. That's lore.

No I am bringing it up because it's a factor, and you seem like a decent enough bloke, but you are way, way off on this. Harley is not a fucking victim, she is a predator and you really don't get that.

Joker is pretty smart, but he is nothing next her, you make it out because she is submissive and loving and caring for Mr J, that she is some how some cute little minx.


She would eat your fucking children and not think twice about it. 2 things make her infinitely more dangerous than Joker 1. She is more intelligent and 2. She is well aware of her weakness and the reasons why she does what she does.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

No I am bringing it up because it's a factor, and you seem like a decent enough bloke, but you are way, way off on this. Harley is not a fucking victim, she is a predator and you really don't get that.

Joker is pretty smart, but he is nothing next her, you make it out because she is submissive and loving and caring for Mr J, that she is some how some cute little minx.


She would eat your fucking children and not think twice about it. 2 things make her infinitely more dangerous than Joker 1. She is more intelligent and 2. She is well aware of her weakness and the reasons why she does what she does.

Her attractiveness is not a factor to anyone but you. It has no bearing on her lack of mental cohesion.

She is a victim. It's in the Canon. She was twisted into what she is by The Joker. She's completely insane and she was made that way by him.

She is not more intelligent that the Joker. That's canon as well. The Joker is brilliant. Insane, but Brilliant.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Her attractiveness is not a factor to anyone but you. It has no bearing on her lack of mental cohesion.

She is a victim. It's in the Canon. She was twisted into what she is by The Joker. She's completely insane and she was made that way by him.

She isn't a victim and there is no actual argument you can make for the fact she is, I have explained in detail why in this question about a fictional character why she isn't a victim.

If you say her back story changes from what I said, like she is a novelist or something in cannon then that would be the only other outside possibility. But it isn't she was a psychiatrist, she made a choice and continues to do so.

Hell even in the clips you showed, she was manipulating The Joker, and despite her cute bubbly smile, if she ever got pissed, I have no doubt she would kill Joker too.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

She isn't a victim and there is no actual argument you can make for the fact she is, I have explained in detail why in this question about a fictional character why she isn't a victim.

You've ignored the canon that shows that she is indeed a victim. Physically and mentally.

If you say her back story changes from what I said, like she is a novelist or something in cannon then that would be the only other outside possibility. But it isn't she was a psychiatrist, she made a choice and continues to do so.

I never claimed her back story changed. She was a psychiatrist. She became fascinated with the Joker and tried to restore his Sanity. He used that to twist her mind up. He broke her down completely and created something new in his own image.

Hell even in the clips you showed, she was manipulating The Joker, and despite her cute bubbly smile, if she ever got pissed, I have no doubt she would kill Joker too.

The clips I showed where he was physically abusive to her? The ones that showed that her entire sense of self-worth is tied to him even though she's nothing more than a prop to him? She never manipulated him. She was always the one being manipulated. Even Batman uses that against her when she captured him.

[Doctor Amadeus]

You've ignored the canon that shows that she is indeed a victim.

No I have ignored what you have provided as proof she was a victim or insane and you are wrong and it doesn't

I never claimed her back story changed. She was a psychiatrist. She became fascinated with the Joker and tried to restore his Sanity. He used that to twist her mind up. He broke her down completely and created something new in his own image.

Great so now I am 100% sure you are wrong because personally I didn't keep up, I don't find her interesting or sympathetic.

The clips I showed where he was physically abusive to her? The ones that showed that her entire sense of self-worth is tied to him even though she's nothing more than a prop to him? She never manipulated him. She was always the one being manipulated. Even Batman uses that against her when she captured him.

Physically abused her after a circumstance she manipulated and put in motion in the first place, she is not a victim, she is the one controlling the situation. Her self worth is tied to him voluntarily for which she has committed murder and she has even helped him destroy more of his own life.

She is a very selfish and evil person just for that alone, because she knows The Joker is broken, or she could if she actually cared about more than herself, which she doesn't.

He is using her for sure, but she knows this, and she acts accordingly. The only reason she broke down and created a new image was to place him at the center of her problems.

And in addition to being a murderer and torturer she is a big fat liar. As I said between her and Joker, Joker is the Victim and she is for sure the one in control

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

No I have ignored what you have provided as proof she was a victim or insane and you are wrong and it doesn't

Shaking your head and saying "NUH-UH" like a 5 year old because you don't like the evidence presented is not a great debate tactic. The evidence shows that she is insane and their is even testimony that says the Joker made her that way. You have provided zero evidence to support your position.

Great so now I am 100% sure you are wrong because personally I didn't keep up, I don't find her interesting or sympathetic.

You not finding her interesting or sympathetic has no bearing on her sanity.

Physically abused her after a circumstance she manipulated and put in motion in the first place, she is not a victim, she is the one controlling the situation. Her self worth is tied to him voluntarily for which she has committed murder and she has even helped him destroy more of his own life.

Physically abused for trying to impress him, to get his attention, to show him how much she loves him.

She is a very selfish and evil person just for that alone, because she knows The Joker is broken, or she could if she actually cared about more than herself, which she doesn't.

She thinks her love can fix him. That just proves she's insane...it doesn't make her evil. If the Joker isn't evil, Harley isn't.

He is using her for sure, but she knows this, and she acts accordingly.

She doesn't know this. She's convinced that he loves her. She says so multiple times in those clips that you are trying to ignore. She's so convinced of it she takes all the abuse he heaps on her. She doesn't control him. Nobody controls him.

The only reason she broke down and created a new image was to place him at the center of her problems.

So, you finally admit she is insane then. Therefore, by your own logic, she isn't responsible. Case closed.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Shaking your head and saying "NUH-UH" like a 5 year old because you don't like the evidence presented is not a great debate tactic. The evidence shows that she is insane and their is even testimony that says the Joker made her that way. You have provided zero evidence to support your position.

No it doesn't that is your interpretation, and I am telling you it's wrong and I backed with reason why.

You not finding her interesting or sympathetic has no bearing on her sanity.

Right because I am not trying to undercut her role as the bad guy she is.

Physically abused for trying to impress him, to get his attention, to show him how much she loves him.

She doesn't love him

She thinks her love can fix him. That just proves she's insane...it doesn't make her evil. If the Joker isn't evil, Harley isn't.

She doesn't she knows he doesn't she is trying to manipulate him

She doesn't know this. She's convinced that he loves her. She says so multiple times in those clips that you are trying to ignore. She's so convinced of it she takes all the abuse he heaps on her. She doesn't control him. Nobody controls him.

She is a liar in addition to being a murderer, she is manipulating the situations and being deceptive. Her control over him is her he fix. As far as Joker, again he is clinically insane she knows this, and she is aware he is incapable of love.

So, you finally admit she is insane then. Therefore, by your own logic, she isn't responsible. Case closed.

Yes, she basically doesn't care about anybody but herself, which in and of itself doesn't make her a bad person, it is her choice and knowing whats behind that choice to murder, and kill is what makes her more than bad, she is evil.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Yes, she basically doesn't care about anybody but herself, which in and of itself doesn't make her a bad person, it is her choice and knowing whats behind that choice to murder, and kill is what makes her more than bad, she is evil.

Insanity is not a choice.

Again, you are arguing against what has been already established in lore. You're just spouting your own fan-fiction. There's really nothing ore to say than that.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Insanity is not a choice.

Right and she isn't insane, she made the choice from beginning all the way through. She is a a bad guy and villain and at this point there isn't even a need for a trial she should be killed if she can't be captured. and then executed.

[therealstegblob]

What kind of question is this? She's either/or. Depends on which version you're watching/reading. Commonly she's a bad guy with a slight anti-hero lean (she's normally more 'fun' bad than outright sinister bad, making her a little less sinister).

[RobertoCarlos]

Right and she isn't insane, she made the choice from beginning all the way through. She is a a bad guy and villain and at this point there isn't even a need for a trial she should be killed if she can't be captured. and then executed.

Harleys big mistake was taking too much of an interest in the joker and being naive with how dangerous he is when she was working in arkham.

Everything after Joker mind bending her into a obsessed loved up puppy who dresses like him is on the joker.

Yes its her doing the bad deeds to impress him and maybe for her own enjoyment as she falls further into insanity but to say its his or her fault by then is missing the point really the damage has already been done and the rest is just the car crash afterwards.

Its really quite an abusive relationship she has with the joker and most people would fall on the side of having some sympathy for harley, probably why some writers try make her more of a anti hero or morally grey character.

And gotham doesnt kill, they just send people to arkham so they can escape again in a later story.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

No she has Zero Moral compass sorry! She might not kill everyone she crosses paths with, that does not mean she it's for any other reason than it simply doesn't facilitate any function for her.

That’s not true though she clearly does have a moral compass though it depends on the story.

[RobertoCarlos]

Yes, she basically doesn't care about anybody but herself.

I would argue she cares about the joker even more than herself. But it seems the minor details of the character have escaped you.