Why would the Nightborn join the Alliance?

[MrDragon]

So there's a few reasons for the Nightborn to join the Horde. They're not -good- reasons, but they're reasons.

1) Liadrin's Support and Tyrande's Distrust.
2) Cultural Alignment with the Blood Elves while the Night Elves are still fairly Anti-Arcane.
3) Alliance's focus on the Light, which the Nightborn don't share.

And there's a few reasons they shouldn't join the Horde.

1) Undead are culturally verboten in most societies
2) Trollwars, though I -think- that might've been more EK than Kalimdor.


But what reasons, specifically, do they have to join the Alliance? Beyond "The Horde Stinks" and "We've got Nelves" I'm mostly coming up blank.

In learning the history of the different wars between the two sides they'll learn that the (current) Horde and the Alliance have been aggressors and victims of each other as the tides of war run back and forth. Each side will tell their side of the story and present the other as monsters and themselves as victims and heroes (As we can see on the Forums, here, where Alliance and Horde players devalue their side's aggression and aggrandize their heroic traits).

And both sides helped during the revolution (Or, technically, it was 'faction neutral' class orders that the players represented). So that's really not much of a for or against on either side.

I'm open to suggestions.

I thought this topic was already thoroughly beaten to death multiple times already and the flash point for multiple flame-wars on these forums. How about we just bury the matter and lock this topic?

[ello]

Not really an answer to your question, but more of a "what if" scenario. I feel like it would've been 1000x easier for Blizzard to write it so that the Nightborne went Alliance and the Void Elves went Horde.

Instead of Tyrande being a bitch, they could've shown he to be sympathetic. Instead of "WHAT IF YOU ARE AZSHARA????" it could've been "I once disapproved of Arcane users, but in recent times I have grown to tolerate it" and it would've been actual character growth from Wolfheart instead of regression. Maybe Valewalker Farodin could've been an actual Darnassus affiliated Night Elf. They wouldn't even have to make the BElves look bad in the process, just have them be indifferent and the Nightborne could've been Alliance.

On the other hand, Blizz could've written it so that Alleria and Turalyon had a falling out during the 1000 years of war(maybe because she practiced the very magic that is the antithesis of his entire faith??). Alleria could've been written as sympathetic to the Blood Elves, understanding their ends justify the means attitude in BC, she could've felt bad for Sylvanas, perhaps even guilty that she wasn't there to help her defend Silvermoon when Arthas came. etc

would've worked out better imo

[Deleted]

The question is why would anyone join the Horde? I've asked myself that when the Pandaren joined them. It made absolutely no sense. Who would've looked at the Alliance and the Horde and went "yep, I'm gonna go over to that guy who screams at me and tells me my friends are now my enemies... and these dead guys look cool too... and look at all this tribal, barbaric shit". And with Sylvanas it is even worse. Why would anyone trust her as a leader? Why would anyone join a faction led by an undead, arrogant bitch? Do these people do no research? Give me any reason why anyone would want to join a couple of brutes, that live in mudhuts in a desert and a couple of undead living in a sewer?

[MrDragon]

The question is why would anyone join the Horde? I've asked myself that when the Pandaren joined them. It made absolutely no sense. Who would've looked at the Alliance and the Horde and went "yep, I'm gonna go over to that guy who screams at me and tells me my friends are now my enemies... and these dead guys look cool too... and look at all this tribal, barbaric shit". And with Sylvanas it is even worse. Why would anyone trust her as a leader? Why would anyone join a faction led by an undead, arrogant bitch? Do these people do no research? Give me any reason why anyone would want to join a couple of brutes, that live in mudhuts in a desert and a couple of undead living in a sewer?

And boom... we've reached the target.
Time to lock this shit because pointless faction hate is all we're getting from this point onwards.

[Deleted]

And boom... we've reached the target.
Time to lock this shit because pointless faction hate is all we're getting from this point onwards.

It's not pointless.

[SunspotAnims]

Some may have familial ties with the Night Elves. Additionally, I would be very surprised if there wasn't a significant number of Nightborne fascinated by the Night Elven nature magic that helped cure them of their addiction, in a "returning to their roots" sort of way. Also, Anduin and every other Alliance leader, Tyrande aside, would likely be quite welcoming, and even then there would be plenty of room for Tyrande's character development in giving her a chance to accept the Nightborne.

Frankly, I don't think their reasoning to join the Alliance is significantly stronger or weaker than their reasoning to join the Horde, which is exactly why it strikes me as so odd that Thalyssra in particular would be willing to dive into factional conflict with such zeal, especially after both factions worked with her to liberate her city. That's why I've always argued that Nightborne as a playable race should be neutral like Pandaren. I think it would be more in-character for Thalyssra to choose to remain neutral in the rising factional conflicts, but allowing the newly liberated people of Suramar to choose an allegiance on an individual basis if they feel compelled to do so. Not only would it be more in-character, it would also make the whole Nightborne narrative in Legion rewarding for all players, not just those of one faction.

[MrDragon]

It's not pointless.

Ok, let me rephrase that: It's pointless for anybody who is not a raging (insert faction here)fanboy/fangirl to engage with this disc... flame war.

[Katie45]

I dont think they should have joinned any faction, it shits on their story in legion, if they wanted to have them in horde, blizzard should have wrote that whole storyline way differently

[ReVnX]

Tyrande made sure the Nightborne didn't want anything to do with the Alliance

[Combatbutler]

I dont think they should have joinned any faction, it shits on their story in legion, if they wanted to have them in horde, blizzard should have wrote that whole storyline way differently

They have been writing the entire story from a neutral perspective for years now, which is why a faction conflict for the next one looks incredibly forced in general.

[Deleted]

Ok, let me rephrase that: It's pointless for anybody who is not a raging (insert faction here)fanboy/fangirl to engage with this disc... flame war.

It's not flaming. It's all valid points. The Horde is a faction made up of brutes, animals and undead. Anybody looking at this rationally would have to go "why join these guys?". Anybody looking at a noble king, treating you with respect and a dumb brute yelling at you, and picking the latter, is insane. Just look at what happened with the Horde in MoP and you see that it was the bad choice. And now the Nightborn join? Why would they join? It was already a stretch that the Blood Elves joined, it only made sense because of Sylvanas, but soon it turned out that Sylvanas has very little sympathy for the Blood Elves, and the Blood Elves actually wanted out of the Horde at one point. That they didn't really makes no sense. And that the Nightborn would now join makes no sense either. Elves and stinking orcs, trolls, tauren and undead don't mix. It's like two different worlds. Those traditional Horde players don't even want any elves in there. That's not faction bashing or flaming. That's just common sense.

[MrDragon]

They have been writing the entire story from a neutral perspective for years now, which is why a faction conflict for the next one looks incredibly forced in general.

Since WC3 to be precise, and yes, faction conflict has felt forced since the battle of mount Hyjal I'd say.

It's not flaming. It's all valid points. The Horde is a faction made up of brutes, animals and undead. Anybody looking at this rationally would have to go "why join these guys?". Anybody looking at a noble king, treating you with respect and a dumb brute yelling at you, and picking the latter, is insane. Just look at what happened with the Horde in MoP and you see that it was the bad choice. And now the Nightborn join? Why would they join? It was already a stretch that the Blood Elves joined, it only made sense because of Sylvanas, but soon it turned out that Sylvanas has very little sympathy for the Blood Elves, and the Blood Elves actually wanted out of the Horde at one point. That they didn't really makes no sense. And that the Nightborn would now join makes no sense either. Elves and stinking orcs, trolls, tauren and undead don't mix. It's like two different worlds. Those traditional Horde players don't even want any elves in there. That's not faction bashing or flaming. That's just common sense.

Basically, you project a large number of opinions onto 49% of the player base and insult a good portion of them who have different views from you. Classy.
Your beef is with the Blizzard writing staff for consistently insisting that the Horde is borderline the opposite of what you state since WC3.

[Deleted]

Basically, you project a large number of opinions onto 49% of the player base and insult a good portion of them who have different views from you.

Why playerbase? I'm talking about the characters. Who am I insulting? What are you talking about? I'm not saying players are dumb for playing Horde. I play Horde myself. I'm talking about the decision the characters are making in the story. Like Ji Firepaw. Ji had absolutely no reason to join the Horde. He loved Aysa and he basically pledged absolute loyalty to a guy who just told him "she's your enemy now, if you see her, you need to kill her". If you look at the two factions as a character in the universe, there's no reason for anyone to pick the Horde over the Alliance. The Nightborn especially. They fought alongside the Horde and the Alliance. I can not see any of the Nightborn characters looking at both factions and deciding that the Horde is a better place than the Alliance.

Your beef is with the Blizzard writing staff for consistently insisting that the Horde is borderline the opposite of what you state since WC3.

Have you played the game recently? Have you played through Cataclysm and the whole stuff with Garrosh. Have you seen what the undead are doing?

[Toxsins]

Nightborne should definitely be neutral like Pandaren and able to choose a side on an individual basis.

You could also say the same about some of the other allied races, like Void Elves, Dark Iron Dwarves and Highmountain Tauren.

[Soulwind]

Like Gilneans, they isolated themselves and abandoned their people (the Night elves), and this happened during the lifetime of many of the elves that are in the Alliance and Suramar right now, so it's not old history.

So a good reason to join the Alliance would be to prove Tyrande and her people that they are worth trusting again. Thalyssra shouldn't take the easy road and prove her right in the process.

Another good reason would be that, from a cultural standpoint, these snobbish elves who have spent thousands of years hating and belittling other races aren't likely to risk getting their shoes dirty by stepping into Orgrimmar or Thunderbluff. They would only help the Horde as long as they could do so from a comfortable place, and as far of any orcs or trolls as they could.

What they should have done with Nightborne, in my opinion, is leave Thalyssra and most of their people neutral (they have a city to run after all), and have two sub-factions join the Alliance and the Horde:

The Horde would get something that would be to the Nightborne what the Rangari were to the draenei: people who already spent their time in nature and practicing melee combat, probably people who experienced early stages of withering and don't have such high standards anymore. Nightborne who didn't fit in Suramar anyway.

While the ones joining the Alliance would come from the group that didn't initially join Thalyssra, and don't particularly like this new order that assassinated their leader. They'd understand that getting rid of the Nightwell was necessary, but they'd wish it could have been achieved in some other way. Nightborne who don't want to be in Suramar anymore.

Meanwhile, most of the Nightborne wouldn't join a war they have nothing to do with, and would just try to adapt to the new Suramar and its rulers.

[MrDragon]

Like Gilneans, they isolated themselves and abandoned their people (the Night elves), and this happened during the lifetime of many of the elves that are in the Alliance and Suramar right now, so it's not old history.

So a good reason to join the Alliance would be to prove Tyrande and her people that they are worth trusting again. Thalyssra shouldn't take the easy road and prove her right in the process.

Another good reason would be that, from a cultural standpoint, these snobbish elves who have spent thousands of years hating and belittling other races aren't likely to risk getting their shoes dirty by stepping into Orgrimmar or Thunderbluff. They would only help the Horde as long as they could do so from a comfortable place, and as far of any orcs or trolls as they could.

What they should have done with Nightborne, in my opinion, is leave Thalyssra and most of their people neutral (they have a city to run after all), and have two sub-factions join the Alliance and the Horde:

The Horde would get something that would be to the Nightborne what the Rangari were to the draenei: people who already spent their time in nature and practicing melee combat, probably people who experienced early stages of withering and don't have such high standards anymore. Nightborne who didn't fit in Suramar anyway.

While the ones joining the Alliance would come from the group that didn't initially join Thalyssra, and don't particularly like this new order that assassinated their leader. They'd understand that getting rid of the Nightwell was necessary, but they'd wish it could have been achieved in some other way. Nightborne who don't want to be in Suramar anymore.

Meanwhile, most of the Nightborne wouldn't join a war they have nothing to do with, and would just try to adapt to the new Suramar and its rulers.

While I'm against a repeat of a neutral race on both factions... this sounds pretty reasonable.
Good job, not that my praise it worth much but I just want to express appreciation.

[Caerule]

Honestly their choice for the Horde was inevitable.

In the end, the Nightborne aren't choosing Orcs or Humans, they are choosing Blood Elf or Night Elf. Let's look at the people involved.

The Nightborne are an advanced arcane civilization. They are 100% city folk, whose closest connection to nature is animals and plants controlled by magic in zoos and gardens. They are proud, cultured, and severely indulgent in magic. They spent 10.000 cut off from the world outside. They have recently suffered a betrayal from their leader, struggled with addiction, and faced conquest by the Legion.

The Blood Elves are an advanced arcane civilization. They have a lot of city folk, but maintain a love of their lands through their ranger traditions. They are proud, cultured, and moderately indulgent in magic. They spent ages mostly focused on affairs within their kingdom, only recently learning to look beyond. They have recently suffered a betrayal from their leader, struggled with addiction, and faced conquest by the Legion.

The Night Elves are a culture dedicated to nature, faith and vigil. Harmony with the natural world is everywhere, due to druidic traditions. They are a strict people suspicious of magic, that have only recently accepted back the grovelling Highborne that offered their strength to Night Elf society. They have kept a long and aggressive watch against threats that could drag their people to indulgence and Legion threats again, after facing the Legion.


Even taking Liadrin and Tyrande out of the equation, I just don't see how Night Elves and Nightborne could possibly have been compatible. If Nightborne didn't resemble Night Elves a little, no one would have even suggested this. Blood Elves would integrate better into Night Elf culture than Nightborne would. At least Blood Elves have faith, and ranger traditions.

You also have to note just how much the Night Elves are disgusted by people like this. Nightborne are the unfallen Highborne of old, in many ways. Their arcane city and well are an abomination, completely incompatible with what Night Elves are now. Yes, after much pleading, the Highborne Night Elves were let back into Night Elf society, lending their power to the Night Elves once more. But that integration has not gone smooth at all. In the Wolfheart book it is incredibly divisive and troublesome even. And they had to plead their way into being allowed in. They weren't approached, nor welcomed. There is no way the Night Elves were going to recruit the Nightborne.

[Steampunkette]

Again, this thread is not a place to bash the factions, I'm trying to find reasons for the Nightborn to have joined the Alliance. I'd like for this topic to actually be respected, because it's a facet of the discussion I've never really seen attempted. If your comment amounts to nothing more than faction hate, whinging about the reasons they joined the Horde, or something else wildly off-topic I'm going to report it and move on. This thread has a very narrow topic/focus. Please stick with it.

Like Gilneans, they isolated themselves and abandoned their people (the Night elves), and this happened during the lifetime of many of the elves that are in the Alliance and Suramar right now, so it's not old history.

So a good reason to join the Alliance would be to prove Tyrande and her people that they are worth trusting again. Thalyssra shouldn't take the easy road and prove her right in the process.

Another good reason would be that, from a cultural standpoint, these snobbish elves who have spent thousands of years hating and belittling other races aren't likely to risk getting their shoes dirty by stepping into Orgrimmar or Thunderbluff. They would only help the Horde as long as they could do so from a comfortable place, and as far of any orcs or trolls as they could.

What they should have done with Nightborne, in my opinion, is leave Thalyssra and most of their people neutral (they have a city to run after all), and have two sub-factions join the Alliance and the Horde:

The Horde would get something that would be to the Nightborne what the Rangari were to the draenei: people who already spent their time in nature and practicing melee combat, probably people who experienced early stages of withering and don't have such high standards anymore. Nightborne who didn't fit in Suramar anyway.

While the ones joining the Alliance would come from the group that didn't initially join Thalyssra, and don't particularly like this new order that assassinated their leader. They'd understand that getting rid of the Nightwell was necessary, but they'd wish it could have been achieved in some other way. Nightborne who don't want to be in Suramar anymore.

Meanwhile, most of the Nightborne wouldn't join a war they have nothing to do with, and would just try to adapt to the new Suramar and its rulers.

There's a good reason, here!

1) Redemption! The chance to prove that they're better than their leaders were 10,000 years before.

The whole "Filthy Orcs" thing isn't really an issue since only a few representatives need to go to Orgrimmar while the rest of the race can do Arcane Tourism in Silvermoon if they like. The whole "Split the Race" thing probably won't happen again, Devs have stated that it was a bad decision in retrospect.

Some may have familial ties with the Night Elves. Additionally, I would be very surprised if there wasn't a significant number of Nightborne fascinated by the Night Elven nature magic that helped cure them of their addiction, in a "returning to their roots" sort of way. Also, Anduin and every other Alliance leader, Tyrande aside, would likely be quite welcoming, and even then there would be plenty of room for Tyrande's character development in giving her a chance to accept the Nightborne.

Frankly, I don't think their reasoning to join the Alliance is significantly stronger or weaker than their reasoning to join the Horde, which is exactly why it strikes me as so odd that Thalyssra in particular would be willing to dive into factional conflict with such zeal, especially after both factions worked with her to liberate her city. That's why I've always argued that Nightborne as a playable race should be neutral like Pandaren. I think it would be more in-character for Thalyssra to choose to remain neutral in the rising factional conflicts, but allowing the newly liberated people of Suramar to choose an allegiance on an individual basis if they feel compelled to do so. Not only would it be more in-character, it would also make the whole Nightborne narrative in Legion rewarding for all players, not just those of one faction.

There's a couple of reasons in here.

1) Familial Ties rekindled.
2) Exploration of new type of magic.

Let's get more posts like these, please? More exploration of reasons to join the Alliance.

[Deleted]

Why would the Nightborn join the Alliance?

1. Because they are kaldorei. Even the High Arcanist says this, that she thought the similarities with the kaldorei would bring them together. They look similar, have similar traditions and beliefs. Yes, the Nightborn are more arcany than night elves, but the Highbourne exist in the midst of the night elves now.

2. Because the Alliance did help somewhat to their freedom, through the night elves. In the end, there was both a night elf and a blood elf army at the gates. Sure, maybe Tyrande said some mean words, but in the end are those words worth more than anything?

3. Because the Horde contains trolls and kaldorei hate trolls.

4. Because they share a similar former problem with night elves (Well of Eternity and Legion preparations vs Nightwell and Legion preparations), only they had different ways of dealing with the matters.

5. Because the blood elves are similar to Elisandre. "What?" Well, think about it, who banished the high elves from Quel'thalas when they refused to suck magic from creatures and use fel magic? Was it Kael'thas? No, it was Lor'themar! Lor'themar banished part of his people, exiling them and condemning them to become wreched.... kind of how Elisandre did to many Nightborn.

Honestly, I see enough reason for them to swing either way, which is why they should have been neutral.

[MrDragon]

Again, this thread is not a place to bash the factions, I'm trying to find reasons for the Nightborn to have joined the Alliance. I'd like for this topic to actually be respected, because it's a facet of the discussion I've never really seen attempted. If your comment amounts to nothing more than faction hate, whinging about the reasons they joined the Horde, or something else wildly off-topic I'm going to report it and move on. This thread has a very narrow topic/focus. Please stick with it.

I hope you can forgive my worries then, some in this thread have already taken to faction-bashing unfortunately so I think you can understand my reaction.
But yes... there are legitimate and nuanced points being raised by people and it's surprisingly interesting to read.