Classic might need changes in order to give us the "vanilla experience".

[Deleted]

Hello! First of all, I'd like to point out that I fully intend to play and enjoy Classic regardless if changes are made or not. This topic is about how to create the most genuine vanilla experience and wether or not that requires making changes. The changes I talk about are not QoL changes, but rather rebalancing of both classes/bosses and perhaps new contents.

My concerns, personally, is that copying the original game exactly won't give us the real vanilla experience. As far as I know, the original vanilla was about exploring a brave new world. It was about class fantasy and exploration. I fear that as every single little bit of vanilla has been explored, that magic will be gone.

As we already know which classes will suck (for vanilla's whole existence), there won't be any room to explore the classes and choose one depending on which class fantasy you enjoy most. Some classes will just suck at most things, while others will be superior in most things. The same thing is true with world exploration. We already know every mechanic and boss fight. What to bring and what to do. No real challenges or exploring going on.

I think that this could easily be remedied, to give us the real vanilla experience for real again. This could be things like:

*Rebalancing the classes: By making some classes less useless, you'd be able to choose depending on the class fantasy, and not wether or not that class will suck (for the rest of the game's existence). For example, people back then didn't know druids would suck, they could be buffed at any point. Let us have that luxury too. It'd be about making more classes available, not making them great at everything.

*New raid mechanics and balancing: This would have to go along with class rebalancing. Although, I think that this would be for the better. By making small changes in mechanics and balancing, it'd be like rediscovering the raid for the first time again. Entering a raid should feel epic and challenging and should not feel like you're just following a decade old guide, which has been perfected for years. Besides, they could make lack luster bosses more interesting.

*Small visual updates: By improving graphics and the visual experience, it'd be like exploring another game. While the stuff will be familiar, it will still be a new experience. This would help the feeling of exploring a new world.'

*New quests/raids/bgs: This is another thing that would give us the feeling of exploring a new world. I'm not talking about tons of new contents. Perhaps just a few quests between 50-60, a new daily quest hub at 60 etc? Just small incremental changes. Raids and bgs could be those that didn't make the cut the first time. As I said, it doesn't have to be much, just a little is enough to give us a new experience and the feeling of exploring a new world.

I know that this "new" vanilla world would eventually be explored and discovered, just like the original game. But at least we'd get the real vanilla experience again, and not some theme park museum.

[Shammyrock]

Replicating the vanilla experience basically requires a brand new game, and several external factors Blizzard can't control.

For better or for worse it'll be the original content with some QoL changes and probably rebalanced raids

[Kynario]

I generally agree.

I think the majority of these suggestions are fair enough for a 2018 “remastered” version of Vanilla WoW, much like Blizzard has handled Starcraft: Remastered last year, admitting a few more balancing and bug-fix changes will obviously be necessary.

With all that said, many Vanilla purists which desire “Vanilla as it was. Period.” will be against ANY changes and thus arguments and debates will never really cease at this point. Players are simply too divided on this subject matter. :/

[kraid]

OP brings a very interesting point IMHO what is that we want with the classic servers?
The old game from before? or recreating a vanilla experience?
Having some balances and changes (not QoL changes) would be good to have a brand new experience.
Though I think this is better for a separate server because the players and signatures that made this possible are the guys that want old vanilla back not precisely a vanilla like ''this is a new wow im playing with 2004 philosofy mmo.

[ShortWarning]

I'm in 2 minds about class balancing. On 1 side, it won't be vanilla WOW but on the other side it's silly to make some classes unusable in high level content.

I wouldn't mind some balancing. I don't mean making the useless class/specs OP but making then just about viable could be good so it feels worthwhile levelling them.

[Lightbull]

A lot of people seem happy with the current experience that private servers provide. I doubt that any amount of change will suddenly make Vanilla feel fresh, all that will do is make people angry that it's not the exact same Vanilla that they went to private servers for.

Also, if rebalancing happened, I guarantee that at least 1 class will become not as strong as it was and players will be upset.

[Deleted]

Replicating the vanilla experience basically requires a brand new game, and several external factors Blizzard can't control.

For better or for worse it'll be the original content with some QoL changes and probably rebalanced raids

Well, a new game isn't really what they're offering. I don't think it's required either. Just a few changes and it will be like exploring a new-ish game, at least for most of us.

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A lot of people seem happy with the current experience that private servers provide. I doubt that any amount of change will suddenly make Vanilla feel fresh, all that will do is make people angry that it's not the exact same Vanilla that they went to private servers for.

Yes I can respect that. However, you won't have that class fantasy aspect or the sense of exploring a new world. There are decade old guides out there, and we know that some classes will be largely useless at most things for all time. That's not enough for some of us who wants the vanilla experience, and we have the right to make our concerns heard.

[Jyggalag]

The changes I talk about are not QoL changes, but rather rebalancing of both classes/bosses and perhaps new contents.

Balance & bug fixes are the literal definition a QoL feature. QoL = Quality of Life.

LFR/Flying/Xmog all these things are not QoL features. No one's life was made better by turning their favourite social MMORPG experience into a lobbyesque arcade button mashing snoozefest with watered down rewards, and no one's gaming experience was made better by removing any incentive to progress your character further once you acquired a nice looking set of armour.

QoL DOES NOT MEAN SHIT GAMEBREAKING FEATURES THAT LITERALLY CONVERT THE GAME INTO LEGION for fuck sake. I see 10s of threads where this is misunderstood daily.

Will my quality of life increase when I can loot 10 mobs at once? Yes
Will my quality of life increase when I can kill boss X as any class/spec combo of my choice? Yes
Will my quality of life increase when I can appear to raid MC in level 10 greens? No
Will my quality of life increase when I can bypass core social elements that made the game amazing in the first place by pressing 1 button and being lumped in with 39 strangers in a toxic environment where the boss is ultimately a shadow of what it should be so that I can kill it without any co-ordination i.e. fun for myself and many others? NO

[Deleted]

I don't really get whats so hard about letting people who want Vanilla actually have Vanilla. If you don't like how unbalanced and time-consuming Vanilla was, don't play classic WoW maybe? There is no reason to try and mess it up for the people who actually like it.

If you read the post, you'd know that this isn't about QoL changes. It's about making small changes so that we get a new vanilla experience. It will still be grindy, largely unbalanced still and time consuming.

What you're talking about is more like making a theme park replica. There are decade old guides, and we know some classes will be useless. That isn't a good foundation for a game that is about class fantasy and exploration.

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Balance & bug fixes are the literal definition a QoL feature. QoL = Quality of Life.

LFR/Flying/Xmog all these things are not QoL features. No one's life was made better by turning their favourite social MMORPG experience into a lobbyesque arcade button mashing snoozefest with watered down rewards, and no one's gaming experience was made better by removing any incentive to progress your character further once you acquired a nice looking set of armour.

QoL DOES NOT MEAN SHIT GAMEBREAKING FEATURES THAT LITERALLY CONVERT THE GAME INTO LEGION for fuck sake. I see 10s of threads where this is misunderstood daily.

That is not the definition of QoL. QoL is about making the gameplay easier and less time consuming. What I'm talking about is making a more genuine vanilla experience. You talk about a separate matter, make a new thread about it.

[Jyggalag]

That is not the definition of QoL. QoL is about making the gameplay easier and less time consuming. What I'm talking about is making a more genuine vanilla experience. You talk about a separate matter, make a new thread about it.

Is it fuck. Quality of the content has absolutely nothing to do with accessibility.

[Deleted]

Is it fuck. Quality of the content has absolutely nothing to do with accessibility.

This thread isn't about redefining QoL. If you don't like the commonly accepted definition, make a new thread. Don't derail the thread.

[Jyggalag]

Having some balances and changes (not QoL changes)

They are one in the same.

[Deleted]

That's exactly what Classic WoW is supposed to be. They aren't trying to make a new game, they are trying to remake the old game on a current server so people can legally play it.

And that's absolutely fine. But as I wrote initially, some of us want the vanilla experience. Class fantasy and exploration. We have the right to have a discussion about how you best create this experience.

[munkeyinorbit]

Well, a new game isn't really what they're offering. I don't think it's required either. Just a few changes and it will be like exploring a new-ish game, at least for most of us.

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Yes I can respect that. However, you won't have that class fantasy aspect or the sense of exploring a new world. There are decade old guides out there, and we know that some classes will be largely useless at most things for all time. That's not enough for some of us who wants the vanilla experience, and we have the right to make our concerns heard.

No you don't have any right. What you are saying is fuck vanilla, I want classic to be this way. "Balancing" of classes is one of the worst things to happen. It will destroy the very fabric of what vanilla was. If you want balance, there is already a game for you out there and that is retail.
Why does there have to be multiple threads created every day that are like :

• This is nothing to do with QoL so it means I am right.
• Explain changes to vanilla that are QoL changes.
• Belittle every one that disagrees with me.

[Carnedge]

@OP

Bro, it doesn't matter which classes sucked or were overpowered. Raids and dungeons were so much easier than they are now. Literally over half the raid was carried. You can only bring so many of the overpowered classes due to how buffs/debuffed stacked. No one will care if you bring a gimp class. Only thing they care about is if you show up when you are supposed to and help out.

That being said we know more about the game than we did back then. We know more about certain items and class mechanics than we did back then. Certain classes that were really gimp back are actually pretty good now if you equip the right gear and use certain playstyles/talent setups (if that's your goal).

You are correct about vanilla being new and magical back then, but there are still so many things that will bring back that feeling
- Having to make your way to dungeons and raids via foot/mount
- World mobs being harder and an actual threat
- Talent trees so you can actually have a gimp build if you choose (Hand holding is one of the things that is killing current WoW)
- Having to actually be apart of the community (even if it sometimes toxic.... grow some skin) in order to achieve anything meaningful.

-And very few people have actually explored Vanilla. Tons of stuff has changed since Cata and the stuff that has most people just fly over with their mounts. I think you will be surprised about how much you have actually forgotten about vanilla. Also you forget about the people that started playing after Cata and never played vanilla... I envy them come WoW Classic release.

tl;dr
No changes
No changes
No changes

It will be fine that way.

[Jyggalag]

This thread isn't about redefining QoL. If you don't like the commonly accepted definition, make a new thread. Don't derail the thread.

It's about defining it, not re-defining it. You've redefined it by misunderstanding it. Commonly misunderstood does not mean commonly accepted. And if we were to use your definition, you'd still be completely wrong - implying that Quality of Life means easier, to which the entire Dark Souls and Demon Souls fan base say hi.

My definition of Quality = smooth experience = widely accepted
Your definition of Quality = cheap and easy experience = complete opposite of what many people would consider quality where video games are concerned

[Deleted]

No you don't have any right. What you are saying is fuck vanilla, I want classic to be this way. "Balancing" of classes is one of the worst things to happen. It will destroy the very fabric of what vanilla was. If you want balance, there is already a game for you out there and that is retail.
Why does there have to be multiple threads created every day that are like :

• This is nothing to do with QoL so it means I am right.
• Explain changes to vanilla that are QoL changes.
• Belittle every one that disagrees with me.

Your argument is very dishonest. I didn't say balance as in making everyone equally strong as everything, as is the case in retail. I said finding at least some uses for every class.

As it is now, some classes we know will be perpetually useless. That is not okay if you want to recreate a game where class fantasy is a factor.

[Deleted]

@OP

Bro, it doesn't matter which classes sucked or were overpowered. Raids and dungeons were so much easier than they are now. Literally over half the raid was carried. You can only bring so many of the overpowered classes due to how buffs/debuffed stacked. No one will care if you bring a gimp class. Only thing they care about is if you show up when you are supposed to and help out.

That being said we know more about the game than we did back then. We know more about certain items and class mechanics than we did back then. Certain classes that were really gimp back are actually pretty good now if you equip the right gear and use certain playstyles/talent setups (if that's your goal).

You are correct about vanilla being new and magical back then, but there are still so many things that will bring back that feeling
- Having to make your way to dungeons and raids via foot/mount
- World mobs being harder and an actual threat
- Talent trees so you can actually have a gimp build if you choose (Hand holding is one of the things that is killing current WoW)
- Having to actually be apart of the community (even if it sometimes toxic.... grow some skin) in order to achieve anything meaningful.

tl;dr
No changes
No changes
No changes

It will be fine that way.

When wow first was released, there was no guide as to what class will be mostly useless for the rest of the game. You had the freedom to choose which ever fantasy you wanted.

The topic is how to recreate this feeling, and you present no argument what so ever why no changes would give you a more genuine vanilla experience.

[HavokHeart]

I know that's what YOU want, but the people who have been asking for this for years and played servers like Nostalrius aren't looking for a "new vanilla experience" they are just looking for Vanilla.

The hang up is, IMO, a tricky one. Many people want a pure classic experience. Others want a new experience but want it to have the basic design of vanilla. Honestly, who could blame them. Current design in wow has driven it far from vanilla. This state is like that muddy grey playdough that has all the colors mixed together.


My hope is that a success in classic could lead to serious philosophical changes in the retail version.

[Deleted]

They aren't, they are trying to recreate Vanilla WoW, and if your contention was that all of these classes are useless and that is bad for class fantasy.... Then clearly class fantasy wasn't a factor, eh?

If their intention is to just recreate Vanilla, that's totally fine. I'd play it anyway. However, you can't just pretend to know their intentions and act as their spokesperson.

If you want to know if class fantasy was a factor of the original game, you should't ask the current developing team but rather look back and see.