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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    - Nerf was unwarranted towards people who were doing the "correct" AoE rotation. Also hurts mobile ST damage which we were middle or worse of the pack. This also obliterates any and all chances Moonkins had of surviving 1v1 wPvP ganks and duels (minor point but still worth pointing out).
    This part is fitting for me xD

    I did not give the memefire as much credit as it deserved and kept the normal rotation and I only feel like being nerfed out of the blue.
    I did some research and now understand how strong the memefire is, but for someone who had not played that style at all, that nerf feels awful.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Yeah it’s a heavy DoT class that’s how it should be. Shadow Priests and Affliction should be top on council fights.
    That's not really the point. I was pointing out that the current damage rankings by themselves aren't a good metric for these moonkin changes... and if they are, it's really messed up since moonkins are hardly the cream of the crop. The blue post states that the changes are being made (specifically in the druid's case) because we are abandoning the core rotation abilities Solar Wrath and Lunar Strike, as well as the cleave/AoE rotation becoming one dimensional. My point is that, damage aside, the rotation before Moonfire spamming was already one-dimensional in the cleave/AoE situations. We're just trading one spell spam for another, while losing damage and/or mobility at the same time.

    I also feel that other poster's concerns are that comparatively the Affliction warlock package in any situation is far more one-dimensional than moonkin yet gets left alone while still outperforming moonkins in damage. Your point about a DoT-heavy class doesn't really hold for moonkin, since in AoE/cleave situations the VAST majority of moonkin damage is DoT spells. Are you saying DoT heavy classes should do well in council fights but be subpar at single target? Affliction still outshines moonkins on single target according to logs. While I think the damage aspect is another but perfectly viable discussion, I think the dimensionality of rotations is more important for this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liandryl View Post
    This part is fitting for me xD

    I did not give the memefire as much credit as it deserved and kept the normal rotation and I only feel like being nerfed out of the blue.
    I did some research and now understand how strong the memefire is, but for someone who had not played that style at all, that nerf feels awful.

    And that's the part that concerns me the most: everyone gets nerfed because someone on high decided the rotation wasn't interesting enough. There are better ways to fix this.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2018-01-07 at 12:23 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Okay so I'm not happy about this nerf, but wow, doomsaying much?

    We'll still be a top tier AoE, just we lost a solid 5%+ DPS or so from MFing a ton of adds.



    Fun is subjective. You can't tell others what is/isn't fun TO THEM.

    If you're not spamming Moonfire, you're spamming SW. You're still doing the other spells (keeping up Sunfire, Starfalling, Moon spells), so I don't see a difference in spamming MF over SW. The only difference is it's instant (so mobile) instead of a cast time. Seriously, how it's any more/less fun than spamming SW is beyond me. Also idk why you're talking about Lunar Strike; you never cast that if you don't Starsurge, and isn't Starfall stronger on 2+ targets? Not gonna Starsurge there (unless you're using OI).

    I mean, maybe make SW/LS worth actually casting as spells might help the situation. Unempowered SW/LS are absolute jokes. LS is never used outside of Empowerment, mostly due to the horribly short radius unless you know for a fact it'll hit multiple things (I personally don't bother with it out of empowerments). Maybe give us a better trait to replace W&W that makes LSing worth a damn out of emps/Owlkin Frenzies. Maybe don't design traits and set bonuses that further encourage this kind of playstyle and give us more engaging talents/traits/set bonuses/abilities. Maybe throw us a bone somewhere, anywhere.

    This is an inherent problem with Moonkin overall and it's partially why I'm very likely to be class changing come 8.0 unless huge improvements are made. The base rotation is very simple for both ST and AoE (practically the same thing, change your spender, remove LS from rotation for AoE), talents/traits/set bonuses haven't really helped, so yeah, it's been a problem. People just wanted something different, which is fun for them. Idk that's my take on all this.

    TL;DR:
    - Fun is subjective. Don't tell people what they find fun. Classic WoW is coming despite devs saying "you don't want that".
    - The "normal" rotation for AoE (2+) is literally the same, except you spam SW instead of MF.
    - Problem with Moonkin is we've barely changed our rotation throughout Legion. Only real change was with ED and people don't use it anymore due to 2P T20 being inherently better.
    - Talents don't help when the different rotations (mostly just FoE) are worse than not using them.
    - Nerf was unwarranted towards people who were doing the "correct" AoE rotation. Also hurts mobile ST damage which we were middle or worse of the pack. This also obliterates any and all chances Moonkins had of surviving 1v1 wPvP ganks and duels (minor point but still worth pointing out).
    I can't tell what players find find "TO THEM" -- yes. So it's a moot point to discuss what "you," personally, find fun. Turning on a godmode cheat and stomping through a game might be fun for some people. Other people might not like it, so it isn't fun for them. So who is in the right? Is there even a right choice? Of course there's a right choice -- How does Blizzard want you to play the game? ... That is the right choice. They don't want you mindlessly spamming Moonfire. They want you to cast fillers -- is says it right in their explanation.

    The fact is that we have been telling the devs to "keep a close eye on Memefire gameplay" for literally 3-4 months now. They did not nerf it because they didn't feel it would catch on. The DPS gains are minimal and it's only viable in very specific situations. Remember when Stellar Empowerment was hotfixed to no longer buff direct damage on Moonfire and Sunfire? Do you remember the reason they cited? The gameplay was devolving from something they were okay with. Remember when Emerald Dreamcatcher WASNT changed (then changed 6 months later) because Blizzard felt okay with keeping the high-skillcap gameplay? THey were okay with it, at first, but later changed their minds so make it more accessible to other users. (This was considered a huge nerf ... in reality, unless you were literally a top10 quality player, it was a buff.)

    The fact is they make these changes when they don't like how things are operating. It's no different from patching out an exploit -- it wasn't intended, so they don't allow it. You're still pressing Moonfire a fuckton during AOE and movement. Better players can make use of Stellar Drift and see a notable DPS increase for their effort.

    As for buffing SW and LS even further -- sure, that's pretty reasonable. LS going to 100% splash would be a great start.

    But don't try to pass this off as an unwarranted nerf. They don't want you playing this way as the most optimal option. It's as simple as that.
    Last edited by Cyous; 2018-01-07 at 12:40 AM.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    But don't try to pass this off as an unwarranted nerf. They don't want you playing this way as the most optimal option. It's as simple as that.
    It isn't as 'simple as that' because these changes have ramifications all across the board. It hits moonkins that are farming, it hits pvp moonkins hard and it takes away a fun M+ option for some players. Sure by doing this they stopped the memefire build but the actions of some people in M+ and a few raid fights also punished people who weren't even doing it. There is a reason Wax and Wane was buffed the first time around, it was a pitiful trait and it goes back to being awful again.

    You might be happy with only a few legos/build options being viable but I know I'm not. I loved having another option even if I didn't use it that much.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    It isn't as 'simple as that' because these changes have ramifications all across the board. It hits moonkins that are farming, it hits pvp moonkins hard and it takes away a fun M+ option for some players. Sure by doing this they stopped the memefire build but the actions of some people in M+ and a few raid fights also punished people who weren't even doing it. There is a reason Wax and Wane was buffed the first time around, it was a pitiful trait and it goes back to being awful again.

    You might be happy with only a few legos/build options being viable but I know I'm not. I loved having another option even if I didn't use it that much.
    Correct. And they don't want you spamming Moonfire as your most optimal playstyle. It's a nerf, sure, but it's a minor nerf. The memefire build is still very much viable. Foregoing fillers is not the best choice anymore -- it never should have caught on -- but it did. And they're fixing. It really is as simple as that.

    You're kidding yourself if you think your memefire build is dead. The playstyle is literally the same damn thing you did before Wax and Wane. You can probably keep pressing Moonfire and notice nothing changed in a practical sense.
    Last edited by Cyous; 2018-01-07 at 01:24 AM.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    Correct. And they don't want you spamming Moonfire as your most optimal playstyle. It's a nerf, sure, but it's a minor nerf. The memefire build is still very much viable. Foregoing fillers is not the best choice anymore -- it never should have caught on -- but it did. And they're fixing. It really is as simple as that.
    How exactly is Memefire still very much viable, it is just going back to the old AoE specs.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    How exactly is Memefire still very much viable, it is just going back to the old AoE specs.
    And guess what "memefire" has been for the past 12 months? It's effectively the same playstyle.

    Because you're literally just swapping SW for Moonfire occasionally. Literally everything else will be the same. Damage will be nearly identical. Shuffle your RM cloak for OI or IFE or SOTA, your AOE goes up again. your single-target goes up a little more. Losses covered.

    You've given way too much credit to the RM-based AOE spec. The difference has always been tiny.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    And guess what "memefire" has been for the past 12 months? It's effectively the same playstyle.

    Because you're literally just swapping SW for Moonfire occasionally. Literally everything else will be the same. Damage will be nearly identical. Shuffle your RM cloak for OI or IFE or SOTA, your AOE goes up again. your single-target goes up a little more. Losses covered.

    You've given way too much credit to the RM-based AOE spec. The difference has always been tiny.
    And if it is 'effectively the same playstyle' why is there such a problem with it being changed? I found Radiant Moonlight to be fun and having some mobility in M+ when you didn't have Starfall down was nice as well. I find solar wrath spamming to be kind of boring after this long and I was enjoying the change of pace. I think I'm more frustrated at losing RM as a lego but I'll get over it.

    As you said earlier a nice buff would have been to Lunar Strike's cleaving but we just got flat buffs on our 2 nukes. Ah well.

  9. #49
    Mission Optimizer Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    I can't tell what players find find "TO THEM" -- yes. So it's a moot point to discuss what "you," personally, find fun. Turning on a godmode cheat and stomping through a game might be fun for some people. Other people might not like it, so it isn't fun for them. So who is in the right? Is there even a right choice? Of course there's a right choice -- How does Blizzard want you to play the game? ... That is the right choice. They don't want you mindlessly spamming Moonfire. They want you to cast fillers -- is says it right in their explanation.
    Which is fine; I wasn't even saying I personally liked mashing MF more (I do but I didn't run Memefire outside of heavy movement out of habit and will continue to do so), I was just trying to kill the whole "it's not fun/engaging to do" argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    The fact is that we have been telling the devs to "keep a close eye on Memefire gameplay" for literally 3-4 months now. They did not nerf it because they didn't feel it would catch on. The DPS gains are minimal and it's only viable in very specific situations. Remember when Stellar Empowerment was hotfixed to no longer buff direct damage on Moonfire and Sunfire? Do you remember the reason they cited? The gameplay was devolving from something they were okay with. Remember when Emerald Dreamcatcher WASNT changed (then changed 6 months later) because Blizzard felt okay with keeping the high-skillcap gameplay? THey were okay with it, at first, but later changed their minds so make it more accessible to other users. (This was considered a huge nerf ... in reality, unless you were literally a top10 quality player, it was a buff.)
    It's almost like they need to stop developing super UP/OP (at the tuning of a dial) traits/bonuses/talents/etc. A +30% Direct Damage Moonfire buff does practically nothing as a trait. It's beyond terrible for ST gains (even AoE gains it's pretty pathetic), but when made high enough, it's now creating a new build that makes it such a massive DPS gain, a 6-7% gain in fact.

    On top of that, making fillers more engaging or "fun" to press would also help. There's a reason filler spells are called "filler", maybe it's time to kill off the "filler" of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    The fact is they make these changes when they don't like how things are operating. It's no different from patching out an exploit -- it wasn't intended, so they don't allow it. You're still pressing Moonfire a fuckton during AOE and movement. Better players can make use of Stellar Drift and see a notable DPS increase for their effort.

    But don't try to pass this off as an unwarranted nerf. They don't want you playing this way as the most optimal option. It's as simple as that.
    The problem is the more you press Moonfire, the less of a "buff" this is and more of a nerf it is. I'm not (or rather wasn't) even intentionally spamming Moonfire, I'm just pressing it when there's a fuckload of mobs or during heavy movement when I can't get into melee range of a mob; it's what I do naturally during movement if I'm not in a Starfall/don't have the AsP to cast it/cannot physically be near a boss due to mechanics. It is an unwarranted nerf towards those who are/were playing "correctly" to begin with. Shifting some of the DPS gain to the DoT, Stellar Empowerment, or even Starfall would have fixed this entirely. Kill off the Memefire build sure, but don't nerf players who weren't even using it.

    My point being: I don't see how barely buffing filler spells, a very minor part of your AoE damage, will make up for losing a chunk of your AoE/mobile damage.


    TL;DR: I don't like being nerfed for a different playstyle that existed. When ED got changed, it only affected ED users. This change affects ALL Moonkins, not just those who used Memefire. That's the bullshit I'm upset about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    As for buffing SW and LS even further -- sure, that's pretty reasonable. LS going to 100% splash would be a great start.
    LS having a bigger-than-a-pubic-hair's-length radius would also massively help. Remember Sunfire pre-Sunblind? It's that small, and MAN was it tiny. Doubling the radius would help tremendously and make casting unempLS much more rewarding.

    I would love to see more done with LS (especially with how it shoots a laser beam down on each target now), maybe with random Owlkin Frenzy procs from DoTs, or having it tick off of any attack instead of just single-target ones (including debuffs/DoTs and random ticking/pulsing damage), etc.

    Idk there's just so many things they could do to fix the problem besides giving a minor buff to our most boring and non-interactive spells. They also returned to an ever-so-slightly better iteration of the original version of W&W which was 5% and deemed way too weak to be given a fuck about, now at 6% a stack, rather than just flat out replacing it.
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  10. #50
    The damage nerf itself isn't what bothers me, it's the fact that we've been warning them this shit was going to happen with Wax and Wane before the trait was even on live servers. It was either going to be completely insignificant or had to be buffed to the point of overtaking unempowered SW/LS as a filler (which in the big picture doesn't matter much as they both do pitiful dmg when they don't scale with mastery). Then they release a terrible T21 4p that only works for AOE (which you could've fixed simply by adding LS & SW to it), and once again ignore all the feedback regarding the issues it has. Instead they decide to nerf our T20p which was the only thing keeping us viable on ST, putting us dead last on single target. Okay, I can live with that, I can still be useful on the 5 out of 11 bosses that aren't single target and luckily there is a lot of 3 tank or 5 heal encounters. But then they post this shit, which just makes me want to never give them any feedback ever again:


  11. #51
    In the end "engaging" playstyle or otherwise, it is definitely no fun to be underpowered. The compensation to SW / LW is pitiful and nowhere near enough for either ST or AOE. Looks like it's Feral or bench it seems. I think I'm ready to give up on WoW for now anyway.

  12. #52
    Does that effectively kill the use of Cloak in favor of the bracers again?

  13. #53
    It would be nice to have something that makes Lunar Strike usable in aoe fights.
    I don't know, something like dot ticks having a % chance of making your next Starfall give you 1 stack of lunar (and solar?) empowerment.

    It's just so weird that we never use our cleave/aoe filler in aoe situations.
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    I don't really get how Bloodlust fits Shamans...

    "I need to calm the elements, and through our sacred bond we will - wait, is that a fucking boss? I'M SO FUCKING ANGRY! I'M GOING TO KILL HIM! NO, WAIT! I'M GOING TO RAPE HIM THEN KILL HIM! WITH SPOONS! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE!"

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Yeah you don’t look at logs ever.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/17#boss=2070

    Affliction is higher on Eonar but that’s only because bats don’t sit there in Starfall.
    Yeah thats the only fight where moonkins dominate, in each other fight its mostly locks...

  15. #55
    Mission Optimizer Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ichime View Post
    It would be nice to have something that makes Lunar Strike usable in aoe fights.
    I don't know, something like dot ticks having a % chance of making your next Starfall give you 1 stack of lunar (and solar?) empowerment.

    It's just so weird that we never use our cleave/aoe filler in aoe situations.
    Or making it not be a puny 5y radius would help. When I played Mage last expansion, Splitting Ice (a talent that made Ice Lance and Icicles cleave to a second target) had the same issue before they eventually buffed it to 8y. Still kinda small but at least it wouldn't not cleave onto targets that were within melee ranges of each other.

    Lunar Strike never got any love at all and is even worse because it needs ALL targets to be within that 5y radius, not just a second target. It's such an awkward and tacked-on spell that's literally only cast each time you Starsurge that feels like it's only been kept because it's been here since Vanilla and a part of the Eclipse system whenever that began (totally don't remember). Like if they made Boomkin a brand new spec this expansion, they wouldn't even think to have something as awkward as it because it makes no sense. If it's intended to be cast in AoE situations, the radius should be hugely bigger, massively bigger.

    As a crazy idea, what if the radius was increased to 10y, and on top of that, it would hit every target, regardless of range from the primary target, that's inside a Starfall? Also increasing its splash damage would be neato. Maybe the splash could benefit from Stellar Emp?
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2018-01-07 at 05:18 PM.
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  16. #56
    Is there a chance of the nerf not to go through the way as it is or usually stuff like this go through to the live server for at least until the next hotfix?

  17. #57
    Mission Optimizer Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saitama View Post
    Is there a chance of the nerf not to go through the way as it is or usually stuff like this go through to the live server for at least until the next hotfix?
    No it's pretty much guaranteed to happen on Tuesday. The chance would be if they actually listened to us in the past or if they decide "hmmm making a 0.01% DPS increase trait might not be the best idea, let's replace it with something", but Blizzard usually takes the easy way by nerfing something to oblivion rather than replacing it or buffing other things. This was the cheapest, laziest, fix that also causes unwarranted nerfing elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    But then they post this shit, which just makes me want to never give them any feedback ever again
    I've played this game for 13 years and it's why I'm feeling so jaded and pessimistic about pretty much anything now. They keep saying how they want your feedback then continue to ignore it for years and years. The proof is in the pudding especially with Warlords of Draenor and Legion; they got overwhelming amounts of feedback regarding the lack of content in WoD and the RNG/Legendary systems in Legion. Both went completely ignored and they proceeded as planned. WoD was a complete disaster and will likely remain nigh-unanimously the worst expansion, and Legion continues to suffer from the RNG bullshit. 7.3.5 finally gives a way to work for a legendary, something that is way too little way too late into this expansion. Regarding class stuff, I've suffered through that with Mage especially since MoP-WoD which ultimately led to me picking another class after playing it as my main since 2.4.3 all the way up to 7.0.3 (which is funny because now I feel like I'm in that same boat again and plan to pick another for BfA if nothing gets fixed).

    Idk, maybe shit will get fixed for BfA, but this is the kind of half-assed "fix" that I get furious about, especially given that they were told numerous times about this.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2018-01-07 at 05:28 PM.
    Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
    Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit (lol it didn't).
    Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that will continue in BfA.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Yeah it’s a heavy DoT class that’s how it should be. Shadow Priests and Affliction should be top on council fights.
    and then affliction can still keep up there on mythic garothi and you know the spec is just hilariously overpowered and has no downside at all.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    I've played this game for 13 years and it's why I'm feeling so jaded and pessimistic about pretty much anything now. They keep saying how they want your feedback then continue to ignore it for years and years.
    Actually they dont ignore feedbacks and inputs, they read them and then they say " we think its best "....

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    and then affliction can still keep up there on mythic garothi and you know the spec is just hilariously overpowered and has no downside at all.
    Yeah being lower middle field on garothi really proves how op affliction is. Duh. Affliction has many downsides .. only a foolish one button spamming owl would think affliction has no downsides lol.

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