"But it's optional!"

[Darktbs]

I believe a lot of point are missing the point that I think the OP was trying to make.

Everything is optional. Getting out of bed, making breakfast, going to work, having a family, going to school, playing video games, breathing. Using "But it's optional" as a counter argument to anything is irrelevant; I don't know what part of the game the OP is irked by but that doesn't matter, the point is that the argument is stupid.

Example of how the argument is really irritating :

"I think BGs have lost their touch over the years, I don't get the same joy from them and I don't know why, help?", responded with, "Well no one's forcing you to do them, they're optional". See what I mean? You're not offering anything constructive, the person making the statement was looking for a discussion as to why BGs may not be as enjoyable anymore, then someone had to come along and state what they already know. It just makes me roll my eyes every time I see it.

And yeah, I get that some people get annoyed by some really irrelevant shit and it can be hard to not get frustrated that they're making such a fuss over nothing, but that doesn't change the fact that stating that it's optional is redundant.

While i do agree the stament can be irritanting.

Its not invalid in certain situations.

Because at the same time someone don't enjoy sometime, others might do.

For example:People saying that Heirlooms ruin their leveling experience.This is true for the guy/gal but there are hundres of people that like having heirlooms and speed level the whole thing.

And its much better to have a optional system because only those that want use it.Rather then force everyone into speedleveling or slow level.

Its depends heavily to the context the "Its optional" is being applied.

[Alkizon]

Darktbs
While i do agree the stament can be irritanting.

Its not invalid in certain situations.

Because at the same time someone don't enjoy sometime, others might do.

For example:People saying that Heirlooms ruin their leveling experience.This is true for the guy/gal but there are hundres of people that like having heirlooms and speed level the whole thing.

And its much better to have a optional system because only those that want use it.Rather then force everyone into speedleveling or slow level.

Its depends heavily to the context the "Its optional" is being applied.

They could keep separate server for people who "want it all", and for those who "don't" - and that's option would be much more honest (so these people won't meet and will not spoil each other's mood), but when this wretched creature stand next to you and no difference between, then you don't get any "visual" and tangible achievement, even if exclusively moral. On the other hand, signature near character testifying your much more painstaking (I wanted to avoid the word hardcore) approach could serve at least some moral satisfaction and indicator, but it would be much more satisfying to just stand next to someone else who understands value of your action. And that's the way all can be satisfied.

By the way, funny thing, if this would be done in achievement form, then achievement-addiction ones will begin to whine about how life is unfair.
(an example of a stupid idea, since people seem (sounds absurdity, but), that without gaining it they lose something, and if there are no achievements in the game, there is nothing to lose - psychological problem of "collectors" is solved. So it's better not to have visual confirmation amount of what you "can get": no lists, no collections and the way to get information should be exclusively "social" (datamining is a cancer) and this is exactly the case of an "unsuccessful" option in game)

So you are very wrong in your option example, but still are right in more global sense - there are certain moments that can and should be optional. Problem in implementing of such or another idea and predicting consequences. There is no standard solution, they must be taken individually in each case, but, judging by organization of work in the company, Blizzard doesn't worry about the last one, they doing stuff just for doing stuff. Stupid, but cheap solution.

[Lychee3000]

If the OP has come back to WoW two months ago and finds the rep grind boring and tedious... Why weren't you subbed for the whole time the rep was and is available? You could have gotten exalted a long time ago if you had played Legion earlier.

And your argument against new players coming into the game down the road and wanting to play an allied race... Well, you need to do the work to get it no matter what kind of grind it is, even if you have to do outdated content. Just like you need to do multiple mount runs of a raid to get that 1% chance of getting that mount even though it was a 100% chance for those who played at that time. Or not getting the MoP challenge Mode armors or WoD challenge mode weapons when they were current. Or the legendary cloak questline or the legendary ring questline that was taken out of the game. Or the moost mount for getting H Archi achievement before it was taken away. You should be happy that you will get those 4 Allied Races at all before BFA releases (or even after) since it will only require doing Legion content to get it. Also, lore-wise it makes sense to get those reps so you can get access to those 4 races. After all, you are asking them to join you in the fight for Azeroth so you need the rep with them to get them to join you otherwise they wouldn't join you since you are not deemed worthy to have them. Blizzard will also do a questline for each of the Allied Races as well to get them.

You have to do the work required to get access to these things, same with the Heritage armor. Also, getting access to these races is an optional thing since it's cosmetic, same with the Heritage Armor. And these are Allied Races, and not regular races you get with a new expansion. So of course, it will have a requirement since Blizzard wants it that way. You have to adapt to get it or you don't adapt and not get it.

Most likely, the outcome of this whole rep requirement down the road will be that Blizzard will nerf it when BFA releases like maybe increasing the rep gain for the activities required to get that exalted rep. Just an example... There could be other examples.

Also, to those people arguing that Allied Races are a BFA feature... The Dark Irons and the Zandalaris will be the ones attainable in BFA. The other four Allied races will be the feature of Legion so it will require Legion requirements to get... And you purchased the game for those two additional allied races so your money is buying a game that will have its feature as it should (the two Allied Races I mentioned earlier).

[athrun7189]

the truth is :
playing is optional

[Projectmars]

Just because they are optional doesn’t make Void Elves or Lightforged Draenei any good.

[IceMan1763]

Gods. I am so tired of seeing this bandied about as if it were the end-all be-all of counter arguments.

It's not a counter argument. It's an affirmative defense. If you're on trial for murder and you say, "Yes, I killed them but here's my reason," that's an affirmative defense. You're admitting to the charges but saying it's acceptable because of something. In WoW and other MMOs, "it's optional" is an affirmative defense.

"This grind is so boring!"

"It's optional!"

You're not refuting that it's a boring ass grind, you're affirming that it's a boring ass grind. Yes, it's boring, but it's optional.

Literally everything in the game is optional. The problem is there's different levels of optional. Leveling is optional, but it's the only way to unlock content. Artifacts are enitrely optional, but they're also one of the primary focus points of the entire Legion expansion. You don't have to use them. But they're not as optional as say a vanity mount that takes months to grind out.

"It's optional" is a really dumb, meaningless, and hollow thing to say.

Pointing out that something in a video game is boring or takes too long is a perfectly valid criticism. Games should be fun. It's really not hard to figure out. A video game being boring is a flaw, not a feature. It would be great if people didn't pretend otherwise.

Amen brutha!!!!!

Getting your artifact maxxed out is "optional".... LOL to the morons who buy BS Blizzard propaganda statements like this when any sensible person knows it simply cannot be true. For example, you couldn't kill several Mythic bosses in NH without the extra HP/dmg trait at a certain level, so, basically it's optional if you're a pet collector in the game and don't raid at all. In Blizzard's mind that qualifies as honesty if they can find one player segment who isn't affected by their shitty ass boring grinds like AP in Legion.

[Super Kami Dende]

Amen brutha!!!!!

Getting your artifact maxxed out is "optional".... LOL to the morons who buy BS Blizzard propaganda statements like this when any sensible person knows it simply cannot be true. For example, you couldn't kill several Mythic bosses in NH without the extra HP/dmg trait at a certain level, so, basically it's optional if you're a pet collector in the game and don't raid at all. In Blizzard's mind that qualifies as honesty if they can find one player segment who isn't affected by their shitty ass boring grinds like AP in Legion.

It's almost as if choosing to be a Mythic Raider is Optional and in choosing that Option you take on the requirements for it.

[judgementofantonidas]

Gods. I am so tired of seeing this bandied about as if it were the end-all be-all of counter arguments.

It's not a counter argument. It's an affirmative defense. If you're on trial for murder and you say, "Yes, I killed them but here's my reason," that's an affirmative defense. You're admitting to the charges but saying it's acceptable because of something. In WoW and other MMOs, "it's optional" is an affirmative defense.

"This grind is so boring!"

"It's optional!"

You're not refuting that it's a boring ass grind, you're affirming that it's a boring ass grind. Yes, it's boring, but it's optional.

Literally everything in the game is optional. The problem is there's different levels of optional. Leveling is optional, but it's the only way to unlock content. Artifacts are enitrely optional, but they're also one of the primary focus points of the entire Legion expansion. You don't have to use them. But they're not as optional as say a vanity mount that takes months to grind out.

"It's optional" is a really dumb, meaningless, and hollow thing to say.

Pointing out that something in a video game is boring or takes too long is a perfectly valid criticism. Games should be fun. It's really not hard to figure out. A video game being boring is a flaw, not a feature. It would be great if people didn't pretend otherwise.

Reading silly posts like this is optional.
But people still choose to do so in order to point out how silly they are.

[Molis]

Continuosly pointing out game mechanics that you do not find "fun" while giving no valid feedback is not a valid strategy.
So the first thing normal people say is quit complaining its optional.

I could see a point about flying or a maxed artifact, however if this is about allied races.

Hahahahaha....that is as optional as having the achievement for collecting 100 cats

[Detheavn]

Because people are willing to put up with shit they don't like to get to do the things they do like. For example: shitty job and food. I don't like my shitty job but I really like having food to eat. Some people really like raiding so will put up with lots of shit they don't like to get to raid.

Problem is, this is a game. It shouldn't be a shitty part-time job.

Ah man, I had this problem myself not long ago.
Then I got a job at a different company.
Now I am having fun at work AND have food to eat!

[Heladys]

It's optional, bud.

[Ranganathan]

OOh! An update. I finally got another rep mission! That makes 3 total...and this one's actually a Highmountain rep mission. The one I'm actually after. Only took about 2.5 months for it to show up. So doing a bit of math and going on that one poster's notion that "the main way to get rep is Missions", and starting from around 0/12000 Honored where finishing the zone quests put you, needing another 33,000 rep to hit exalted...it'll only take about 13.75 years and I'll finally reach exalted with Highmountain. Perfect.

Or, you know, do everything that garners the rep you want and reach it in about 3 months of hard grinding.

But clearly rep missions are far more efficient.

[Byleth]

"This grind is so boring!"

You're argument is totally based upon that fact that everyone agrees that the things you personally don't enjoy or find boring, are the same things everyone else does.

This is just not the case. Some people really like grinding repetitive content, some people like working slowly towards an achievement. Some people like the challenge of taking on a really long quest for literally no reward.

It's totally fine that you don't enjoy something... But it is OPTIONAL. Just do the bits you do enjoy - You do you. Also, why do you need to have everything your way? Other people exist you know :P

[gobio]

You're argument is totally based upon that fact that everyone agrees that the things you personally don't enjoy or find boring, are the same things everyone else does.

This is just not the case. Some people really like grinding repetitive content, some people like working slowly towards an achievement. Some people like the challenge of taking on a really long quest for literally no reward.

It's totally fine that you don't enjoy something... But it is OPTIONAL. Just do the bits you do enjoy - You do you. Also, why do you need to have everything your way? Other people exist you know :P

Your post is a sliding argument.
I go to a shop and I see they sell 80% biscuit 20% cookie, but I told them I want more options of cookie.
The next day the shop are full of cookies. Your sliding argument is that I force the shop to sell cookie. This is not true. The shop, after listening to opinion of their customers, including me, but not only me, decided to drop biscuit and sell cookie. YOU would tell me that I want things my way and "biscuit loving people exist you know"... Tell you what FREE MARKET, I love it!

[Valrysha]

True

There is nothing more stupid on debates like:
-Flying
-Leveling in Dungeons VS Leveling in the World

...when someone says "but is optional"
It's the most stupid thing i have ever heard And people say it A LOT!

Yep. You may be, like myself, anti-flying. Am I going to run around on my ground mount where I have flying? No. Because that'd be just a waste of my time. I feel like my experience is devalued from having such convenience.

etc etc

[Spacewalrus2010]

I want to unlock Highmountain Tauren. Finishing all the quests in Highmountain puts me at about 0/12000 Honored. I've got to reach Exalted before they unlock. So I've got to earn 33,000 rep with Highmountain to unlock them. Okay. Fine. But the main way to do that is WQs...that give 75 rep each. Which is 440 Highmountain WQs. At only 5-7 per day...that's about 3 months of solid daily grinding. And that's for one of the four allied races. You've got to repeat that arduous grind for each one. Yeah, "they're optional", but so is every race except humans and orcs. You could even argue that most classes are optional. Yet all the other races are freely available and only the two hero classes have gates, one being a level 55 character to unlock dks (which has been removed) and now the dhs which require a level 70 character. But leveling is the bare minimum gameplay. Having races unlock after a months long rep grind that's locked behind a max level toon with friendly rep with four factions is fucking stupid.

I am kind of neutral on this in regards to the exalted requirement. I'm willing to bet BfA expansion will include ways to generate rep for those factions without having to do "old" content.

But all that aside, you forgot quite a few things in your "calculation":

1) emissary (+1500 rep)
2) Kiron Tor (+1500 rep or +750 for Nightfallen)
3) Darkmoon Faire rep boosts
4) World Quest Bonus Event (50% more rep from WQs)
5) Highmountain Tribe Insignia from Order Hall missions (+250 and +750 for bonus roll)

Granted it will still take time, but it will be less than what you imagine.

[Kagthul]

OOh! An update. I finally got another rep mission! That makes 3 total...and this one's actually a Highmountain rep mission. The one I'm actually after. Only took about 2.5 months for it to show up. So doing a bit of math and going on that one poster's notion that "the main way to get rep is Missions", and starting from around 0/12000 Honored where finishing the zone quests put you, needing another 33,000 rep to hit exalted...it'll only take about 13.75 years and I'll finally reach exalted with Highmountain. Perfect.

Or, you know, do everything that garners the rep you want and reach it in about 3 months of hard grinding.

But clearly rep missions are far more efficient.

As promised:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/yczBGRTGCtwDvHc73

That's two days of rep tokens.

Notice the 4000 rep worth of Highmountain. And thats a "bad RNG" session (look at all those damn Legionfall tokens...)

Last two shots are of one character - with two rep missions available and one underway. Thats 3 chances at another 1500 rep token each.

But, by all means, continue one with how its impossible for you, how the game is coded differently and doesn't work that way with you, etc etc.

Or how you cant possibly get more than one character to max because 15 minutes of invasions per day for a few days is just too much investment.

How many Highmountain Invasions have you missed in the last 2 1/2 days? (Three, the answer is three).

Oh, and it's Highmountain Emissary today. For another 1500 rep.

So... so in the last 2 1/2 days you've apparently managed to miss 6000 rep.

When you want to quit wallowing and whining, someone may care. As for me, i'm done trying to help you. I've proven to you how it works. You just wont listen. Enjoy ignore, troll.

[Ranganathan]

I am kind of neutral on this in regards to the exalted requirement. I'm willing to bet BfA expansion will include ways to generate rep for those factions without having to do "old" content.

But all that aside, you forgot quite a few things in your "calculation":

1) emissary (+1500 rep)
2) Kiron Tor (+1500 rep or +750 for Nightfallen)
3) Darkmoon Faire rep boosts
4) World Quest Bonus Event (50% more rep from WQs)
5) Highmountain Tribe Insignia from Order Hall missions (+250 and +750 for bonus roll)

Granted it will still take time, but it will be less than what you imagine.

Oh, no, I didn't forget them. They were discussed throughout the thread.

1. Emissary pops for Highmountain, what, once a week, every other week, if that? And they take 2-3 days to actually reset. So it's random but eventual, sort of. It's only a short list to pull from. You might not see them for two or three weeks, but they'll eventually show up.

2. Was discussed.

3. Yep.

4. Uh huh. How often does that one pop again?

5. Too right, but those are based on RNG. And I have terrible luck with RNG. For example, I've been back for 2.5 months. In that time I've only seen 3 rep missions, including one today. And only today did I see my first Highmountain rep mission. These will certainly help, but you cannot plan for anything that's based on RNG. Eventually, maybe. If the RNG gods smile upon you. For me, they typically shit from on high.

6. Neltharion's Lair. It's only 250 per run, but it'll add up.

So yeah. You can pull it off, eventually, with emissary quests and missions. But it's much quicker to grind HM world quests and Nel's Lair. It's not a question of putting in work, as so many people assume. I have the Venomhide Ravasaur. I've got the Titanium Seal of Dalaran. I'm a fishing derby win away from Salty. It's not about the work or the time. Hell, I like fishing, so clearly I don't mind something if it's a bit boring. (Actually find it quite relaxing just plopping in a spot and throwing the line out for ten minutes. It's a nice change from all the constant running around and chasing after 1s and 0s.) It's with how fucking boring and long the rep grind in Legion is.

It's just too damned long. WQs should give at least double the rep they do in live. The new races shouldn't be locked behind anything, other than buying the new expansion. But if they're going to gate them, at least make it a more reasonable grind, say Revered instead of Exalted. Hell, just completing the zone questing achievement should be enough. As it stands it's an unfair burden on returning and new players. I get exclusivity and gating in MMOs. Honestly. But basic stuff like classes and races shouldn't be gated. I think the original DK level limit was tiny and silly. It never should have been there. For DH it's vaguely understandable, but still silly. A new player coming in for just the DH has to play a class they're not interested in or waste their level boost on a character they don't want to play just to unlock a class? Fuck that.

[Byleth]

Your post is a sliding argument.
I go to a shop and I see they sell 80% biscuit 20% cookie, but I told them I want more options of cookie.
The next day the shop are full of cookies. Your sliding argument is that I force the shop to sell cookie. This is not true. The shop, after listening to opinion of their customers, including me, but not only me, decided to drop biscuit and sell cookie. YOU would tell me that I want things my way and "biscuit loving people exist you know"... Tell you what FREE MARKET, I love it!

You don't have to buy a biscuit or a cookie, both are optional. My argument stands.

There's more than enough content in WoW for biscuit and cookie lovers. Are you arguing that there should be more cookie than biscuit? What the OP is arguing from my viewpoint is that he hates biscuits, there should be cookie for everyone.

No one, especially me, is saying that feedback is bad. Just stop trying to take my favorite biscuit away :P

[Lightbull]

Grinding is just another means to an end. Some people like it, some people don't. I personally don't, but that doesn't mean I go and ruin it for others.

I'd be annoyed if the grind was mandatory, because that means I need to do something I don't enjoy doing. But that's why it's optional in this case.