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  1. #21
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    And saying that it isn't true doesn't make it not true.

    The facts are that Mercy, from what I recall, was pretty high ranked. She was often tiered pretty high, normally with Lucio. She was never considered "poor", but people complained that when they used her ultimate, they would be immediately picked off (which was true).

    If you have a real argument that isn't just whining that I said resurrection is very hard/impossible to correctly balance, let me hear it.
    Sept 21 week before rework, Tier 4 (<5% usage): https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-0...kpocalypse-now

    August 22. still Tier 4: https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-0...-fists-of-fury

    April 19th, Tier 4: https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-0...rogue-squadron

    March 7th Trash tier! https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-0...crisis-averted

    You see, I do actually back my words up, check the fact, I don't just say things them because they come into my head.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    You see, I do actually back my words up, check the fact, I don't just say things them because they come into my head.
    Ah, right. I do recall her falling further down tier lists after Ana came out.

    At any rate, this has nothing to do with the conversation concerning Mercy's ultimate. I mean, if anything, it only validates my argument because it proves Mercy is badly designed and balanced.

    So like I said, present a real argument and drop the bitchy attitude or please stop posting here.

  3. #23
    Mercy is fine when it comes to tournament/real competitive play, where the high end of players reside. The problem comes from the fact that Blizzard tries to make tourney players as well as everyday casuals happy. People high tier aren't complaining about her because she really isn't that great, but the people Plat and below cry about her nonstop because they don't know how to handle her.
    Basic OW player: Mercy flies in and rezzes her teammate in front of the whole enemy team, "we can't push!"
    Higher skill player: Mercy flies in, starts Rez in front of enemy team, scenario A: enemy focuses her, she dies and person she Rez'd dies as they stand up, or scenario B: Mercy flies in to Rez in front of enemy team, dies immediately, "okay guys let's push these fuckers back! THIS! IS! OVERWATCH!!!"
    Blizzard is going to change her, hands down, simply because the change makes lower ranks happy while having no bearing on the tourney side of things.
    The characters they should be focusing on is making Ana better again (something along the lines of letting her darts go thru barriers to heal her team, yet do no damage to the enemy), or reducing some of Moira's potency (even i admit she's too strong when she can effectively 1v1 a lot of people.
    Figuring out ways to bring Mei into the game a bit more, although admittedly I have no clue how without making her borderline broken. Buffing Torb a bit, nothing crazy, but maybe give his personal fire a bit of oomph while leaving the turret alone.
    Im getting offtopic though. So, to bring it back to the forum: Mercy isn't OP, she just seems that way to people that aren't skilled at the gameplay. Is that an insult? No, but it is a fact that people that have issues with tracking, awareness, communication, Ult usage, etc, are going to see her as a much bigger problem than she actually is.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Ah, right. I do recall her falling further down tier lists after Ana came out.

    At any rate, this has nothing to do with the conversation concerning Mercy's ultimate. I mean, if anything, it only validates my argument because it proves Mercy is badly designed and balanced.

    So like I said, present a real argument and drop the bitchy attitude or please stop posting here.
    If you go back like 2 posts, you can see me talk about her rez, and why changes happened to her rez that you completely ignored.
    She was played less than Ana because Ana was released in a completely broken state where she outhealed (HPS) mercy, had sleep dart to shut down enemy ults, had a very good ult herself, could stop enemy healing, or increase her own team's healing (always paired with Lucio), and in the meta at the time barely had to aim due to how many tanks there were.

    Rez isn't some super broken mechanic that's impossible to balance around, it was fine, she just had other problems at the time.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Ah, right. I do recall her falling further down tier lists after Ana came out.

    At any rate, this has nothing to do with the conversation concerning Mercy's ultimate. I mean, if anything, it only validates my argument because it proves Mercy is badly designed and balanced.

    So like I said, present a real argument and drop the bitchy attitude or please stop posting here.
    Pretty sure Jess backed up her arguement.
    As she linked, early on the go to picks were Lucio, and then you would have Zen or Mercy. Not a whole lot of healers at the time, and most went Zen because he provided extra reliable damage to a focused target, not just one player on your team.
    Mercy fell further when Ana came out due to Ana doing what Zen did as well as stopping Zen's Ult in its tracks AND having high healing from just her E button. Lucio stayed a primary pick.
    Since then, a lot of higher tier/tourney players stick with Lucio/Zen, and sometimes Mercy depending on maps. Mercy provides "oh shit" moment recovery, where the others provide steady utility, reactive/proactive Ults, damage increase for the entire team, and the ability to do damage while healing. Moira might see a surge in popularity, but will have to give her more time.
    Fact of the matter is that Jess is correct and her links show that. Arguing it is futile and kind of silly.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Pretty sure Jess backed up her arguement.
    As she linked, early on the go to picks were Lucio, and then you would have Zen or Mercy. Not a whole lot of healers at the time, and most went Zen because he provided extra reliable damage to a focused target, not just one player on your team.
    Mercy fell further when Ana came out due to Ana doing what Zen did as well as stopping Zen's Ult in its tracks AND having high healing from just her E button. Lucio stayed a primary pick.
    Since then, a lot of higher tier/tourney players stick with Lucio/Zen, and sometimes Mercy depending on maps. Mercy provides "oh shit" moment recovery, where the others provide steady utility, reactive/proactive Ults, damage increase for the entire team, and the ability to do damage while healing. Moira might see a surge in popularity, but will have to give her more time.
    Fact of the matter is that Jess is correct and her links show that. Arguing it is futile and kind of silly.
    Pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about.

    Jessicka said Mercy fell down in picks/tiers. I said I remembered Mercy always being competitive with Lucio and Zenyatta, though I now admit I recall Mercy's popularity falling after Ana came out (in light of Jessicka posting tier lists).

    But that has nothing to do with the main argument of Mercy's resurrection being a stupid concept. So, you know. Pretty sure you should comprehend an argument before deciding you know what's even going on in it.

  7. #27
    The Rez isn't the problem, it was when they decided to go around and change everything stuff went down the drain.
    It's like Blizzard telling me I can't have a steak because there aren't enough cows left, but then tell me I can have as many hamburgers as I could possibly eat. That is exactly their logic with Void Elves which literally leaves no excuse as to why there can't be High Elves.

    https://youtu.be/C2Sr-sadSk4 - Check it out, it's enlightening.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Better View Post
    If you go back like 2 posts, you can see me talk about her rez, and why changes happened to her rez that you completely ignored.
    She was played less than Ana because Ana was released in a completely broken state where she outhealed (HPS) mercy, had sleep dart to shut down enemy ults, had a very good ult herself, could stop enemy healing, or increase her own team's healing (always paired with Lucio), and in the meta at the time barely had to aim due to how many tanks there were.

    Rez isn't some super broken mechanic that's impossible to balance around, it was fine, she just had other problems at the time.
    I firmly recall how broken Ana was, yes.

    But just because Ana was better than Mercy doesn't mean resurrection isn't problematic or broken by itself. This is a fake argument. Mercy has always had problems related to her ultimate, and she keeps undergoing change after change because of it. Even if Mercy, as a whole package, isn't powerful at a given moment, it's still entirely possible that a thing she does (in this case, her resurrection) is a problem.

    I mean the fact remains that Blizzard doesn't know how to balance her resurrection. Part of my argument is that resurrections are stupid and only lead to the types of problems we see happening with Mercy right now. So just drop the concept and go with something else.

  9. #29
    I think that the new changes they're thinking about sound really good. They've been moving in the right direction with Mercy and the only real problem she has is that her ulti does too many things at once and is excessive. Toning it down makes perfect sense IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Stop saying this. People keep saying it, but repetition doesn't make it true.

    The facts are that it was fine from Season 1 through 5. In fact, she was considered pretty poor as a hero up until she received the invulnerability buff in S6, when she was simply considered viable, if somewhat annoying.
    She's always been one of the top supports in OW, if not mandatory.

    I wouldn't say it's impossible to balance, but it is very difficult.

    The bigger problem with the original form of Mercy wasn't so much the balance but rather how it ultimately encouraged players to hide until the team wiped, run in and res, and then go back to hiding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    I firmly recall how broken Ana was, yes.

    But just because Ana was better than Mercy doesn't mean resurrection isn't problematic or broken by itself. This is a fake argument. Mercy has always had problems related to her ultimate, and she keeps undergoing change after change because of it. Even if Mercy, as a whole package, isn't powerful at a given moment, it's still entirely possible that a thing she does (in this case, her resurrection) is a problem.

    I mean the fact remains that Blizzard doesn't know how to balance her resurrection. Part of my argument is that resurrections are stupid and only lead to the types of problems we see happening with Mercy right now. So just drop the concept and go with something else.
    Ok so you seem to not understand the different between having a problem "Balancing" something, and not liking the playstyle something promotes. The old rez was "balanced", they changed it, not because it wasn't balanced, but because it promoted a playstyle they didn't like. Where Mercy players hid after getting their ult. Like I said now 6 or so posts back they made her immune during the rez to promote it's use in other situations, because now mercy would die when using it FAR less often. Most players didn't change playstyles the way Blizzard wanted. This is when the rework came in.

    So again. This isn't because Rez was imbalanced. It promoted a playstyle Blizzard didn't like. These are two completely different things, and if you were arguing about the playstyle that rez promotes you could actually have a legitimate discussion on the topic. But saying it's imbalanced, or impossible to balance around is just false.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Better View Post
    The old rez was "balanced",
    No it wasn't.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    No it wasn't.
    Oh man, this claim with all these facts to back it up. Not at all just saying "Nuh uh."

    This is when they made her immune during rez
    "Developer Comments: Mercy’s Resurrect has always been very powerful, but it often forces her to sacrifice herself to use it well. There have been changes in the past that attempted to help her in this area, but haven’t done enough to solve it. This change means that once she uses the ability, she will always survive long enough to be with her team again."

    This is when they changed the ult itself.
    "Developer Comments: While resurrecting downed allies is a core part of Mercy’s gameplay, the way her Ultimate functioned was causing a number of problems. It was frustrating to play against, and it incentivized Mercy players to hide away from important battles, instead of taking part in them. This version turns Resurrect into a single target ability. It’s still an important part of Mercy’s kit, but plays much better for both Mercy players and her enemies. Valkyrie, her new Ultimate, gives her the opportunity for big game-making plays and opens a number of new options for her."

    Note: They never said it was too powerful, or hard to balance around. Both times they mentioned something in the playstyle of how it was used. "Forces her to sacrifice herself to use it well." This is something in the playstyle they didn't like. The 2nd one should be obvious.

  13. #33
    Yeah, they pussyfooted around calling it too powerful. They simply write it off as "frustrating to play against", when in translation, this actually means "one Mercy ult was nullifying two, three or even four enemy ults at once". That by itself was way too powerful and unlike any other form of countering ults, Mercy was able to use her ult after her team was already dead. It's not like Zenyetta ulting in reaction to an assumed push. It's not like any other hero ulting in reaction. It was just Mercy responding to a wipe, all while hiding at the back lines with her ultimate ready to go.

    Expecting the developers to outright admit "it was too strong" is fucking stupid. You can't use their words and then say 'LOOK LOOK I'M RIGHT' just because they don't blatantly say "Rez was op".

    Your argument is like, amazingly shit.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Yeah, they pussyfooted around calling it too powerful. They simply write it off as "frustrating to play against", when in translation, this actually means "one Mercy ult was nullifying two, three or even four enemy ults at once". That by itself was way too powerful and unlike any other form of countering ults, Mercy was able to use her ult after her team was already dead. It's not like Zenyetta ulting in reaction to an assumed push. It's not like any other hero ulting in reaction. It was just Mercy responding to a wipe, all while hiding at the back lines with her ultimate ready to go.

    Expecting the developers to outright admit "it was too strong" is fucking stupid. You can't use their words and then say 'LOOK LOOK I'M RIGHT' just because they don't blatantly say "Rez was op".

    Your argument is like, amazingly shit.
    The first change was literally a buff. Objectively only a buff. In what possible world do you buff something that's too strong?
    The wording "Frustrating to play against" would be the exact wording they'd use to describe something like Tracer. Tracer being frustrating to play against doesn't mean Tracer is too strong.

    They also use direct wording. Here's Mccree's first big nerf
    "Developer Comments: McCree was performing too well against all targets, making him feel like a must-pick in many situations. By reducing the damage of his alternate fire, McCree is now significantly weaker against tanks like Roadhog and Reinhardt, but still maintains his lethality against smaller targets like Tracer and Genji."

    Note how they don't dance around and say he was simply frustrating to play against. You just think rez was OP, and have no desire to learn it was actually fine, despite the many people in this very thread that have shown evidence contrary to that belief.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Better View Post
    The first change was literally a buff. Objectively only a buff. In what possible world do you buff something that's too strong?
    The wording "Frustrating to play against" would be the exact wording they'd use to describe something like Tracer. Tracer being frustrating to play against doesn't mean Tracer is too strong.
    Mercy's ult was very powerful, but it came with the caveat of making her vulnerable while casting it, so the chances were very likely that you'd die every time you cast it, which wasn't very 'fair' or fun for the Mercy. The buff to her survivability was independent to the strength of the ultimate itself, and doesn't outright prove the ult was totally fine. And besides that, your argument is "the devs buffed it, so that means it wasn't whatever you accused it of!" which is a boring non-argument as it is. This is strike one to your ability of critical thinking.

    They also use direct wording. Here's Mccree's first big nerf
    "Developer Comments: McCree was performing too well against all targets, making him feel like a must-pick in many situations. By reducing the damage of his alternate fire, McCree is now significantly weaker against tanks like Roadhog and Reinhardt, but still maintains his lethality against smaller targets like Tracer and Genji."
    There was no denying at all the McCree was too powerful. He was simply an all around overpowered character who was the best DPS. He came with an on-demand stun (a counter to Tracer which, funny enough wouldn't you know, was also a counter to everyone else, too). He was the defacto best roamer and pretty damn good as a 'main dps' and killed tanks better than the heroes that were supposed to be anti-tank. Mercy on the other hand is a more complex issue that isn't just "Mercy is all around too good with no real competition for what she performs as". Of course they have to blatantly lay out how powerful McCree was. Just because they admitted McCree was too strong doesn't mean they've not used purposefully abstract language when talking about other character's problems. Strike two to your ability of critical thinking.

    Note how they don't dance around and say he was simply frustrating to play against. You just think rez was OP, and have no desire to learn it was actually fine, despite the many people in this very thread that have shown evidence contrary to that belief.
    I don't even necessarily think the rez was "OP" (your words, not mine, and you're obviously very asshurt at this point so let's not trust your version of things, no?), I just think it was imbalanced and I think that innately there's no good way to balance it. It should just be something else entirely and Mercy shouldn't have a rez. We might as well call this strike three to your ability of critical thinking.

    Oh well. Thanks for the posts.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about.

    Jessicka said Mercy fell down in picks/tiers. I said I remembered Mercy always being competitive with Lucio and Zenyatta, though I now admit I recall Mercy's popularity falling after Ana came out (in light of Jessicka posting tier lists).

    But that has nothing to do with the main argument of Mercy's resurrection being a stupid concept. So, you know. Pretty sure you should comprehend an argument before deciding you know what's even going on in it.
    Pretty sure you're grasping at straws. You say X arguement, its countered, you nitpick the counter to try and seem like your arguement is still valid. Here's a hint: it's not.
    Secondly, my post was directly tied to what you said to Jess (at first), and not about the forum post, also of which was not talking about her Rez. You then tried to spin that further. My next post Harv statements directly tied to her Rez and why she isn't OP, yet people act like she is.
    For someone that chastises about people getting comprehension, you sure seem to lack it. Willful ignorance is not a reason to act like you know something when proven wrong.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Pretty sure you're grasping at straws. You say X arguement, its countered, you nitpick the counter to try and seem like your arguement is still valid. Here's a hint: it's not.
    Uh, no. Jessicka originally tried to prove Mercy's ultimate couldn't possibly be bad or broken just because Mercy had low pickrates and was ranked low tier. I disagreed, saying I recalled Mercy always had pretty high pickrates competitive with Lucio. She then showed some lists from post-Ana, when Mercy fell out of popular favor. I apologized and agreed that I did indeed recall Mercy falling down in tiers.

    So that's a far fucking cry from "You say X argument, it's countered, you nitpick and try to seem like your argument is still valid". Are you this bad at reading, or a troll? Which one, me bucko?

    For someone that chastises about people getting comprehension, you sure seem to lack it. Willful ignorance is not a reason to act like you know something when proven wrong.
    The rest of your post makes absolutely no sense.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Uh, no. Jessicka originally tried to prove Mercy's ultimate couldn't possibly be bad or broken just because Mercy had low pickrates and was ranked low tier. I disagreed, saying I recalled Mercy always had pretty high pickrates competitive with Lucio. She then showed some lists from post-Ana, when Mercy fell out of popular favor. I apologized and agreed that I did indeed recall Mercy falling down in tiers.

    So that's a far fucking cry from "You say X argument, it's countered, you nitpick and try to seem like your argument is still valid". Are you this bad at reading, or a troll? Which one, me bucko?



    The rest of your post makes absolutely no sense.
    Mercy was never a relevant hero in pro play which is what those tier lists are based on, you'd only see her for PharMercy and some obscure gimmick strats.

    She, however, was completely unfun and obnoxious to play against in matchmaking where you saw her a lot because of how simple she is to play and she gained (not sure if she still does honestly) MMR at a very high rate because of the performance based rating system, there was a period of time where this was straight up abusable and it promoted degenerate playstyles like only ressing big groups instead of ever tempo ressing.

    Some big names in the community, pretty sure it was Seagull who made the most impact, made how much they disliked the hero vocal at some point and that eventually led to more people demanding changes and here we are.

    They should have simply tweaked the old ult and given her an interesting E that requires some modicum of skill to use and she probably would have been fine.
    Last edited by Woobels; 2018-01-07 at 05:59 AM.

  19. #39
    I thought making Mercy "invincible" during her original Resurrection Ult was a fucking retarded decision.

    Ultimately, that decision is responsible for the buff/nerf rollercoaster that she's been on thus far.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Oh well. Thanks for the posts.
    You like to point out critical thinking, but I've provided direct quotes, examples, data for what I'm saying. I'm not blindly asserting things. Your response a few posts back was literally "No it wasn't". Zero evidence or critical thinking went into the statement. There was no elaboration to a greater point.

    You simply believe yourself to be right in this situation, and continuing to present you with evidence to the contrary is pointless.

    Also like how you don't think you said it's OP "they pussyfooted around calling it too powerful" "Expecting the developers to outright admit "it was too strong" is fucking stupid."

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