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  1. #41
    Might just be easier to get rid of rez all together and give her a new E ability with a short/medium duration like:

    Empowered beam: Makes any overheal with the left click give the target a small amount of armor
    Strengthens the damage boost of the right click target

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Woobels View Post
    Mercy was never a relevant hero in pro play which is what those tier lists are based on, you'd only see her for PharMercy and some obscure gimmick strats.

    She, however, was completely unfun and obnoxious to play against in matchmaking where you saw her a lot because of how simple she is to play and she gained (not sure if she still does honestly) MMR at a very high rate because of the performance based rating system, there was a period of time where this was straight up abusable and it promoted degenerate playstyles like only ressing big groups instead of ever tempo ressing.

    Some big names in the community, pretty sure it was Seagull who made the most impact, made how much they disliked the hero vocal at some point and that eventually led to more people demanding changes and here we are.

    They should have simply tweaked the old ult and given her an interesting E that requires some modicum of skill to use and she probably would have been fine.
    I played Overwatch primarily when it came out (I actually hate the game, I played it because my girlfriend bought it for me and wanted me to play it, so I did for awhile) but I recall tier lists putting Mercy up with Lucio, Lucio in the lead with Zenyatta right behind Mercy. Unless I'm mistaken or remembering.

    I do also remember the "degenerate" MMR playstyle with Mercy, where people would intentionally not ult people unless there were several dead, so they could inflate their rating. Another, more minor, issue with Mercy ult.

    Like I said, I don't think she should be able to rezz. Blizzard themselves outright said it was frustrating to play against and it hurt the flow of matches. It made Mercy too much of a target, which was a huge problem for the Mercy, and promoted Mercy players to just sit around in the back, slowly charging their ults and never poking to the front lines for very long.

    There's just too many god damn problems with Mercy having a rezz. It's either too powerful or it's mediocre and promoting bad playstyles or habits, Blizzard isn't going to find a middle ground. Get rid of it.

  3. #43
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Ah, right. I do recall her falling further down tier lists after Ana came out.

    At any rate, this has nothing to do with the conversation concerning Mercy's ultimate. I mean, if anything, it only validates my argument because it proves Mercy is badly designed and balanced.

    So like I said, present a real argument and drop the bitchy attitude or please stop posting here.
    It’s got everything to do with it when you make ridiculous and demonstratively untrue statements about the strength of Res being somehow inately overpowered and completely not balance able. Then accuse me of lying about her being considered a weak hero while having such an ability.

    It is clearly possible to balance resurrection, and in S6 it was balanced statiscally.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It’s got everything to do with it when you make ridiculous and demonstratively untrue statements about the strength of Res being somehow inately overpowered and completely not balance able. Then accuse me of lying about her being considered a weak hero while having such an ability.

    It is clearly possible to balance resurrection, and in S6 it was balanced statiscally.
    I'm sorry, but no, just because the Hero as a package is considered lackluster doesn't mean something they do might not be too powerful.

    If you're so caught up on 'hard facts', Blizzard themselves outright admitted to the fact that Resurrection was not a fun mechanic to play against. There's so many issues with it.

    It's not fun to play against. It invalidates an entire push/successful team wipe.

    It makes Mercy a boring character. She only responds, she doesn't react. She sits in the back waiting for her team to die so she can ult.

    It turned her into a massive target, she almost always died when she ulted. That was not fun for the Mercy player. Making her invuln was a weird change, though, and started the whole string of messy, confused reworks.

    "Fixing" it just muddles the equation, you start trying to fix one issue but you're only going to make more.

    There's so much to argue for removing resurrection and retooling her character and pretty much nothing to argue for keeping resurrection. Why the fuck does she even need it? The game, and the character, would be in a much better spot if you just removed the concept.

  5. #45
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I think that the new changes they're thinking about sound really good. They've been moving in the right direction with Mercy and the only real problem she has is that her ulti does too many things at once and is excessive. Toning it down makes perfect sense IMO.



    She's always been one of the top supports in OW, if not mandatory.

    I wouldn't say it's impossible to balance, but it is very difficult.

    The bigger problem with the original form of Mercy wasn't so much the balance but rather how it ultimately encouraged players to hide until the team wiped, run in and res, and then go back to hiding.
    McCree and Reaper ults are built with hiding and surprise. Hell, the whole of Reapers kit is built to facilitate it.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    McCree and Reaper ults are built with hiding and surprise. Hell, the whole of Reapers kit is built to facilitate it.
    Comparing Mercy to McCree and Reaper like this is heavily exposing of how naive your concept of design is.

    McCree and Reaper are mobile 'ganker'-type characters that are meant to navigate the map and pick off enemies from behind or when they're separated from their team. Hit-and-run is what they are literally designed to do from the ground up. Mercy was, and still is, not intended to "run out, run back, hide". It's why they gave her ultimate an invuln effect. She was such a high priority target and she absolutely needed to die before ults were spent because having Mercy alive meant she was just going to reset your team wipe. So it promoted this "ultra safe" style of play for Mercy, where Mercy would never expose herself. Thus the enemy team had no choice but to just bear her presence, while the Mercy player had relatively little fun just healing from the backline and charging up the "oh shit" button ultimate. When Mercy exposed herself to position for her ult, 9 out of 10 times she'd die. Hence the invuln.

    This is a very deep and fundamental flaw with Mercy and it's very obvious that it escapes you.

  7. #47
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    I'm sorry, but no, just because the Hero as a package is considered lackluster doesn't mean something they do might not be too powerful.

    If you're so caught up on 'hard facts', Blizzard themselves outright admitted to the fact that Resurrection was not a fun mechanic to play against. There's so many issues with it. Valkyrie on PTR right now is probably the most underwhelming ult in the game.

    It's not fun to play against. It invalidates an entire push/successful team wipe.

    It makes Mercy a boring character. She only responds, she doesn't react. She sits in the back waiting for her team to die so she can ult.

    It turned her into a massive target, she almost always died when she ulted. That was not fun for the Mercy player. Making her invuln was a weird change, though, and started the whole string of messy, confused reworks.

    "Fixing" it just muddles the equation, you start trying to fix one issue but you're only going to make more.

    There's so much to argue for removing resurrection and retooling her character and pretty much nothing to argue for keeping resurrection. Why the fuck does she even need it? The game, and the character, would be in a much better spot if you just removed the concept.
    Not fun to play against =/= imbalanced. You ask for that you’re literally just making an emotional appeal to change the game based on something you just don’t like having to deal with. I can argue that against basically every hero and ability in the game. Importantly though you also have to consider whether it’s fun for the player doing it.

    Right from Beta, when Mercy was terrible, players asked for a new ability on E which would keep her in the fight and give her something extra to do to add gameplay. That is all that was ever needed. Really, it was adding the invulnerability that doubled down on hide and seek clutch ressing, because prior to that it was suicide and therefore preferable to keep everyone up. But Blizz liked those clutch resses.

    Again, this doesn’t make Res inately overpowered just by existing. It’s fun for the player doing it, and a clutch Res without the invulnerability regularly didn’t succeed because you didn’t have a healer to back it up afterward. It can be balanced, but they need to revisit S5 build and add that something on E. They already broke the “Mercy is a single target healer” argument against a HoT or Chain Heal, so we can go there and give her more to do to keep her in the fight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Comparing Mercy to McCree and Reaper like this is heavily exposing of how naive your concept of design is.

    McCree and Reaper are mobile 'ganker'-type characters that are meant to navigate the map and pick off enemies from behind or when they're separated from their team. Hit-and-run is what they are literally designed to do from the ground up. Mercy was, and still is, not intended to "run out, run back, hide". It's why they gave her ultimate an invuln effect. She was such a high priority target and she absolutely needed to die before ults were spent because having Mercy alive meant she was just going to reset your team wipe. So it promoted this "ultra safe" style of play for Mercy, where Mercy would never expose herself. Thus the enemy team had no choice but to just bear her presence, while the Mercy player had relatively little fun just healing from the backline and charging up the "oh shit" button ultimate. When Mercy exposed herself to position for her ult, 9 out of 10 times she'd die. Hence the invuln.

    This is a very deep and fundamental flaw with Mercy and it's very obvious that it escapes you.
    With GA she absolutely is supposed fly in and out, and if necessary hide. Res or no res. You can’t have played her much because you have no idea how much time is spent hidden behind pillars and walls shooting her beam into the fight.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by salate View Post
    Whenever I play mercy on 3k rating, I get killed like instantly when use valkyre, I guess I'm just bad
    Nah, you just get matched against competent teams that know how to kill a mercy. Or know that she needs to be a priority most of the time.

  9. #49
    I think she is in a good place atm. I really appreciate the mobility Mercy gained throughout all of the changes, and Valk is a much more fun ult than her initial rez was. People should play Mercy a bit more and realize Mercy is not a braindead hero, but requires skill to survive and do her job. No other hero is the priority target of pretty much everyone. People that don't play Mercy don't know what it is like to consistently have to dodge and somehow survive 2,3,4 solo-ults all aimed at you at the same time. People don't know how high the skill cap on her movement is, or how you have to keep healing toxic idiots or I need healing spamming people if you want to stay in your rank.

    Her rez could be removed for all I care. What I don't like is instant rezzing during Valk. It's encouraging me to wait for value again, just like the old ult. I wish Valk was more of a healing/boosting decision than a rez decision. Do I miss tempo rezzing? yes, but I understand why people hate relying on them and rez being such a big part of every match.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Not fun to play against =/= imbalanced.
    "Not fun to play against" is like a fundamental definition of something that is imbalanced. 'Imbalanced' does not exactly mean 'Overpowered', it means it's something that is out of balance one way or the other. They literally changed Mercy because she wasn't fun to play against, so what is your argument?

    You ask for that you’re literally just making an emotional appeal to change the game based on something you just don’t like having to deal with.
    What if I told you that part of the creative and balancing process involves the developer's personal values and their own theory for game design? Telling me that part of my point lays within personal value doesn't mean anything. Every developer applies their own values to their design.

    I can argue that against basically every hero and ability in the game.
    You could. But how many of those arguments would be as strong as the one against Mercy's rez? You don't even grasp the problem, so I doubt you'd make any argument against anything else that holds the same weight as Mercy's rez.

    Importantly though you also have to consider whether it’s fun for the player doing it.
    I don't think anyone thought the old Mercy was very fun lol.

    That is all that was ever needed. Really, it was adding the invulnerability that doubled down on hide and seek clutch ressing, because prior to that it was suicide and therefore preferable to keep everyone up.
    Keep everyone up how? Mercy's ult is powerful when she's using it to reset a team wipe. Overwatch is pretty much all about Ultimate abilities, and when half or more of your team dies to HAMMER DOWN followed by JUSTICE RAINS FROM ABOVE and I'VE GOT YOU IN MY SIGHTS, that's when Mercy's rezz becomes an issue.

    What if she just didn't rez and did something else entirely? What argument do you have against that?

    a clutch Res without the invulnerability regularly didn’t succeed because you didn’t have a healer to back it up afterward.
    Fundamentally false. You were able to at least pull back and defend the point, especially if one or more of you also had ultimates up. Mercy wasn't even that great at team healing, so why would losing Mercy be a big deal to your team's already lacking AoE healing?

    It can be balanced
    It can't.

    With GA she absolutely is supposed fly in and out, and if necessary hide. Res or no res. You can’t have played her much because you have no idea how much time is spent hidden behind pillars and walls shooting her beam into the fight.
    Roaming and ganking like McCree and Reaper is not like taking cover and firing from cover. Again, you're expressing a profound lack of knowledge for some very basic elements. Every character wants to fire from cover and duck in and out from a wall when shooting at enemies. Only some heroes, like McCree or Reaper or Tracer or (the best DPS in the game) Roadhog want to actively roam around. You can't have played the game as much as you claim if you don't grasp this.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    McCree and Reaper ults are built with hiding and surprise. Hell, the whole of Reapers kit is built to facilitate it.
    You never literally intentionally avoided combat as Reaper while waiting for a good ulti.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  12. #52
    Rez is just a really dumb thing to have in a game like overwatch

  13. #53
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    You never literally intentionally avoided combat as Reaper while waiting for a good ulti.
    Really? https://plays.tv/video/59a3810a3ca0d...kill?from=user

    I’ve done that more than once. In fact I did it twice in that match alone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    "Not fun to play against" is like a fundamental definition of something that is imbalanced. 'Imbalanced' does not exactly mean 'Overpowered', it means it's something that is out of balance one way or the other. They literally changed Mercy because she wasn't fun to play against, so what is your argument?



    What if I told you that part of the creative and balancing process involves the developer's personal values and their own theory for game design? Telling me that part of my point lays within personal value doesn't mean anything. Every developer applies their own values to their design.



    You could. But how many of those arguments would be as strong as the one against Mercy's rez? You don't even grasp the problem, so I doubt you'd make any argument against anything else that holds the same weight as Mercy's rez.



    I don't think anyone thought the old Mercy was very fun lol.



    Keep everyone up how? Mercy's ult is powerful when she's using it to reset a team wipe. Overwatch is pretty much all about Ultimate abilities, and when half or more of your team dies to HAMMER DOWN followed by JUSTICE RAINS FROM ABOVE and I'VE GOT YOU IN MY SIGHTS, that's when Mercy's rezz becomes an issue.

    What if she just didn't rez and did something else entirely? What argument do you have against that?



    Fundamentally false. You were able to at least pull back and defend the point, especially if one or more of you also had ultimates up. Mercy wasn't even that great at team healing, so why would losing Mercy be a big deal to your team's already lacking AoE healing?



    It can't.



    Roaming and ganking like McCree and Reaper is not like taking cover and firing from cover. Again, you're expressing a profound lack of knowledge for some very basic elements. Every character wants to fire from cover and duck in and out from a wall when shooting at enemies. Only some heroes, like McCree or Reaper or Tracer or (the best DPS in the game) Roadhog want to actively roam around. You can't have played the game as much as you claim if you don't grasp this.
    I can see why you were complaining about me sticking to facts. In QP Mercy was the 6th most popular pick, ahead of Widowmaker before her rework, that doesn’t strike me as a hero that no one considers fun.

    Link: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...page=3#post-59
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2018-01-07 at 12:18 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Really? https://plays.tv/video/59a3810a3ca0d...kill?from=user

    I’ve done that more than once. In fact I did it twice in that match alone.
    That's just positioning for a good ulti. Not the same thing at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I can see why you were complaining about me sticking to facts. In QP Mercy was the 6th most popular pick, ahead of Widowmaker before her rework, that doesn’t strike me as a hero that no one considers fun.

    Link: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...page=3#post-59
    Is this your way of farting, rolling over and recognizing I beat you? I'll take it.

    Was it good for you too, baby?

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Is this your way of farting, rolling over and recognizing I beat you? I'll take it.

    Was it good for you too, baby?
    Buddy, he is probably right. If you really want discuss something, you should be able to accept you may be wrong.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    Buddy, he is probably right. If you really want discuss something, you should be able to accept you may be wrong.
    Thanks for the really bad commentary, but no. Out of NINE responses he quoted me from, he latched onto the one obvious tongue-in-cheek ribbing part where I joked that "no one ever found Mercy fun". Then they tried to pride themselves on "Sticking to the facts" (a HUGE redflag for someone who is full of shit, it's like the go-to asshole saying. If you need to tell yourself you're 'sticking to the facts', then you're probably insecure) by posting a playlog of Mercy games.

    They deferred the rest of my entire comment and the eight other points to focus on the joke I made while patting themselves on the back for "using the facts".

    Now go away.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Thanks for the really bad commentary, but no. Out of NINE responses he quoted me from, he latched onto the one obvious tongue-in-cheek ribbing part where I joked that "no one ever found Mercy fun". Then they tried to pride themselves on "Sticking to the facts" (a HUGE redflag for someone who is full of shit, it's like the go-to asshole saying. If you need to tell yourself you're 'sticking to the facts', then you're probably insecure) by posting a playlog of Mercy games.

    They deferred the rest of my entire comment and the eight other points to focus on the joke I made while patting themselves on the back for "using the facts".

    Now go away.
    It seems, you think you are much smarter, than you really are.

    Your "facts" are not backed up by anything. And while I agree Mercy need a lot of work, but not because it is too good, but because there is too wide gap between mercy in noob games and in pro games.

    Even your ulti idea is just bad for the game on a very basic level. But whatever man, it is not like any of these ideas will be implemented anyway.

    And btw, rez can be balanced.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    It seems, you think you are much smarter, than you really are.

    Your "facts" are not backed up by anything. And while I agree Mercy need a lot of work, but not because it is too good, but because there is too wide gap between mercy in noob games and in pro games.

    Even your ulti idea is just bad for the game on a very basic level. But whatever man, it is not like any of these ideas will be implemented anyway.

    And btw, rez can be balanced.
    You might want to get a grasp on basic language skills before trying to make an argument. Good luck.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    You might want to get a grasp on basic language skills before trying to make an argument. Good luck.
    Well, standard reaction. Attacking language. Thank you for proving you are not very bright person.

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