Mercy Rezz Rework.

[Jessicka]

Ah, right. I do recall her falling further down tier lists after Ana came out.

At any rate, this has nothing to do with the conversation concerning Mercy's ultimate. I mean, if anything, it only validates my argument because it proves Mercy is badly designed and balanced.

So like I said, present a real argument and drop the bitchy attitude or please stop posting here.

It’s got everything to do with it when you make ridiculous and demonstratively untrue statements about the strength of Res being somehow inately overpowered and completely not balance able. Then accuse me of lying about her being considered a weak hero while having such an ability.

It is clearly possible to balance resurrection, and in S6 it was balanced statiscally.

[therealstegblob]

It’s got everything to do with it when you make ridiculous and demonstratively untrue statements about the strength of Res being somehow inately overpowered and completely not balance able. Then accuse me of lying about her being considered a weak hero while having such an ability.

It is clearly possible to balance resurrection, and in S6 it was balanced statiscally.

I'm sorry, but no, just because the Hero as a package is considered lackluster doesn't mean something they do might not be too powerful.

If you're so caught up on 'hard facts', Blizzard themselves outright admitted to the fact that Resurrection was not a fun mechanic to play against. There's so many issues with it.

It's not fun to play against. It invalidates an entire push/successful team wipe.

It makes Mercy a boring character. She only responds, she doesn't react. She sits in the back waiting for her team to die so she can ult.

It turned her into a massive target, she almost always died when she ulted. That was not fun for the Mercy player. Making her invuln was a weird change, though, and started the whole string of messy, confused reworks.

"Fixing" it just muddles the equation, you start trying to fix one issue but you're only going to make more.

There's so much to argue for removing resurrection and retooling her character and pretty much nothing to argue for keeping resurrection. Why the fuck does she even need it? The game, and the character, would be in a much better spot if you just removed the concept.

[Jessicka]

I think that the new changes they're thinking about sound really good. They've been moving in the right direction with Mercy and the only real problem she has is that her ulti does too many things at once and is excessive. Toning it down makes perfect sense IMO.



She's always been one of the top supports in OW, if not mandatory.

I wouldn't say it's impossible to balance, but it is very difficult.

The bigger problem with the original form of Mercy wasn't so much the balance but rather how it ultimately encouraged players to hide until the team wiped, run in and res, and then go back to hiding.

McCree and Reaper ults are built with hiding and surprise. Hell, the whole of Reapers kit is built to facilitate it.

[therealstegblob]

McCree and Reaper ults are built with hiding and surprise. Hell, the whole of Reapers kit is built to facilitate it.

Comparing Mercy to McCree and Reaper like this is heavily exposing of how naive your concept of design is.

McCree and Reaper are mobile 'ganker'-type characters that are meant to navigate the map and pick off enemies from behind or when they're separated from their team. Hit-and-run is what they are literally designed to do from the ground up. Mercy was, and still is, not intended to "run out, run back, hide". It's why they gave her ultimate an invuln effect. She was such a high priority target and she absolutely needed to die before ults were spent because having Mercy alive meant she was just going to reset your team wipe. So it promoted this "ultra safe" style of play for Mercy, where Mercy would never expose herself. Thus the enemy team had no choice but to just bear her presence, while the Mercy player had relatively little fun just healing from the backline and charging up the "oh shit" button ultimate. When Mercy exposed herself to position for her ult, 9 out of 10 times she'd die. Hence the invuln.

This is a very deep and fundamental flaw with Mercy and it's very obvious that it escapes you.

[Jessicka]

I'm sorry, but no, just because the Hero as a package is considered lackluster doesn't mean something they do might not be too powerful.

If you're so caught up on 'hard facts', Blizzard themselves outright admitted to the fact that Resurrection was not a fun mechanic to play against. There's so many issues with it. Valkyrie on PTR right now is probably the most underwhelming ult in the game.

It's not fun to play against. It invalidates an entire push/successful team wipe.

It makes Mercy a boring character. She only responds, she doesn't react. She sits in the back waiting for her team to die so she can ult.

It turned her into a massive target, she almost always died when she ulted. That was not fun for the Mercy player. Making her invuln was a weird change, though, and started the whole string of messy, confused reworks.

"Fixing" it just muddles the equation, you start trying to fix one issue but you're only going to make more.

There's so much to argue for removing resurrection and retooling her character and pretty much nothing to argue for keeping resurrection. Why the fuck does she even need it? The game, and the character, would be in a much better spot if you just removed the concept.

Not fun to play against =/= imbalanced. You ask for that you’re literally just making an emotional appeal to change the game based on something you just don’t like having to deal with. I can argue that against basically every hero and ability in the game. Importantly though you also have to consider whether it’s fun for the player doing it.

Right from Beta, when Mercy was terrible, players asked for a new ability on E which would keep her in the fight and give her something extra to do to add gameplay. That is all that was ever needed. Really, it was adding the invulnerability that doubled down on hide and seek clutch ressing, because prior to that it was suicide and therefore preferable to keep everyone up. But Blizz liked those clutch resses.

Again, this doesn’t make Res inately overpowered just by existing. It’s fun for the player doing it, and a clutch Res without the invulnerability regularly didn’t succeed because you didn’t have a healer to back it up afterward. It can be balanced, but they need to revisit S5 build and add that something on E. They already broke the “Mercy is a single target healer” argument against a HoT or Chain Heal, so we can go there and give her more to do to keep her in the fight.

- - - Updated - - -

Comparing Mercy to McCree and Reaper like this is heavily exposing of how naive your concept of design is.

McCree and Reaper are mobile 'ganker'-type characters that are meant to navigate the map and pick off enemies from behind or when they're separated from their team. Hit-and-run is what they are literally designed to do from the ground up. Mercy was, and still is, not intended to "run out, run back, hide". It's why they gave her ultimate an invuln effect. She was such a high priority target and she absolutely needed to die before ults were spent because having Mercy alive meant she was just going to reset your team wipe. So it promoted this "ultra safe" style of play for Mercy, where Mercy would never expose herself. Thus the enemy team had no choice but to just bear her presence, while the Mercy player had relatively little fun just healing from the backline and charging up the "oh shit" button ultimate. When Mercy exposed herself to position for her ult, 9 out of 10 times she'd die. Hence the invuln.

This is a very deep and fundamental flaw with Mercy and it's very obvious that it escapes you.

With GA she absolutely is supposed fly in and out, and if necessary hide. Res or no res. You can’t have played her much because you have no idea how much time is spent hidden behind pillars and walls shooting her beam into the fight.

[Ninjavitis]

Whenever I play mercy on 3k rating, I get killed like instantly when use valkyre, I guess I'm just bad

Nah, you just get matched against competent teams that know how to kill a mercy. Or know that she needs to be a priority most of the time.

[Thelxi]

I think she is in a good place atm. I really appreciate the mobility Mercy gained throughout all of the changes, and Valk is a much more fun ult than her initial rez was. People should play Mercy a bit more and realize Mercy is not a braindead hero, but requires skill to survive and do her job. No other hero is the priority target of pretty much everyone. People that don't play Mercy don't know what it is like to consistently have to dodge and somehow survive 2,3,4 solo-ults all aimed at you at the same time. People don't know how high the skill cap on her movement is, or how you have to keep healing toxic idiots or I need healing spamming people if you want to stay in your rank.

Her rez could be removed for all I care. What I don't like is instant rezzing during Valk. It's encouraging me to wait for value again, just like the old ult. I wish Valk was more of a healing/boosting decision than a rez decision. Do I miss tempo rezzing? yes, but I understand why people hate relying on them and rez being such a big part of every match.

[therealstegblob]

Not fun to play against =/= imbalanced.

"Not fun to play against" is like a fundamental definition of something that is imbalanced. 'Imbalanced' does not exactly mean 'Overpowered', it means it's something that is out of balance one way or the other. They literally changed Mercy because she wasn't fun to play against, so what is your argument?

You ask for that you’re literally just making an emotional appeal to change the game based on something you just don’t like having to deal with.

What if I told you that part of the creative and balancing process involves the developer's personal values and their own theory for game design? Telling me that part of my point lays within personal value doesn't mean anything. Every developer applies their own values to their design.

I can argue that against basically every hero and ability in the game.

You could. But how many of those arguments would be as strong as the one against Mercy's rez? You don't even grasp the problem, so I doubt you'd make any argument against anything else that holds the same weight as Mercy's rez.

Importantly though you also have to consider whether it’s fun for the player doing it.

I don't think anyone thought the old Mercy was very fun lol.

That is all that was ever needed. Really, it was adding the invulnerability that doubled down on hide and seek clutch ressing, because prior to that it was suicide and therefore preferable to keep everyone up.

Keep everyone up how? Mercy's ult is powerful when she's using it to reset a team wipe. Overwatch is pretty much all about Ultimate abilities, and when half or more of your team dies to HAMMER DOWN followed by JUSTICE RAINS FROM ABOVE and I'VE GOT YOU IN MY SIGHTS, that's when Mercy's rezz becomes an issue.

What if she just didn't rez and did something else entirely? What argument do you have against that?

a clutch Res without the invulnerability regularly didn’t succeed because you didn’t have a healer to back it up afterward.

Fundamentally false. You were able to at least pull back and defend the point, especially if one or more of you also had ultimates up. Mercy wasn't even that great at team healing, so why would losing Mercy be a big deal to your team's already lacking AoE healing?

It can be balanced

It can't.

With GA she absolutely is supposed fly in and out, and if necessary hide. Res or no res. You can’t have played her much because you have no idea how much time is spent hidden behind pillars and walls shooting her beam into the fight.

Roaming and ganking like McCree and Reaper is not like taking cover and firing from cover. Again, you're expressing a profound lack of knowledge for some very basic elements. Every character wants to fire from cover and duck in and out from a wall when shooting at enemies. Only some heroes, like McCree or Reaper or Tracer or (the best DPS in the game) Roadhog want to actively roam around. You can't have played the game as much as you claim if you don't grasp this.

[Mormolyce]

McCree and Reaper ults are built with hiding and surprise. Hell, the whole of Reapers kit is built to facilitate it.

You never literally intentionally avoided combat as Reaper while waiting for a good ulti.

[jstnw89]

Rez is just a really dumb thing to have in a game like overwatch

[Jessicka]

You never literally intentionally avoided combat as Reaper while waiting for a good ulti.

Really? https://plays.tv/video/59a3810a3ca0d...kill?from=user

I’ve done that more than once. In fact I did it twice in that match alone.

- - - Updated - - -

"Not fun to play against" is like a fundamental definition of something that is imbalanced. 'Imbalanced' does not exactly mean 'Overpowered', it means it's something that is out of balance one way or the other. They literally changed Mercy because she wasn't fun to play against, so what is your argument?



What if I told you that part of the creative and balancing process involves the developer's personal values and their own theory for game design? Telling me that part of my point lays within personal value doesn't mean anything. Every developer applies their own values to their design.



You could. But how many of those arguments would be as strong as the one against Mercy's rez? You don't even grasp the problem, so I doubt you'd make any argument against anything else that holds the same weight as Mercy's rez.



I don't think anyone thought the old Mercy was very fun lol.



Keep everyone up how? Mercy's ult is powerful when she's using it to reset a team wipe. Overwatch is pretty much all about Ultimate abilities, and when half or more of your team dies to HAMMER DOWN followed by JUSTICE RAINS FROM ABOVE and I'VE GOT YOU IN MY SIGHTS, that's when Mercy's rezz becomes an issue.

What if she just didn't rez and did something else entirely? What argument do you have against that?



Fundamentally false. You were able to at least pull back and defend the point, especially if one or more of you also had ultimates up. Mercy wasn't even that great at team healing, so why would losing Mercy be a big deal to your team's already lacking AoE healing?



It can't.



Roaming and ganking like McCree and Reaper is not like taking cover and firing from cover. Again, you're expressing a profound lack of knowledge for some very basic elements. Every character wants to fire from cover and duck in and out from a wall when shooting at enemies. Only some heroes, like McCree or Reaper or Tracer or (the best DPS in the game) Roadhog want to actively roam around. You can't have played the game as much as you claim if you don't grasp this.

I can see why you were complaining about me sticking to facts. In QP Mercy was the 6th most popular pick, ahead of Widowmaker before her rework, that doesn’t strike me as a hero that no one considers fun.

Link: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...page=3#post-59

[Mormolyce]

Really? https://plays.tv/video/59a3810a3ca0d...kill?from=user

I’ve done that more than once. In fact I did it twice in that match alone.

That's just positioning for a good ulti. Not the same thing at all.

[therealstegblob]

I can see why you were complaining about me sticking to facts. In QP Mercy was the 6th most popular pick, ahead of Widowmaker before her rework, that doesn’t strike me as a hero that no one considers fun.

Link: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...page=3#post-59

Is this your way of farting, rolling over and recognizing I beat you? I'll take it.

Was it good for you too, baby?

[ManiaCCC]

Is this your way of farting, rolling over and recognizing I beat you? I'll take it.

Was it good for you too, baby?

Buddy, he is probably right. If you really want discuss something, you should be able to accept you may be wrong.

[therealstegblob]

Buddy, he is probably right. If you really want discuss something, you should be able to accept you may be wrong.

Thanks for the really bad commentary, but no. Out of NINE responses he quoted me from, he latched onto the one obvious tongue-in-cheek ribbing part where I joked that "no one ever found Mercy fun". Then they tried to pride themselves on "Sticking to the facts" (a HUGE redflag for someone who is full of shit, it's like the go-to asshole saying. If you need to tell yourself you're 'sticking to the facts', then you're probably insecure) by posting a playlog of Mercy games.

They deferred the rest of my entire comment and the eight other points to focus on the joke I made while patting themselves on the back for "using the facts".

Now go away.

[ManiaCCC]

Thanks for the really bad commentary, but no. Out of NINE responses he quoted me from, he latched onto the one obvious tongue-in-cheek ribbing part where I joked that "no one ever found Mercy fun". Then they tried to pride themselves on "Sticking to the facts" (a HUGE redflag for someone who is full of shit, it's like the go-to asshole saying. If you need to tell yourself you're 'sticking to the facts', then you're probably insecure) by posting a playlog of Mercy games.

They deferred the rest of my entire comment and the eight other points to focus on the joke I made while patting themselves on the back for "using the facts".

Now go away.

It seems, you think you are much smarter, than you really are.

Your "facts" are not backed up by anything. And while I agree Mercy need a lot of work, but not because it is too good, but because there is too wide gap between mercy in noob games and in pro games.

Even your ulti idea is just bad for the game on a very basic level. But whatever man, it is not like any of these ideas will be implemented anyway.

And btw, rez can be balanced.

[therealstegblob]

It seems, you think you are much smarter, than you really are.

Your "facts" are not backed up by anything. And while I agree Mercy need a lot of work, but not because it is too good, but because there is too wide gap between mercy in noob games and in pro games.

Even your ulti idea is just bad for the game on a very basic level. But whatever man, it is not like any of these ideas will be implemented anyway.

And btw, rez can be balanced.

You might want to get a grasp on basic language skills before trying to make an argument. Good luck.

[ManiaCCC]

You might want to get a grasp on basic language skills before trying to make an argument. Good luck.

Well, standard reaction. Attacking language. Thank you for proving you are not very bright person.

[therealstegblob]

Well, standard reaction. Attacking language. Thank you for proving you are not very bright person.

Ah, but your attacks on me were any better. Gotcha, tits.

[Jessicka]

I was using my phone, just went for the key point rather than dissect this mess in totality. I'll go other other points you're making that are wrong; not that I should need to because your whole premise is built purely on the basis of "Remove Res because I don't like it", followed by just making stuff up and claiming 'facts' with no basis and twisting opinions to present them as such.

"Not fun to play against" is like a fundamental definition of something that is imbalanced. 'Imbalanced' does not exactly mean 'Overpowered', it means it's something that is out of balance one way or the other. They literally changed Mercy because she wasn't fun to play against, so what is your argument?

No, "not fun to play against" is nothing to do with balance. It's when something feels bad to play against, it's subjective, but things like Roadhog Hook pulling you through walls (there's some classic gifs where Tracer recalled back through Symm Teleporters and him hooking her back from spawn room). That goes beyond just "unfun to play against", that was a fundamental problem, especially for an esport that wants to present itself on TV. It actually wasn't fun for Roadhogs either, because that particular build wasn't always favourable either. The ability was straight up broken.

'Imbalance' would be conferring an advantage or disadvantage to the team by way of creating a net power gap. Mercy's kit has had Res since Beta, up until Season 6, it wasn't even considered a strong or even 'annoying to play against' ability, since mass res would usually be suicidal and fail as a result. She was a weak hero. While adding invulnerability fixed her balance issues, to make her desirable (but still only Tier 4) it did make Mass Res more successful significantly more often, which I completely agree was annoying.

I made this very long and popular thread, here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...4977248#post-1 discussing exactly that. It felt imbalanced, but it could and was played around too easily at higher levels which is what kept her down. It was too much an eggs in one basket approach.

At no point even there, did I suggest Res be removed however.

What if I told you that part of the creative and balancing process involves the developer's personal values and their own theory for game design? Telling me that part of my point lays within personal value doesn't mean anything. Every developer applies their own values to their design.

You don't need to tell me, I said already; invulnerability was not what Blizzard should have given Mercy, but Blizzard liked the clutch Mass Resses and doubled down accordingly by giving her that.

That opinion and value was fundamentally not what the game needed.

You could. But how many of those arguments would be as strong as the one against Mercy's rez? You don't even grasp the problem, so I doubt you'd make any argument against anything else that holds the same weight as Mercy's rez.

I don't see any strength in the argument to remove it; it's been demonstrated to be able to be balanced already, there's no reason to therefore remove such an iconic ability from such a popular hero.

I don't think anyone thought the old Mercy was very fun lol.

Keep everyone up how? Mercy's ult is powerful when she's using it to reset a team wipe. Overwatch is pretty much all about Ultimate abilities, and when half or more of your team dies to HAMMER DOWN followed by JUSTICE RAINS FROM ABOVE and I'VE GOT YOU IN MY SIGHTS, that's when Mercy's rezz becomes an issue.

By not hiding and actively paying much more attention to healing and boosting to make sure players won their duels.

What if she just didn't rez and did something else entirely? What argument do you have against that?

It's an iconic ability, she's a popular hero. Fundamental redesigns only serve to alienate more people than they do salve their complaints about those heroes. There's simply no reason to, it's never been such a huge problem before, even with S6 Mass Res, there's no reason it should continue to be if the rest of her kit is accordingly balanced.

Fundamentally false. You were able to at least pull back and defend the point, especially if one or more of you also had ultimates up. Mercy wasn't even that great at team healing, so why would losing Mercy be a big deal to your team's already lacking AoE healing?

Only if it was a <4 man res and you had someone else to GA back to. 5x Res you never had that capacity, because everyone was dead and too close anyway. 4x or fewer Res were never complained about.

It can't.

Already has been, you're wrong.

Roaming and ganking like McCree and Reaper is not like taking cover and firing from cover. Again, you're expressing a profound lack of knowledge for some very basic elements. Every character wants to fire from cover and duck in and out from a wall when shooting at enemies. Only some heroes, like McCree or Reaper or Tracer or (the best DPS in the game) Roadhog want to actively roam around. You can't have played the game as much as you claim if you don't grasp this.

Already posted a video of me hiding and 5x killing with Reaper. Is a regular thing, see McCrees do it all the time. Argue 'positioning yourself' all you want, it's no different to Mercy positioning herself to swoop back in for the mass res.