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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    Well, standard reaction. Attacking language. Thank you for proving you are not very bright person.
    Ah, but your attacks on me were any better. Gotcha, tits.

  2. #62
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    I was using my phone, just went for the key point rather than dissect this mess in totality. I'll go other other points you're making that are wrong; not that I should need to because your whole premise is built purely on the basis of "Remove Res because I don't like it", followed by just making stuff up and claiming 'facts' with no basis and twisting opinions to present them as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    "Not fun to play against" is like a fundamental definition of something that is imbalanced. 'Imbalanced' does not exactly mean 'Overpowered', it means it's something that is out of balance one way or the other. They literally changed Mercy because she wasn't fun to play against, so what is your argument?
    No, "not fun to play against" is nothing to do with balance. It's when something feels bad to play against, it's subjective, but things like Roadhog Hook pulling you through walls (there's some classic gifs where Tracer recalled back through Symm Teleporters and him hooking her back from spawn room). That goes beyond just "unfun to play against", that was a fundamental problem, especially for an esport that wants to present itself on TV. It actually wasn't fun for Roadhogs either, because that particular build wasn't always favourable either. The ability was straight up broken.

    'Imbalance' would be conferring an advantage or disadvantage to the team by way of creating a net power gap. Mercy's kit has had Res since Beta, up until Season 6, it wasn't even considered a strong or even 'annoying to play against' ability, since mass res would usually be suicidal and fail as a result. She was a weak hero. While adding invulnerability fixed her balance issues, to make her desirable (but still only Tier 4) it did make Mass Res more successful significantly more often, which I completely agree was annoying.

    I made this very long and popular thread, here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...4977248#post-1 discussing exactly that. It felt imbalanced, but it could and was played around too easily at higher levels which is what kept her down. It was too much an eggs in one basket approach.

    At no point even there, did I suggest Res be removed however.

    What if I told you that part of the creative and balancing process involves the developer's personal values and their own theory for game design? Telling me that part of my point lays within personal value doesn't mean anything. Every developer applies their own values to their design.
    You don't need to tell me, I said already; invulnerability was not what Blizzard should have given Mercy, but Blizzard liked the clutch Mass Resses and doubled down accordingly by giving her that.

    That opinion and value was fundamentally not what the game needed.

    You could. But how many of those arguments would be as strong as the one against Mercy's rez? You don't even grasp the problem, so I doubt you'd make any argument against anything else that holds the same weight as Mercy's rez.
    I don't see any strength in the argument to remove it; it's been demonstrated to be able to be balanced already, there's no reason to therefore remove such an iconic ability from such a popular hero.

    I don't think anyone thought the old Mercy was very fun lol.

    Keep everyone up how? Mercy's ult is powerful when she's using it to reset a team wipe. Overwatch is pretty much all about Ultimate abilities, and when half or more of your team dies to HAMMER DOWN followed by JUSTICE RAINS FROM ABOVE and I'VE GOT YOU IN MY SIGHTS, that's when Mercy's rezz becomes an issue.
    By not hiding and actively paying much more attention to healing and boosting to make sure players won their duels.

    What if she just didn't rez and did something else entirely? What argument do you have against that?
    It's an iconic ability, she's a popular hero. Fundamental redesigns only serve to alienate more people than they do salve their complaints about those heroes. There's simply no reason to, it's never been such a huge problem before, even with S6 Mass Res, there's no reason it should continue to be if the rest of her kit is accordingly balanced.

    Fundamentally false. You were able to at least pull back and defend the point, especially if one or more of you also had ultimates up. Mercy wasn't even that great at team healing, so why would losing Mercy be a big deal to your team's already lacking AoE healing?
    Only if it was a <4 man res and you had someone else to GA back to. 5x Res you never had that capacity, because everyone was dead and too close anyway. 4x or fewer Res were never complained about.

    It can't.
    Already has been, you're wrong.

    Roaming and ganking like McCree and Reaper is not like taking cover and firing from cover. Again, you're expressing a profound lack of knowledge for some very basic elements. Every character wants to fire from cover and duck in and out from a wall when shooting at enemies. Only some heroes, like McCree or Reaper or Tracer or (the best DPS in the game) Roadhog want to actively roam around. You can't have played the game as much as you claim if you don't grasp this.
    Already posted a video of me hiding and 5x killing with Reaper. Is a regular thing, see McCrees do it all the time. Argue 'positioning yourself' all you want, it's no different to Mercy positioning herself to swoop back in for the mass res.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2018-01-07 at 03:55 PM.

  3. #63
    No, "not fun to play against" is nothing to do with balance. It's when something feels bad to play against, it's subjective, but things like Roadhog Hook pulling you through walls (there's some classic gifs where Tracer recalled back through Symm Teleporters and him hooking her back from spawn room). That goes beyond just "unfun to play against", that was a fundamental problem, especially for an esport that wants to present itself on TV. It actually wasn't fun for Roadhogs either, because that particular build wasn't always favourable either. The ability was straight up broken.

    'Imbalance' would be conferring an advantage or disadvantage to the team by way of creating a net power gap. Mercy's kit has had Res since Beta, up until Season 6, it wasn't even considered a strong or even 'annoying to play against' ability, since mass res would usually be suicidal and fail as a result. She was a weak hero. While adding invulnerability fixed her balance issues, to make her desirable (but still only Tier 4) it did make Mass Res more successful significantly more often, which I completely agree was annoying.

    I made this very long and popular thread, here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...4977248#post-1 discussing exactly that. It felt imbalanced, but it could and was played around too easily at higher levels which is what kept her down. It was too much an eggs in one basket approach.

    At no point even there, did I suggest Res be removed however.
    Literally this entire chunk of text just sort of validates everything I've been arguing. Her rezz isn't in a good spot, was never in a good spot and will (probably) never be in a good spot. Thanks for agreeing with me.

    You don't need to tell me, I said already; invulnerability was not what Blizzard should have given Mercy, but Blizzard liked the clutch Mass Resses and doubled down accordingly by giving her that.

    That opinion and value was fundamentally not what the game needed.
    And I fundamentally disagree. Or rather, I disagree with what you think Mercy should be/have alternative to her current kit. She just shouldn't have a rezz. You go on and on and on about how you post "facts", but most of what you argue is purely your own opinion. The only facts you've presented are just pickrates lol.

    I don't see any strength in the argument to remove it; it's been demonstrated to be able to be balanced already, there's no reason to therefore remove such an iconic ability from such a popular hero.
    You keep jumping back and forth. One second you're telling me Rezz was shit and sucked, the next it's now fittingly "annoying to play against" because she invulns. Yet you're not even addressing the real issue that Kaplan changed Mercy's ult for, which was primarily because people were intentionally dying in order to benefit from the fullheal effect of it, which Blizzard did not like. So Blizzard themselves disagrees with you that Mercy's ult was fine once they made the invuln change.

    By not hiding and actively paying much more attention to healing and boosting to make sure players won their duels.
    You don't even know what you're trying to argue anymore. Mercy exposing herself gets Mercy killed. That was the other core issue with the hero. So you sit back and heal from the back lines. No Mercy wants to be dead when her team gets wiped.

    Only if it was a <4 man res and you had someone else to GA back to. 5x Res you never had that capacity, because everyone was dead and too close anyway. 4x or fewer Res were never complained about.
    More of those "hard facts" of yours, huh?

    Already has been, you're wrong.
    Again, I cite that your argument is so confused and ignorant that you are actively going back and forth, saying her ult was bad and then saying her ult was "annoying". You just kind of change your rhetoric to suit your counter argument against each individual point I make.

    At this point I think it's safe to assume you don't know what you're talking about.

  4. #64
    Roadhog got fucked with a whole lot more than he should have just because people whined about him being unfun to play against too, lmao, he wasn't some super huge problem statistically either, janky hooks aside.

  5. #65
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Again, I cite that your argument is so confused and ignorant that you are actively going back and forth, saying her ult was bad and then saying her ult was "annoying". You just kind of change your rhetoric to suit your counter argument against each individual point I make.

    At this point I think it's safe to assume you don't know what you're talking about.
    No, I can just accept that some shit like Scatter, or Deflect, or Hook, can be really annoying to play against. Doesn't mean I think there's any reason to remove them, because they do what they do and they're not inherently imbalanced and can be played around.

    You think 'annoying to play against' is inherently a reason to remove it. I just disagree.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    No, I can just accept that some shit like Scatter, or Deflect, or Hook, can be really annoying to play against. Doesn't mean I think there's any reason to remove them, because they do what they do and they're not inherently imbalanced and can be played around.
    But you can't apply the argument of "One Mercy ult undid the work of three ults" to any of those things. You're comparing incomparable things. Again. Most of your arguments have attempted to hinge on comparing two things that are fundamentally different.

    You little cutie.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Woobels View Post
    Roadhog got fucked with a whole lot more than he should have just because people whined about him being unfun to play against too, lmao, he wasn't some super huge problem statistically either, janky hooks aside.
    The problem with Roadhog was that he replaced DPS as the best roaming hero because he had DPS-tier damage, huge health, could 1v1 a lot of other heroes dependably and has one of the most powerful abilities in the entire game (his hook).

  7. #67
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    But you can't apply the argument of "One Mercy ult undid the work of three ults" to any of those things. You're comparing incomparable things. Again. Most of your arguments have attempted to hinge on comparing two things that are fundamentally different.

    You little cutie.
    Literally basic abilities like barriers and DM can negate stacked ults as well. Tranq and Sound Barrier go a long way to negating them too.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Literally basic abilities like barriers and DM can negate stacked ults as well. Tranq and Sound Barrier go a long way to negating them too.
    Yeah, but as I already explained very long ago, the difference between all of those abilities and Mercy ult is that Mercy rez is responsive instead of reactive.

    Reinhardt thinks the enemy Reinhardt is going to Earthshatter? He reacts with his barrier.

    Zenyatta thinks the enemies are going to pop all their ults? He reacts by popping his ultimate.

    Lucio thinks the enemies are making a committed push? He pops his ult.

    Reaper thinks he's about to get targeted and gibbed? He uses his invuln.

    Mercy, on the other hand?

    Three people die. Mercy responds with her rez.

    Do you understand the deep and fundamental difference that ruins your attempt at comparing two incomparable things?

    You've put up a decent fight, but maybe you should admit I'm right, eh?

  9. #69
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Yeah, but as I already explained very long ago, the difference between all of those abilities and Mercy ult is that Mercy rez is responsive instead of reactive.

    Reinhardt thinks the enemy Reinhardt is going to Earthshatter? He reacts with his barrier.

    Zenyatta thinks the enemies are going to pop all their ults? He reacts by popping his ultimate.

    Lucio thinks the enemies are making a committed push? He pops his ult.

    Reaper thinks he's about to get targeted and gibbed? He uses his invuln.

    Mercy, on the other hand?

    Three people die. Mercy responds with her rez.

    Do you understand the deep and fundamental difference that ruins your attempt at comparing two incomparable things?

    You've put up a decent fight, but maybe you should admit I'm right, eh?
    Not really, because you're complaining Mercys anticipating these things are "hiding".

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Not really, because you're complaining Mercys anticipating these things are "hiding".
    Literally fucking what lol.

  11. #71
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    Rez is inherently bad in a game where you need to capitalize on and punish mistakes......it's a get out of jail for free card and it's dumb af.

    Made by dubbelbasse

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Woobels View Post
    Roadhog got fucked with a whole lot more than he should have just because people whined about him being unfun to play against too, lmao, he wasn't some super huge problem statistically either, janky hooks aside.
    Honestly, I don't remember him being that bad to play against. I mean, what was so off about him before all his nerfs. A hook and chain pulling someone around a corner? Yea, that's totally unrealistic and not how those 2 items work at all! Maybe his damage was a little over the top before, but that's all I can remember.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Not really, because you're complaining Mercys anticipating these things are "hiding".
    Don't know why you're trying. You've proven him wrong, I've proven him wrong...hell, the game itself proves him wrong. The only thing on his side are the players who have no idea what to do against Mercy.
    I just started ignoring him, you might as well too.
    Just to sum up: he makes a statement. You prove it wrong, he counters with something he thinks is clever, you prove that wrong, he picks something in your sentence to nitpick to try and show he's right about something, and you keep going back and forth.

  14. #74
    I guess you guys are fine with mercy being a must pick.

    Other people are not. Live with it. That is why she is being nerfed into the ground.

  15. #75
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    I guess you guys are fine with mercy being a must pick.

    Other people are not. Live with it. That is why she is being nerfed into the ground.
    You're arguing for the total removal of resurrection from the game, that's what I'm against. I'd prefer to see her reverted to S5 (which was weak) with a new ability on E to bring her up to speed and encourage her to try to stay in fights.

    I don't honestly feel like she's truly a must pick either, I've won plenty of matches with other healers against comps with Mercy.

  16. #76
    Res is never balanced too strong in beta (huge range), too weak on release (die trying), too strong after buffs (invuln when resing), WAY to strong after rework (too many res's), and now it's in the dumpster, unless someone somehow died on the back line you're not resing anyone.


    Just ditch it, it'll never find that sweet spot and mercy would be a better character overall without it.

    But op... that doesn't mean your idea isn't just silly as well.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    You're arguing for the total removal of resurrection from the game, that's what I'm against. I'd prefer to see her reverted to S5 (which was weak) with a new ability on E to bring her up to speed and encourage her to try to stay in fights.

    I don't honestly feel like she's truly a must pick either, I've won plenty of matches with other healers against comps with Mercy.
    I want res gone in large part because I love Mercy's lore, her look and her feel, but I want more interesting gameplay for her. Her boost and heal are so braindead compared to other heroes.

    Even if you have managed to win a handful of matches it doesn't change that her being in a teamfight = 8v6 if the enemy team has no mercy.

  18. #78
    So they are finally separating valk from from rez! no extra charge and no instant cast during valk. I am all for this. As I've said before I want valk to be a teamfighting ult and not a "wait for 1-2 people to die" ult.

    They are also nerfing GA speed by 50% during valk which is a bad call imo. Even if the lower elos find her immortal during valk (?), 50% is too big a blow. Fine tune that shit Blizzard, start with a ~20% nerf and take it from there.

    What is funny is that if you go through my Mercy posts on these forums you will see that pretty much everything I have suggested and talked about has literally happened. I usually am at odds with Blizzard but I have fully understood their tackling of Mercy in OW. It can't be easy and I can see and appreciate how respectful they have tried to be of Mercy despite the overwhelming community pressure.

    Idk if a responsible dev lurks these forums or if I finally found some common ground with blizz devs, but if you are reading this kudos and keep it up! and leave her mobility alone!

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    So they are finally separating valk from from rez! no extra charge and no instant cast during valk. I am all for this. As I've said before I want valk to be a teamfighting ult and not a "wait for 1-2 people to die" ult.

    They are also nerfing GA speed by 50% during valk which is a bad call imo. Even if the lower elos find her immortal during valk (?), 50% is too big a blow. Fine tune that shit Blizzard, start with a ~20% nerf and take it from there.

    What is funny is that if you go through my Mercy posts on these forums you will see that pretty much everything I have suggested and talked about has literally happened. I usually am at odds with Blizzard but I have fully understood their tackling of Mercy in OW. It can't be easy and I can see and appreciate how respectful they have tried to be of Mercy despite the overwhelming community pressure.

    Idk if a responsible dev lurks these forums or if I finally found some common ground with blizz devs, but if you are reading this kudos and keep it up! and leave her mobility alone!
    As a Mercy main I have felt all the Mercy changes this far have been good and warranted (even the resurrect casting time), but now with these newest changes I think maybe they should just remove resurrect altogether and give her some new E ability if resurrect is such a nightmare to balance and just needs to be constantly nerfed and nerfed.

  20. #80
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Well looks like with these changes Mercy's pick and win rates have gone off a cliff and under a bus. "Successful rework" my ass.

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