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  1. #21
    The real reason people care that much about global dps or hps is it's a very simple metric that everyone can read. And if you're on top it shows how big your penis is!

    I love to link damage to priority targets or avoidable damage received after some asshole brags about his awesome boss tunneling

  2. #22
    I am Murloc! Sting's Avatar
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    Don't bring melee and you're fine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The fun factor would go up 1000x if WQs existed in vanilla

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by caractacus View Post
    I've been a casual wow player for a long time now and usually play tank or healer (have dabbled in a bit of dps) But I've never really fully understood why people put so much emphasis on the amount of dps they can put out. I remember the days when OOM used to a be problem so the quicker you kill a boss the less this was an issue but it's doens't seem to be a problem nowadays. I also understand there are some elements to a boss fight where you have to dps something down within a certain time or basically it's a wipe so I can see the need there. I just struggle in any other way to see why dps is so important. If it takes 10 minutes or 11 minutes to kill a boss what difference does it make?
    Killing stuff faster = Less time to fuck up on any mechanics.

    Higher Dps just makes everything easier, it's as simple as that.


    This is even more noticeable if you're progressing on Mythic bosses. Sure, the most important thing is obviously to do the mechanics properly, but you will have a much higher chance of avoiding random deaths if the boss dies in 6 minutes, compared to 9 minutes.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Targom View Post
    I don't really see why 3 tanking is considered a strat for this fight. Asara can be tanked by a dps who knows not to stand near the other active mob so your only gain is in the phase where Noura and Diima are up at the same time. Though I suppose as a pug it's a lot easier to dump a low dps and pick up a tank to replace it and not lose as much dps.
    Mainly because melee prefer to sit on Asara and DPS (don't have to mind the saber or cone from the fiery boss), and that means the designated "tank" will likely lose aggro to random melee.
    It's also a boss that has next to no DPS requirement, so you can go at it with some silly comps and still come out way ahead - 2-6-14 is for example perfectly fine for a 22 man, because as long as you're not getting 1 shot by norgannon adds or golganneth lightning, healers *can* save you from doing a mistake, or getting chaught in the storm etc, as long as there's enough of them to pick up the slack. That being said, obviously a standard 2-4-14 will be just fine; just need all healers to have debuffs shown - but having 2 healers for each debuff almost guarantees you won't get stunned and chaught in a bad spot.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Mainly because melee prefer to sit on Asara and DPS (don't have to mind the saber or cone from the fiery boss), and that means the designated "tank" will likely lose aggro to random melee.
    What? Just use 2 tanks with 1 tank on each boss and have them taunt swap for fire stacks, and maybe frost stacks if you don't have a pally to freedom the slow off.

  6. #26
    Doing Coven in PUgs since week 1

    1st: announce add-type and what to do in /rw and/or /y, preferably with a timer---> e.g. /rw Caster-adds in 30s,bloodlust, kill add on skull marker first, then move clockwise. or /rw fire-adds next, get out of middle
    2nd: remind melees not to be on noura(returning whirling sabre is evil)
    3rd: have ranges/heals be near the corners of the room, that's where I found the most safe-spots usually appear.
    4th: have a tank dk(massgrip) or multiple druids(spec doesn't matter, massroots does), assign sides for them to cc.
    5th: more ppl make the fight easier(only the golganneth adds become harder, but still enough space to spread), 2-4-14 or even 2-5-14 if needed is reasonable.
    6th: make ppl who have it use prydaz on progress

    it's not hard tbh...been oneshotting coven on 3 toons the last 2 weeks.

  7. #27
    Parses of pug kills would be helpful, as the DPS my 9/11M guild cranks out is clearly gonna be above what I can pull out of LFG.

    DPS is crucial on any add fight as it leads to (figuratively) exponential gains in boss time to die. Simple math, if a raid puts out 1 dps a second and is fighting a boss with 600 health and every minute an add with 30 health spawns, the raid makes 30 damage of progress each minute for a kill after twenty minutes. If you up that DPS to 1.25 the boss damage is now 45 per minute, an increase of 50% because both DPS in general and uptime on the boss have gone up, for a kill at roughly 13 minutes 20 seconds. That's a 33% reduction in fight time for a 25% increase in DPS.

    I think tonight I will limit the number of melee I bring because I don't believe there are any interrupts in heroic (I didn't see any in Dungeon Journal, it's only in mythic, right) which might help. I could also maybe tell people they can park on boss during khaz'goroth adds as the multi-dotters slowly melt them more efficiently.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Zylos View Post
    What? Just use 2 tanks with 1 tank on each boss and have them taunt swap for fire stacks, and maybe frost stacks if you don't have a pally to freedom the slow off.
    Or just have the dps hit her only, so you gain 100% dps uptime. Any and all reasons to have a tank taunt her is freaking stupid. Even more as tanks always manages to taunt mid storm cast = 8 sec of 0dps.

    Theres absolutely no reason to have a tank on her and is same reason you do on mythic. Shorter fight= less deaths
    These day's Im washed, playing VRchat instead.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    It's tricky to judge DPS because a lot of people open super strong and fall off. Meanwhile in my run a shadow priest started at #10 and was #3 by the end of the pull. Interpreting the meters is a little challenging for a PUG RL as well because when people die at random points it's hard to compare apples to apples.
    DPS could be pretty unreliable as an indicator, as you've pointed out with the spriest. I play afflock and use the execute talent so I'll look a lot better on a kill than on a wipe at 12%. I'll finish 1st or 2nd after being middle of the pack at around 50% boss health.

    But anyway, aside from the random bad luck of overlapping mechanics, in my experience, the problem with this fight is that ppl die to shit they shouldn't die to. The wipes I've been a part of have been because of either bad luck overlaps, which you can't control, or too many people down to stuff they did not avoid or a healing shortage because healers are having to bail out other people who didn't avoid stuff. If I was running a group, I would look at the damage taken (and the resulting deaths) to see who is having a problem. IMO, other than the bad luck thing, ranged should not die on this fight unless it's already on a wipe trajectory.

    And like I think you already mentioned, the more (equivalently geared/skilled) spriests and afflocks you have, the easier this fight is. You don't just benefit from the final DPS, but the controlled nature in which it can be applied.

  10. #30
    Warchief vsb's Avatar
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    It's a hard boss for pugs. I pugged it a lot myself.

    1. It's very punishing to fails. A lot of things will kill you for mistake. New people are likely to fail a lot until they learn tactics. So requiring achievement is good prerequisite, though it doesn't guarantee anything.

    2. It requires awesome healers to heal debuff. They must be good and react quickly enough, they must be geared to heal through it, they must dodge things at the same time. I think that you should select 960+ healers for this fight and replace failers. I'm not sure about classes, but holy paladins are good, some aoe healing required as well.

    3. It requires proper tactics. I suggest running with 3 tanks, especially important blood DK. They'll be able to switch without dragging bosses around which simplifies fight for everyone and slight increases DPS. Plan for Norgannon, he usually wipes raid. Druids, blood DK are your main friends, but almost any class can do something useful.

    4. DPS is not that important IMO. If people don't fail, there are no strict timers. 950+ should be enough.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by caractacus View Post
    I've been a casual wow player for a long time now and usually play tank or healer (have dabbled in a bit of dps) But I've never really fully understood why people put so much emphasis on the amount of dps they can put out. I remember the days when OOM used to a be problem so the quicker you kill a boss the less this was an issue but it's doens't seem to be a problem nowadays. I also understand there are some elements to a boss fight where you have to dps something down within a certain time or basically it's a wipe so I can see the need there. I just struggle in any other way to see why dps is so important. If it takes 10 minutes or 11 minutes to kill a boss what difference does it make?
    higher dps players make encounters shorter often bringing to the table to skip entire mechanics, always reducing the time an encounter takes and the chances that players will screw up.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by garicasha View Post
    The most reasonable expectations I've come up with so far are:
    --A voice chat
    --After the first set of adds is complete, everyone needs to be north of 1.2M DPS.
    At least one DK. At least one mass entanglement. Done. The worst combination from my experience is removed from the table
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    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  13. #33
    Got em tonight. Not a trivial task, by the end of it 1/3 of the pug parsed top 75% dps, 1/3 top 50-75, and 1/3 less than 50. Counting the three tanks as one DPS it was ~1.4M DPS per person to chalk up a 7:45 kill going 3/6/15.

    Unfortunately people's parse rankings are way higher on kills than wipes so it's tough to look at a live log and estimate what the problem is.
    Last edited by garicasha; 2018-01-11 at 10:27 AM.

  14. #34
    Always oneshot them my with 9 alts per week.

    Open a group 965+, check curve.

    Very easy.

  15. #35
    Deleted
    I don't get the third tank. I never three tanked it, and there is no point in the fight, where a third tank makes anything easier. I get that you don't have the pact after taunting, but the DPS gain from that is really small. Pact has an uptime between 5% and 7% in my kills. Tank DPS is around 50% of a DPS. Until 10 DPS this is a loss in RaidDPS, above 11 DPS this is a small gain if we ignore the Pact times during adds.

    But finding a third tank in a pug for only one boss is always a struggle. And all this for less DPS on the adds and a really small gain on the boss? I think there must be something more, so what does the third tank really do?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by caractacus View Post
    I've been a casual wow player for a long time now and usually play tank or healer (have dabbled in a bit of dps) But I've never really fully understood why people put so much emphasis on the amount of dps they can put out. I remember the days when OOM used to a be problem so the quicker you kill a boss the less this was an issue but it's doens't seem to be a problem nowadays. I also understand there are some elements to a boss fight where you have to dps something down within a certain time or basically it's a wipe so I can see the need there. I just struggle in any other way to see why dps is so important. If it takes 10 minutes or 11 minutes to kill a boss what difference does it make?
    thats because in current wow its all about overgearing the f..... out o encounter and praying boss dies due to crazy dps while ignoring every single mechanic that is in the isntance

    people are basickly turning every single encounter into tank&spank and pray the mechanic dont killl people who ignore them

    difference is back then people paid atention to mechanics instead just dps-meters.

    answear yourself this - when was the last time that you wiped due to enrage not in mythic mode ?

  17. #37
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    answear yourself this - when was the last time that you wiped due to enrage not in mythic mode ?
    2 days ago. LFR Varimathras. Yes pug DPS in LFR is bad.

  18. #38
    I usually agree with the "do the mechanics right and dps won't matter much", but saw enrage on Varimathras NM lately, lol.

  19. #39
    so what does the third tank really do?
    It lets you keep pulling the boss when one of them decides to leave :-)

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    Actually the biggest standard I need to follow is that the day of the week is Tuesday or Wednesday during peak hours.

    The average ilvl of applicants on LFG atarts about 960 for what I advertise, and then drops about 2 ilvls/day.

  20. #40
    Deleted
    Obviosly it's a very rng fight but like always most death happen because people make mistakes. Be it lightning or whatever.

    Something you notice in pugs is that people are bad at the game, no matter what achievements or itemlevel they have.

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