Demons without Sargeras - Still a massive threat

[Aucald]

No i don't like villains who can't be defeated. I like villains who can live up to their fame. And who can challenge hero on something more than "easy". Its generally good for story, and makes you invested when you actually root for hero, rather than being sure about his or her victory.

Although you seem to have concluded your opinion in way no longer open to refinement, I think I've made a compelling case that the heroes' victory over the Legion was neither easy, and that the Legion were presented as a legitimate threat in all three phases of the story-arc.

As it is, legion is best summed by this:
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/2988663
The entire problem is that im not mad.

That link doesn't work.

Legion is goddamn pathetic, their streak of losses made it feel as buildup for some 80's believe in yourself story. I half expected some old, blind black guy in a wheelchair approach KJ, and decide to train him after hearing his sad story. They fail so hard, the literally made him sympathetic (with big focus on pathetic part) and that's not good for a villain.

I actually liked Kil'jaeden's brief foray into sympathetic acceptance of his fate following his defeat. He didn't cower from what he felt had to be done, he only decided to do it on his terms in the time he had left. Recognizing his own folly when it was far too late for him to do anything about it concluded his story with a degree of poignancy. I agree that some kind of redemption arc for him wouldn't have gone over so well - but fortunately that didn't happen.

They killed 2 most important characters and tirion we killed...all of their most important lore characters ? Like literally all ? Jaraxxus got away due to being meme, but thats pretty much it for legion having any characters. That's....not too good for their image of dangerous foe.

Technically we only conclusively imprisoned Sargeras and (probably) Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. Argus was never proven a place where demonic essences were dispersed on death - and since the named demons we killed were either before that or while Antorus was functional and active it's possible the bulk of them are still regenerating in the Nether. The head of the beast has been removed, but its many coils may still remain to bedevil the heroes in other settings.

It doesn't matter how many gambits and operations they had, because they ALL failed. In WC3, at very least scourge operation was full success. In legion we have failure after failure after failure. We had no breath of fresh air with them actually doing something right.

That's an interesting parallel you keep bringing up, and you still haven't explained how you see the Scourge as having victories in some regards while you simultaneously deny the Legion victory in any context. The Scourge succeeded in taking Lordaeron in WC3 and that's a Scourge victory, but the Legion taking Suramar isn't a victory for the Legion? The Scourge are defeated along with the Legion in the Third War, pushed back to lick their wounds at Icecrown. The Legion take Suramar but are eventually cast out by the Champion and the Nightfallen Insurgents (in conjunction with Night and Blood Elven help). It seems very unfair not to extend the Legion the same courtesies that seem so easily granted to the Scourge, especially considering that *both* forces have been conclusively defeated by the heroes of Azeroth.

I by no means legion was supposed to be end of warcraft. It was supposed to be end of legion story. And by all logic should have been the biggest battle we fought yet. And boy blizzard fucked up with it. Legion didn't make "numbers of errors". They fucked up on every single possible occasion. Legion is at least 95% guilty of legions defeat. Heroes did only 3-4%.

I don't know if you've run through the Antorus raid, but it definitely is very high up there with one of the most epic experiences WoW has yet to offer. In the opening wings of the instance you can see far-off battles happening with Army of Light auxiliaries and Legion forces going on, giving the instance an organic feel like a living and breathing battlefield. That's not something I've seen before in a raid - that feeling as if you're part of a veritable army storming the gates of an imposing fortress. Flying the Vindicaar from wing to wing to take out objectives, and encountering a number of tableau were others are just as in the thick of it as you are.

So its phyrric victory because of some "possible" "impossible" outcome that will never happen. That's very....phyrric writing.

You had to rely on an external "omniscient" standpoint to prove your point, while I was talking about the outcome from the internal standpoint as the characters would be aware of it. I don't think Azeroth is going to do die in BfA either, but my character can't know that and so to them and most of the other characters living within the story the wounding of Azeroth is a very serious thing. It's a victory won at a ruinous cost - which is pretty much what a Pyrrhic victory *is*.

[Arrashi]

snip

Oh boy, i can't actually believe you went for suramar...hell, lets go.

Lets start with few simple comparisons:

Operation Scourge-go
Goal: Bringing archimonde to azeroth - Goal achieved !
Casualities: 1. Mal'ganis - result of inner struggle and power plays, not by outside hands.
Allies: Small cult led by a rogue mage at start.
Destruction: a) Complete destruction of lordaeron - in ruins to this day
B) Majority of lordaeron population dead or destroyed, headfigures of important factions killed (Terenas, anasterian, Uther, anotnidas - all of them directly killed by scourge agents)
C) Destruction of silvermoon city and death of almost 90% of its population. Destruction of sunwell thowing entire race into chaos. Consequences of that were being dealth with for years, including dramatic search for sunwells substitute.
Demon involvement: Minimal, almost exclusively as overseers, military support only at very end (aka last mission).
Extra: Prepared ground for further invasion.
Conclusion: Full success.

Operation Suramar-go
Goal: Securing nightwell and using illidan body as vessel for sargeras (?) - Complete failure.
Casualities: Everyone involved including majority of allied forces. Most notable casualities: Gul'dan, Tichondrius.
Allies: Almost entire governmet, support by vast majority of military.
Destruction: Small damage to few city districts. Corruption of nearby land. Unknown amount of civilians dead, but not a crippling amount.
Demon involvement: Deployed in full force.
Extra: Enemy forces obrain eye of aman'thul.
Entire arc leads nightborne to break stagnation of their race, obtain new allies, and get rid of their dependency on nightwell.

So here you go, you have nice and clear example of diffrences betwen success and complete failure.

Im well into antorus, and so far legions biggest victory is making me go hollow everytime few people get their trinket and i get nothing for yet another week.
First of all, this is not a first, or only example of battle/siege within a raid. SoO has literally the same thing, ulduar also gives us a great example of storming through fortress defense.
And while they may not be best examples, both SWP and BT had battlefields not within a raid, but at the very enterance. Even ICC has forces storming the gates.

As for antorus, army of light is seen mostly in background, and other than that they get bombed, and have this hilarious moment with turalyon.
And all vindicaar does is shoot a door. And if you per chance get raid break in front of soulhunter, you will wintness it not responding for being shoot at by legion ship which is single most obnoxious, and migrene inducing sound in game.

And technically legion ended with us sending literally all named legion members straight to hell, and antorus defunct. We got rid of command, of all named demons (and seeing how they don't defend antorus, its safe to assume more got varimathased). And if blizz decided that antorus isn't twisty enough for demons to die for good, they may as well completely give up idea of perma death in twisting nether. KJ, doesnt even leave a room for doubt, and as for official statement, archimonde is dead unless they feel like they can use him and then they will say he wasn't dead. Aka schrondiger archimonde.

And suspension of disbelief isn't really "omniscient" standpoint, its basis of interaction with story. And with all those world ending events coming and going, i don't think anyone believes azeroth getting shanked puts it in any real danger. But thats completely diffrent problem with blizzards storytelling.

[Hubbl3]

The Scourge are defeated along with the Legion in the Third War, pushed back to lick their wounds at Icecrown.

ROC ends with a Legion defeat. The Scourge are merely slaves to the Legion and the Lichking is actively working against the Legion with Arthas. This is not a defeat for the Scourge.
TFT ends with a clear win for the Scourge where the LK is breaking free from his prison and the efforts of the Legion to get him back under control fail. Illidan is defeated and flees to Outland to hide from the Wrath of KJ.

[Aucald]

Operation Scourge-go
Goal: Bringing archimonde to azeroth - Goal achieved !
Casualities: 1. Mal'ganis - result of inner struggle and power plays, not by outside hands.
Allies: Small cult led by a rogue mage at start.
Destruction: a) Complete destruction of lordaeron - in ruins to this day
B) Majority of lordaeron population dead or destroyed, headfigures of important factions killed (Terenas, anasterian, Uther, anotnidas - all of them directly killed by scourge agents)
C) Destruction of silvermoon city and death of almost 90% of its population. Destruction of sunwell thowing entire race into chaos. Consequences of that were being dealth with for years, including dramatic search for sunwells substitute.
Demon involvement: Minimal, almost exclusively as overseers, military support only at very end (aka last mission).
Extra: Prepared ground for further invasion.
Conclusion: Full success.

Operation Suramar-go
Goal: Securing nightwell and using illidan body as vessel for sargeras (?) - Complete failure.
Casualities: Everyone involved including majority of allied forces. Most notable casualities: Gul'dan, Tichondrius.
Allies: Almost entire governmet, support by vast majority of military.
Destruction: Small damage to few city districts. Corruption of nearby land. Unknown amount of civilians dead, but not a crippling amount.
Demon involvement: Deployed in full force.
Extra: Enemy forces obrain eye of aman'thul.
Entire arc leads nightborne to break stagnation of their race, obtain new allies, and get rid of their dependency on nightwell.

Let's re-parse what I was actually talking about, the takeover of Suramar City by the Legion:
Goal: Securing the Nightwell and the (forced) allegiance of Elisande and her people - Success.
Casualties: All of Thalyssra's fellow conspirators to overthrow Elisande, and almost Thalyssra herself.
Allies: N/A
Destruction: The initial Dusk Lily insurgency, control of Suramar region passes to the Legion-allied Nightborne and thus the Legion itself.
Demon involvement: Gul'dan and a Legion garrison to secure Suramar City and promulgate use of the Fel.
Extra: Events completely unknown to the Azerothian forces, only Thalyssra's survival allows them knowledge (and that only much later).
Entire arc nearly grants Sargeras a way to come bodily to Azeroth in a fortified and likely terrifying Avatar/Vessel.

You are unfairly parsing Suramar into the *entire* story-arc from beginning to end while viewing the Scourge arc only as a single act of WC3. In the initial run-up to Suramar Gul'dan's scheme to suborn the Nightborne, control the Nightwell, and set up the events for Sargeras is a complete success. It's only later, during the Insurrection arc, that we turn the tables on him. Similarly, later on in WC3 the Scourge are completely routed and their holdings in the Eastern Kingdoms change hands from the Scourge (and Arthas who controlled it) to Sylvanas and her Forsaken insurgency. If you apply the same rubric to the Scourge then it is also a complete loss.

Im well into antorus, and so far legions biggest victory is making me go hollow everytime few people get their trinket and i get nothing for yet another week. First of all, this is not a first, or only example of battle/siege within a raid. SoO has literally the same thing, ulduar also gives us a great example of storming through fortress defense. And while they may not be best examples, both SWP and BT had battlefields not within a raid, but at the very enterance. Even ICC has forces storming the gates.

Of those examples, SWP and BT are completely static - in SWP you run into a small battalion basically convalescing from their initial failure, and in BT you only run into the courtyard controlled by the Dragonmaw (which is what I think you're referring to) which is really just glorified trash. In Antorus you see battle raging on all around you in real-time, unconnected to whatever you're doing and giving the feel that as you make progress through your predefined raid path that other forces are also in pitched battle to stop you from being flanked, or just because the scope of the battle extends be you and your raid. SoO aspires to this but ultimately doesn't quite match it, as the attack on the Gates after downing the Iron Juggernaut is more or less an in-game cutscene as opposed to background detail. It's still cool, I agree, but not quite what I was referring to, either.

As for antorus, army of light is seen mostly in background, and other than that they get bombed, and have this hilarious moment with turalyon. And all vindicaar does is shoot a door. And if you per chance get raid break in front of soulhunter, you will wintness it not responding for being shoot at by legion ship which is single most obnoxious, and migrene inducing sound in game.

The little vignettes you encounter on your way to each raid encounter aren't what I'm referring to, though I thought those were interesting in their own right. As you're making your way to the first and/or second bosses, look around and down at the other branches or corridors you're not going down within Antorus and you'll see people fighting, little action set-pieces, and background details that make the raid feel like an actual siege unfolding around you.

And technically legion ended with us sending literally all named legion members straight to hell, and antorus defunct. We got rid of command, of all named demons (and seeing how they don't defend antorus, its safe to assume more got varimathased). And if blizz decided that antorus isn't twisty enough for demons to die for good, they may as well completely give up idea of perma death in twisting nether. KJ, doesnt even leave a room for doubt, and as for official statement, archimonde is dead unless they feel like they can use him and then they will say he wasn't dead. Aka schrondiger archimonde.

Both Archimonde and Kil'jaeden died within the Nether, which is why they are likely permanently dead - Archimonde because he rather foolishly brought the raid there in his Mythic phase, and Kil'jaeden because he's mortally wounded as his flagship is moving through the Nether back to Argus' orbit. But the named demons who died on Azeroth, on the Broken Shore, and (possibly) on Argus or Antorus? Their status is unknown - and there are a few demons high up in the command-chain that we know either escaped or are unaccounted for (such as perennial "fly in the ointment" Mal'ganis himself).

And suspension of disbelief isn't really "omniscient" standpoint, its basis of interaction with story. And with all those world ending events coming and going, i don't think anyone believes azeroth getting shanked puts it in any real danger. But thats completely diffrent problem with blizzards storytelling.

"Within the internal context of the story." I don't know if you're being obstinate on purpose here, or if I'm not being clear enough. Plenty of NPC's relate to you that they think Azeroth's wound by Sargeras puts it in real danger. Magni outright says so (and he ought to know given his new job and all), as does Khadgar, and pretty much anyone else who mentions it.

- - - Updated - - -

ROC ends with a Legion defeat. The Scourge are merely slaves to the Legion and the Lichking is actively working against the Legion with Arthas. This is not a defeat for the Scourge.
TFT ends with a clear win for the Scourge where the LK is breaking free from his prison and the efforts of the Legion to get him back under control fail. Illidan is defeated and flees to Outland to hide from the Wrath of KJ.

WC3: ROC can be construed as a defeat for the Scourge because many of their champions and much of their standing forces are obliterated in Hyjal by the combined Azerothian defenders. Sure, there are Scourge who survive it and the Lich King engineered a way to ensure he survived Archimonde's defeat, but I don't really see that as tantamount to victory (especially not in the sense the Lich King reckons or wants victory). They only "lived" to see another day, as it were.

WC3: TFT is also a Scourge defeat. Arthas loses his stolen kingdom and the allegiance of much of his standing forces to Sylvanas. He undergoes a desperate trek to Icecrown to aid his dying master (mortally wounded by Illidan's use of the Eye of Sargeras) and in the end is trapped in the Frozen Throne when he dons the Helm of Domination, leading the Scourge into torpor until WotLK actually started in earnest.

[Arrashi]

snip

You know, im actually speechless. And i rarely say that. This level of mental gymnastics is actually..admirable. And im honest here.

But to not waste anymore of my time, they keyword, as always is "nearly". And as it turns out "nearly" makes quite a bit diffrence.

Lets just say that following this logic, archimonde has huge success in HFC, because he enters draenor, and succesfully walks down the stairs.

[Aucald]

You know, im actually speechless. And i rarely say that. This level of mental gymnastics is actually..admirable. And im honest here.

But to not waste anymore of my time, they keyword, as always is "nearly". And as it turns out "nearly" makes quite a bit diffrence.

Lets just say that following this logic, archimonde has huge success in HFC, because he enters draenor, and succesfully walks down the stairs.

Well, I've tried to refrain from claiming the exact same thing for you in the opposite sense - undermining every Legion victory, pushing every protagonist loss under the rug, and generally relying on hyperbole and exaggeration to argue your point. But if that's how you want to have it then sure, let us agree to disagree and have done with it. You it see your way by ignoring anything that disagrees with your viewpoint, and I'll see it my way by dint of "mental gymnastics."

[corebit]

I would like to comment on a so called "boss" being a raid boss its clearly purely gameplay aspect of all of this as raids are anywhere between 10 to 30 people hell I can go do some raids now with 5 people, what is even the real versions of bosses? go look what the bosses are like when they are on farm even on mythic do they even have a chance? I think not I see them as my weekly punching bag. This goes hand in hand with why does my paladin have COOLDOWNS on abilities this makes no sense.

Mythic versions of raid bosses are the canon versions, and like I said, if we are to make them truly menacing the game would have permadeath. Meaning you get 1 try against the boss. You die, you reroll another character. You don't get to "farm" the boss if we are to make it super lore-accurate. But that's not how MMOs operate.

That's why you can't mix lore and gameplay together and conclude "the Legion is a joke, I farm dem bosses lmao"

[Hubbl3]

WC3: ROC can be construed as a defeat for the Scourge because many of their champions and much of their standing forces are obliterated in Hyjal by the combined Azerothian defenders. Sure, there are Scourge who survive it and the Lich King engineered a way to ensure he survived Archimonde's defeat, but I don't really see that as tantamount to victory (especially not in the sense the Lich King reckons or wants victory). They only "lived" to see another day, as it were.

WC3: TFT is also a Scourge defeat. Arthas loses his stolen kingdom and the allegiance of much of his standing forces to Sylvanas. He undergoes a desperate trek to Icecrown to aid his dying master (mortally wounded by Illidan's use of the Eye of Sargeras) and in the end is trapped in the Frozen Throne when he dons the Helm of Domination, leading the Scourge into torpor until WotLK actually started in earnest.

"Many of their champions"? Who? The one Lich at Hyjal? "Desperate track?" He wrecks all resistance and strikes a cirppeling blow to the forces of Illidan, Kael and Vashj. AND foils the Legion's plans, once again.

Also Arthas does not become trapped or imprisoned on the Throne, he just chills there. The foot shoildiers of the scourge don't matter, the LK does and he comes of stronger after both games.

I'm sorry but both these cases are not a loss for the Scourge, a force that came unwilling into the world because Ner'zuhl had no choice and as the LK he did everything he could to scheme against his Masters with the clear goal to defeat the Legion and to break free from the shackles. Both which he accomblished in WC3.

[Aucald]

"Many of their champions"? Who? The one Lich at Hyjal? "Desperate track?" He wrecks all resistance and strikes a cirppeling blow to the forces of Illidan, Kael and Vashj. AND foils the Legion's plans, once again.

Also Arthas does not become trapped or imprisoned on the Throne, he just chills there. The foot shoildiers of the scourge don't matter, the LK does and he comes of stronger after both games.

I'm sorry but both these cases are not a loss for the Scourge, a force that came unwilling into the world because Ner'zuhl had no choice and as the LK he did everything he could to scheme against his Masters with the clear goal to defeat the Legion and to break free from the shackles. Both which he accomblished in WC3.

The point of the Scourge in WC3 was to "soften up" the defending nations of Azeroth so that the planned invasion of the world go that much easier for the Legion. Since the Legion is defeated at Hyjal and their Scourge auxiliaries are destroyed by the combined might of the Alliance and Horde, the Scourge failed the very purpose of its existence. In WC3:TFT Arthas himself was almost killed by Sylvanas in a coup attempt and had to journey to Icecrown as his powers were dwindling away because the Lich King was dying due to Illidan's actions combined with the removal of Frostmourne from the Frozen Throne itself. Though he does make an impressive trek of it through sheer will and gall, it's still a retreat from the claimed land of Lordaeron and he subsequently loses both Loredaeron and the Forsaken to Sylvanas because of it.

Arthas is constrained to the Frozen Throne while Ner'zhul plays out his game to try to come out on top of their particular "merger," and once Arthas wins that battle he does begin consolidating his strength and growing in power. He then reaches out with said power and attacks both the Horde and Alliance (in the lead-in event to WotLK) and is once more repulsed, ending with exhorting the Warchief and High King to bring their armies to Northrend. The Horde and Alliance oblige him, and even though this is all designed as a trap for their greatest heroes they still manage to take the fight straight to Icecrown Citadel and kill the Lich King in his very home.

[Sigxy]

Oh boy, i can't actually believe you went for suramar...hell, lets go.

-SNIP-

And this is why I think it's a really really really bad idea that we get these huge threats in WoW! They can't cause as much damage to Azeroth as they were 'allowed' to in WC3, because since it's a full Legion invasion, there would've been a lot more damage than what happened in WC3 and Blizzard would have to remake so much of the old world. Now granted, they did mess up some things on the broken isles but... it's not that much. x_x

We should've just kept the biggest, meanest things away and always let them loom around so it always feels like there is a threat out there. Always have some kind of fear that the demons, or whatever, might still return someday. As of now, the Legion is just... meh. We've beaten them on their home planet and got rid of their leader, I'm pretty sure for the next few generations on Azeroth, people have the mentality of "You do not frighten me, demon."